Not suited to development?

LegacyUser

This isn't a work problem as such;I am working in IT as a developer. However I am trying to get a better job as the pay where I am is not great. I worked before in a tech support job with some development but it wasn't with a very advanced language (VB). I wanted to get into a more demanding area and I succeeded eventually in getting this position (I now code in C#).
It was easy to get this job as I wasn't asked too many technical questions in the interview as my boss knows nothing about development. I've overcome many challenges in my present position; I fixed a lot of bugs and I have added new features to the software.
I don't think I am a natural programmer though (I was always hopeless at maths). I managed to get my degree (with an IT, not a University). I didn't have to repeat any subjects; I got a 2:2 in the end but could have got a 2:1 if was more committed (all my friends dropped out in the final year).
I have problems in interviews with technical tests; e.g. find what is wrong with this block of code, write some code etc. Also I am hopeless at any of those numerical psychometric tests.
This has prevented me getting a better job as for a job as a developer because employers nearly always ask the candidate to complete one of these tests (I was just lucky in the job I am in now that I wasn't asked to).
It's always the same;I do quite well in answering development questions and describing what I do in my current job. I know the basics like what's a trigger,what's an inner join, datatypes etc.
I always go down on the written technical test. I try to prepare for it beforehand by swotting up on all those kind of development tests but as you know it's almost impossible to predict what they will ask.
I think I am only fooling myself that I am a developer, I'm not any good at it. I don't know what I am suited to really. Maybe I could be an IT Trainer but I would have to leave my current job and re-train with no guarantee of a job at the end of it.
I am upset and disillusioned. I feel stupid and inadequate.

Eoin

I feel stupid and inadequate.

I'm sure you're not, maybe you just haven't had the right education. What was your degree in?

It sounds like you've had to concentrate on learning particular languages or technologies, without the chance to learn about development in general. For example, you might be able to learn how to do something very specific in C#, but not exactly why you'd do it that way and how you could apply that to other problems etc.

There's lots of techies on this forum who might be able to offer better advice, but maybe you should take a step back and look at doing some more generic development training that would help you develop the right mindset, rather than concentrating on specific technologies.

But all of that is pointless if you don't enjoy development. You can learn to be a good developer but you have to be into it.

LegacyUser

Eoin wrote: »

I'm sure you're not, maybe you just haven't had the right education. What was your degree in?

Software Dev

Eoin wrote: »

It sounds like you've had to concentrate on learning particular languages or technologies, without the chance to learn about development in general. For example, you might be able to learn how to do something very specific in C#, but not exactly why you'd do it that way and how you could apply that to other problems etc.

There's lots of techies on this forum who might be able to offer better advice, but maybe you should take a step back and look at doing some more generic development training that would help you develop the right mindset, rather than concentrating on specific technologies.

But all of that is pointless if you don't enjoy development. You can learn to be a good developer but you have to be into it.

That's the thing;I do actually enjoy my job. I like getting things working and seeing the results. I take great satisfaction from achieving something difficult or learning a new technology. Like recently I had to write an app to automatically create msi's from a solution file (each one had to have it's code edited before compilation). I downloaded a VB.NET app and jigged it around to do what I wanted. It took a while but I pulled it off.
Sometimes it takes me a long time to complete a task; I don't spot some things as quickly as better programmers would. I have to google things a lot (what programmer doesn't?).
I am dogged and determined but it's more perspiration than inspiration with me most of the time.
I was actually always good at English so I don't know, maybe I am not just in the wrong area of my career but in the wrong career altogether.
I am really wracked with self-doubt.

C.K Dexter Haven

Only suggestion I have OP is get yourself into a network of developers and people doing a similar role you're in. From your post it feels like you're working on your own as opposed to part of a team? You won't increase your knowledge or confidence working on your own the whole time. There's a forum for programmers on this site, why not start there?
Best of luck.

stabeek

If your code is like your post, well I have a few comments.

The subroutines/functions/methods (i.e. paragraphs) are pretty good, well formed and all that.

However between them, there a bit of contradiction

I fixed a lot of bugs and I have added new features to the software

.vs.

I'm not any good at it

so i'd say there's a bit of lack of vision and discipline at work .. a bit scattered. On the other hand, you also display a recognition of possible improvement so I'm not convinced you're unsuited to it (yet).

Development is a huge huge area, almost every going concern nowadays needs software, and it's used in a myriad of (sometimes questionable, but often praiseworthy) ways. Some can be quite mathematical sure, but linguistics also plays a huge role.

Only today I was in this conversation about a colleague who's a programmer and also happens to write poetry, so this other mate of ours comes in and says they're opposites ... how can you be interested in both? I'm too old to get into those conversations, but it's a well know fact that God of Computer Science Donald Knuth took alot away from God of Lingustics Noam Chomsky "Syntactic Structures" for his work.

And anyway, why do they call them programming "languages"? You still need to convince me you're crap at programming, I'm afraid.

srsly78

OP most software developers are not suited to software development. If you like your job and are well paid then I don't see the problem?

LegacyUser

srsly78 wrote: »

OP most software developers are not suited to software development. If you like your job and are well paid then I don't see the problem?

I like it most of the time but I am not well paid. That's why I've been going for interviews; to get a better paid job. I have been unable to because I am a poor programmer. I get found out when I have to do a code test. I have never been a nerdy,fibonacci problem-solving type person. I know guys who are and they never had a problem with programming.
You may ask how did I actually get my degree and how did I survive this long?
Good questions. I am a hard worker is the answer. If I can't fix something I'll keep at it until I crack it eventually. I am also very resourceful.
I choose software development because I suppose it was "cool" but having said that I did enjoy most of my degree and made it through when a lot more talented people than me dropped out or failed.
It just disheartens me when I constantly fail at these types of exams. I should be able to do them,there's no excuse for it.
The only one I got right was a few years ago when before the interview I was given two days to develop an app and have it working for the interview. I got it done and the guy was impressed with it but I was beaten by someone else to the job unfortunatley.
I was also offered a couple of developer jobs based on questions I answered correctly in a one-on-one situation. I didn't take them because on both ocassions the interviewer was a p***k (my current boss, while not paying me well, is a sound enough guy).
Someone asked was am I working on my own and the answer is yes. This is another huge disadvantage when looking for a job as you can see the interviewer lose interest when I say "Well I work on my own most of the time..." (I could lie but it's not in my nature).
I also don't have any exposure to software development methodolgies (waterfall, agile etc.) or any experience of design patterns. The place I work is not like that (very fly by the seat of your pants).
Anyway, I have convinced myself I am a dumb-ass now so I just have accepted it. I am going to have to get out of development as I am afraid I will lose my current job and then have to look for another one and when I go for interviews I won't be able to pass those damn coding exams.

srsly78

I'm a software developer with 10+ years experience, I dropped out of Computer Science in college - so you are more qualified than me.

Noone is well paid at the start of their career, just keep working hard and learning. This is normal!

soto

I feel the same way. I still feel like an imposter, or I've pulled the wool over my employers eyes most days. I've been developing software for 6 years now, lead a team of engineers, and am technical lead in a Fortune 500 company.

Just keep your chin up and keep striving to improve your skills every single day.

Quick tip on interviewing, study up on technical concepts a few days prior. You don't have to be a genius, you just have to have a grasp on what the base concepts are, and show a huge willingness to learn even if its on your own time.

Take a certification in .Net. Even if you don't pass, you'll learn a lot. And if you do pass, it can help bolster your credibility.

tbh

being a software engineer is just like being any other type of engineer, be it mechanical, plumbing, hydralic - whatever.

Each time you solve a problem, you use an algorithm. Using a new algorithm is like adding a new tool to your toolbox - the longer you work, the more tools you acquire, and the more tools you have, the easier problems become. You may not see exactly the same problem twice, but you'll start to recognise patterns - you'll know what *kind* of algorithm you'll need to solve a problem. Once you've written a block of code 50 times, it's just a matter of fine tuning it. IMO, that's the *real* skill in programming - seeing a problem and recognising the right tool to do the job - and that comes with experience.

two books I'd suggest:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0262033844/ref=rdr_ext_tmb


http://www.amazon.com/Cracking-Coding-Interview-Programming-Questions/dp/098478280X/ref=pd_sim_b_1

certainly don't quit your job. It may take you a while to get the right job, so you want to be working and learning while you're looking.

iMyself

Bear in mind that the jobs market today is very difficult for those with less experience. Employers are more likely to hire a senior developer with an extensive cv. This makes it very difficult for someone who is looking to expand their experience. Employers need to show a bit of cop on and realise that its a two way process. The tide will change eventually but not likely to be anytime soon.

With regards to the tests, you are not expected to know stuff for which you have no experience, but if you are claiming to have experience in something then you need to be prepared to show what you know in an exam.

For example, you apply for a c# role and the job involves using Linq. You have no Linq on your cv, dont claim to know any Linq in the interview but then sit the test only to find a section all about Linq.
But put Linq in your cv and then expose yourself as having lied or grossly exaggerated and your cv will go straight in the bin.

Colonel Panic

Don't worry about not knowing much as a junior programmer. It's better to know now that you have a lot to learn! Don't be afraid to ask questions of your colleagues, even if they sound stupid. I would prefer that to someone banging out bad code and never knowing any better.

Don't be too hard on yourself!

LegacyUser

The thing is I'm not a newbie to programming anymore. I got my degree five years ago and I've been working in C# for two and a half years. I can't use the excuse of being a novice.
I bet the previous posters who are in development would all have been able to pass those coding exams/psycometric tests.
I have been thinking a lot about it and decided it's best for me to get out of development.
I will stay in my job for the time being but I need to get a qualification in my spare time. I don't know what area to go into (maybe training;I am good at explaining things to people).
It would have to be something easy though as I don't have the mental capacity for something too challenging.
I don't know how to go about it. Can anyone here give me some pointers or should I try the development forum?

Eoin

Is there a chance that you just don't have a good handle on the theory and concepts of development? That you've been concentrating on how to fix a problem or write some code, rather than why you'd do it that way?

LegacyUser

Eoin wrote: »

Is there a chance that you just don't have a good handle on the theory and concepts of development? That you've been concentrating on how to fix a problem or write some code, rather than why you'd do it that way?

Possibly; there's no structure to the way I write my code. I don't have a boss telling me what to do, we don't have code reviews, use development methodolgies etc.
I just get something working and that's my priority. I don't take much time to decide how I am going to do it.

srsly78

Just find another job so. The best way to learn is to be part of a good team (warning: this may backfire if you become part of a bad team!!).

LegacyUser

srsly78 wrote: »

Just find another job so. The best way to learn is to be part of a good team (warning: this may backfire if you become part of a bad team!!).

I still think I should be in a different area of IT.

Tar.Aldarion

walt_55 wrote: »

I still think I should be in a different area of IT.

I think you will find a lot of people feel the way you do and that it is not uncommon, you enjoy your job, that's what matters imo. Just improve slowly and keep enjoying it. We all fail technical tests believe it or not.

LegacyUser

I am keeping this thread going too long for some people's liking. Sorry about that :-)

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

I think you will find a lot of people feel the way you do and that it is not uncommon, you enjoy your job, that's what matters imo.

That's true but getting good money isn't bad either.

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Just improve slowly and keep enjoying it. We all fail technical tests believe it or not.

Thanks for the encouraging words but that's the thing; I've been developing on and off for five years now (I've been in my current job two+ years) and I don't think I have improved much. If I had I would have a better job. Ally that to my constant problems with technical tests and I am really beginning to question myself and my suitability to development. I might enjoy it but that doesn't necessarily mean I am any good at it.
If I am to change career I need to stay in my current job as I can't afford to leave and re-train full time.

C.K Dexter Haven

walt_55 wrote: »

I am keeping this thread going too long for some people's liking. Sorry about that :-)


That's true but getting good money isn't bad either.


Thanks for the encouraging words but that's the thing; I've been developing on and off for five years now (I've been in my current job two+ years) and I don't think I have improved much. If I had I would have a better job. Ally that to my constant problems with technical tests and I am really beginning to question myself and my suitability to development. I might enjoy it but that doesn't necessarily mean I am any good at it.
If I am to change career I need to stay in my current job as I can't afford to leave and re-train full time.

Compared to whom? I still think you need to socialise yourself more with other IT people- they could guide you with stories and experiences. This thread is not a bad start as you're getting input from IT people but I think you need to find out more about how others learn and develop in this industry but before that, you probably need a bit of an audit around your current skills and skill gaps. You might be surprised how much you know.

LegacyUser

C.K Dexter Haven wrote: »

Compared to whom?

I've been looking at the LinkedIn profiles of the people I graduated with. All of them are in better jobs than me. Admittedly they all went to Dublin after graduation (and have stayed there) and they were probably better at programming than me to begin with but still I think I should just admit defeat and move to a different area.
I was looking at doing the ICT Teacher's Diploma (formerly JEB) but I will have to do it part time and that's difficult as it is not run part-time outside of Dublin (in many places anyway).
I doubt if this Diploma is worth anything as I found on another boards thread that
"If you are seeking a job in a VEC run school or college (ie college of Further Education) then you will be paid out of state funds and hence subject to the requirements of the Teaching Council. From Sept 2012 all teachers paid by the state must be registered with the Teaching Council. Generally to register you must hold a degree in the relevant subject you wish to teach in or meet the requirements of a circular letter issued re your profession. As and from 2013 you will also need a teaching qualification"

So basically if I don't have a teaching qualification then even with the ICT Diploma , my degree and a couple of years experience in dev, I won't get a teaching job in a VEC, a school or a college. What's the point of doing it so?

Ray Palmer

Go into a QA role. There is a lot of companies looking for automation testers which is pretty much coding but not as complex. There are effectively a set of things you use over and over again. Having a coding back ground will make you like a whiz to the QA team.
Check out using Selenium and Python. Look at it like the guy in Scrubs terrible doctor but was a master in the morgue.
Automated testers are getting high wages compared to developers with more skills. Knowledge of how systems work but not having coding skills is really what a good tester is like.

cronos

Going to have to call bull**** on what Ray is saying here. If your problem with your development has been that you have not been delivering sufficient quality then no one would move you in to a QA role (Automation or no automation). You would have more chances of a BA role or a full industry change.

LegacyUser

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Go into a QA role. There is a lot of companies looking for automation testers which is pretty much coding but not as complex. There are effectively a set of things you use over and over again. Having a coding back ground will make you like a whiz to the QA team.
Check out using Selenium and Python. Look at it like the guy in Scrubs terrible doctor but was a master in the morgue.
Automated testers are getting high wages compared to developers with more skills. Knowledge of how systems work but not having coding skills is really what a good tester is like.

Had a look online and found one QA job near where I live but the salary is not much above what I earn now. Still, it's a start, I'll look for others. Thanks for the info.

Ray Palmer

cronos wrote: »

Going to have to call bull**** on what Ray is saying here. If your problem with your development has been that you have not been delivering sufficient quality then no one would move you in to a QA role (Automation or no automation). You would have more chances of a BA role or a full industry change.

You obviously don't know what you are talking about. Automation testing isn't generally about quality and more about quantity. The tests are written for regression purposes to insure functionality isn't lost and mass data inputs.

You don't have to be an artist to be an art critic.

Ray Palmer

walt_55 wrote: »

Had a look online and found one QA job near where I live but the salary is not much above what I earn now. Still, it's a start, I'll look for others. Thanks for the info.

Automation testers get paid a premium so make sure you aren't looking at regular test roles

tbh

walt_55 wrote: »

Had a look online and found one QA job near where I live but the salary is not much above what I earn now. Still, it's a start, I'll look for others. Thanks for the info.

out of interest, what do you earn now?

LegacyUser

tbh wrote: »

out of interest, what do you earn now?

Don't really want to say but it's below 30k. I just feel if I was a good developer I would have moved up the pay scale by now (recession not withstanding). As I said I've been working in my current job for almost two and a half years. My boss can't afford to pay me more so that's why I've been going for interviews. I haven't been successful so I have to swallow my pride and admit that I'm not a developer.
OK, so try something else.

Tar.Aldarion

walt_55 wrote: »

Don't really want to say but it's below 30k. I just feel if I was a good developer I would have moved up the pay scale by now (recession not withstanding). As I said I've been working in my current job for almost two and a half years. My boss can't afford to pay me more so that's why I've been going for interviews. I haven't been successful so I have to swallow my pride and admit that I'm not a developer.
OK, so try something else.

The problem here is not your skills, the simple fact is you do not go up much in pay staying at the same company, that is not how IT works sadly. It is not a case of good people getting paid better, it's a case of people who ask for things and negotiate that get better. Ask anybody over in the development forum. People on 6 figure salaries doing terrible code etc. If if I work in the same place for a few years your salary goes up a few k, could be 10 or 20 if you moved jobs, that's as far as I can see. It's sounds like you can actually do the job fine but fail at technical tests, same as myself really.

Ray Palmer

walt_55 wrote: »

Don't really want to say but it's below 30k. I just feel if I was a good developer I would have moved up the pay scale by now (recession not withstanding). As I said I've been working in my current job for almost two and a half years. My boss can't afford to pay me more so that's why I've been going for interviews. I haven't been successful so I have to swallow my pride and admit that I'm not a developer.
OK, so try something else.

A standard QA role should pay about 35k-40k an automation tester can get 50k+. You might need to get a test job on a lower rate at the start. Contracting could be an option and doing the ISTQB would help a lot.

Technical tests are no where near as difficult.

You can train yourself to be better at tests by doing them regulalry just google IQ tests. I have passed developer tests and I am not a developer so it sounds like a bit of a confidence thing and you can get over that by repition

LegacyUser

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

The problem here is not your skills, the simple fact is you do not go up much in pay staying at the same company, that is not how IT works sadly. It is not a case of good people getting paid better, it's a case of people who ask for things and negotiate that get better. Ask anybody over in the development forum. People on 6 figure salaries doing terrible code etc. If if I work in the same place for a few years your salary goes up a few k, could be 10 or 20 if you moved jobs, that's as far as I can see. It's sounds like you can actually do the job fine but fail at technical tests, same as myself really.

Glad I am not the only one :-) Yes it's true that in IT people do not get earn more by staying in the same job and "moving up the ladder". If they want to earn more they move to another job.