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Not suited to development?

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    #32
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,537 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    walt_55 wrote: »
    I've been looking at the LinkedIn profiles of the people I graduated with. All of them are in better jobs than me. Admittedly they all went to Dublin after graduation (and have stayed there) and they were probably better at programming than me to begin with but still I think I should just admit defeat and move to a different area.
    I was looking at doing the ICT Teacher's Diploma (formerly JEB) but I will have to do it part time and that's difficult as it is not run part-time outside of Dublin (in many places anyway).
    I doubt if this Diploma is worth anything as I found on another boards thread that
    "If you are seeking a job in a VEC run school or college (ie college of Further Education) then you will be paid out of state funds and hence subject to the requirements of the Teaching Council. From Sept 2012 all teachers paid by the state must be registered with the Teaching Council. Generally to register you must hold a degree in the relevant subject you wish to teach in or meet the requirements of a circular letter issued re your profession. As and from 2013 you will also need a teaching qualification"

    So basically if I don't have a teaching qualification then even with the ICT Diploma , my degree and a couple of years experience in dev, I won't get a teaching job in a VEC, a school or a college. What's the point of doing it so?

    There isn't any point now its 2013, what was the date of the post you found that information?

    It is true that to teach with the VEC you now need a recognised teaching qualification. It is also true to say that it is not a good area to be getting into at the moment. You would ideally need to be qualified in a range of areas beside development - including computer areas I mean - in order to get even a sniff at enough hours to live on. People are working in several different schools - with the nightmare of getting from one to another between classes - with only a few hours in each. It is not a good area to be looking at at the moment. There are even more cutbacks, schools are shedding teachers rather than employing them.


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    #33
    cronos
    Registered Users Posts: 2,719 ✭✭✭cronos


    Ray Palmer wrote: »
    You obviously don't know what you are talking about. Automation testing isn't generally about quality and more about quantity. The tests are written for regression purposes to insure functionality isn't lost and mass data inputs.

    You don't have to be an artist to be an art critic.
    You obviously don't know what your talking about as I do test automation for a living.


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    #34
    LegacyUser
    Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    looksee wrote: »
    There isn't any point now its 2013, what was the date of the post you found that information?
    About a year ago.
    looksee wrote: »
    It is true that to teach with the VEC you now need a recognised teaching qualification. It is also true to say that it is not a good area to be getting into at the moment. You would ideally need to be qualified in a range of areas beside development - including computer areas I mean - in order to get even a sniff at enough hours to live on. People are working in several different schools - with the nightmare of getting from one to another between classes - with only a few hours in each. It is not a good area to be looking at at the moment. There are even more cutbacks, schools are shedding teachers rather than employing them.
    Aye, probably right. The one place near home that I contacted about doing the ICT Teacher's Diploma are not running it because they can't get the numbers. Now I know why.


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    #35
    Hollister11
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Hollister11


    Just wondering OP, how are you faring 4 years on.

    Are you still in it?


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    #36
    LegacyUser
    Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    Hollister11 wrote: »
    Just wondering OP, how are you faring 4 years on.

    Are you still in it?

    You are really lucky I spotted this, I only check this section of boards once in a blue moon :-)
    To answer your question I am out of work at the moment. I left the job I was in when I first posted the thread (left it in April 2013 because the company went bust). I tried to get another dev job near home but I couldn't so I took a devops job doing Access/VBA but I hated it and left after just over a year. I was out of work for six months and then I got a contract job teaching web development. That finished up about twelve months ago and I haven't worked since.
    I am searching like crazy and I have done a couple of websites for experience but nothing suitable has turned up yet. I should mention that I am only looking for something near home (I am not prepared to move to Dublin) so that is restricting me a fair bit.
    I should never have taken that devops job, I thought it would be OK but it turned out to be the worst fourteen months of my entire life. I liked the teaching job a lot but it was only a contract and there wasn't anything for me when it finished.
    See I was never really a "proper" programmer/developer, I just hack and google things, if a top class developer did a code review of my stuff he would be horrified. It takes me too long to do things also. I have been learning MVC and angularjs but it is taking ages for it to sink in.
    I am quite depressed at the moment even though I don't have any money problems. I am not frustrated by my inability to get a job, I am frustrated by my inability to be good enough at coding to get a job (if that makes sense). I have applied for crummy tech support jobs and not even got an interview. I think that may be because I have done more development than tech support on my CV. The trouble is that dev job was a bit of a joke really. I only got it because I asked for a lower salary than anyone else and they got a tax break on me because I had been unemployed for twelve months. The boss let me get away with taking ages to do things. I would probably have been sacked in a proper software house for that.
    My mood is quite low at the moment and I have never felt less optimistic about getting back into work.


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    #37
    yosser hughes
    Registered Users Posts: 3,897 ✭✭✭yosser hughes


    walt_55 wrote: »
    You are really lucky I spotted this, I only check this section of boards once in a blue moon :-)
    To answer your question I am out of work at the moment. I left the job I was in when I first posted the thread (left it in April 2013 because the company went bust). I tried to get another dev job near home but I couldn't so I took a devops job doing Access/VBA but I hated it and left after just over a year. I was out of work for six months and then I got a contract job teaching web development. That finished up about twelve months ago and I haven't worked since.
    I am searching like crazy and I have done a couple of websites for experience but nothing suitable has turned up yet. I should mention that I am only looking for something near home (I am not prepared to move to Dublin) so that is restricting me a fair bit.
    I should never have taken that devops job, I thought it would be OK but it turned out to be the worst fourteen months of my entire life. I liked the teaching job a lot but it was only a contract and there wasn't anything for me when it finished.
    See I was never really a "proper" programmer/developer, I just hack and google things, if a top class developer did a code review of my stuff he would be horrified. It takes me too long to do things also. I have been learning MVC and angularjs but it is taking ages for it to sink in.
    I am quite depressed at the moment even though I don't have any money problems. I am not frustrated by my inability to get a job, I am frustrated by my inability to be good enough at coding to get a job (if that makes sense). I have applied for crummy tech support jobs and not even got an interview. I think that may be because I have done more development than tech support on my CV. The trouble is that dev job was a bit of a joke really. I only got it because I asked for a lower salary than anyone else and they got a tax break on me because I had been unemployed for twelve months. The boss let me get away with taking ages to do things. I would probably have been sacked in a proper software house for that.
    My mood is quite low at the moment and I have never felt less optimistic about getting back into work.
    Well I for one admire your honesty. I have a similar experience and I'm making ends meet in a job that's dead end.
    Keep yur chin up, you sound like a good person.


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    #38
    LegacyUser
    Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    yosser hughes wrote: »
    Well I for one admire your honesty. I have a similar experience and I'm making ends meet in a job that's dead end.
    Keep yur chin up, you sound like a good person.

    Thanks. You have to be honest about it though. I've spoken a few times to people in tech support jobs and asked them would they ever consider a job in development. I get responses like "Oh I wouldn't have the patience for it", "This job came up and I took it". But the reality is that maybe those people weren't good enough to cut it as developers (just like I am not). I apologise to anyone reading this who works in tech support, I don't mean to offend. I accept there are some in tech support who like it and prefer it to development.
    However I believe tech support is the IT version of low-skilled labour.
    Degree snobbery plays a part too. A guy I worked with in that dev job I mentioned is now working with a reputable company. I couldn't believe it when I saw it on Linkedin because when I worked with him he couldn't do an if statement properly. I always had to re-do his work because his code always broke or had mistakes in it. We ended up pulling him off development eventually. However he went to a higher ranked university than me so that made a huge difference to employers.
    I know another guy who was the most lazy individual ever in college. You wouldn't see him for weeks on end. He scraped through exams but is now working as a team leader. He had a brilliant technical mind and was a natural programmer. He picked up new technologies and frameworks in no time. He could go for an interview only having studied what he needed to know the night before and understood it all. He would get the job having convinced the interviewer that he was an expert in the area they needed him for. That's the difference between me and him. Fair dues to him, I am not jealous of him, only envious.
    It was in him but it's not in everyone. Not every footballer can be Lionel Messi after all, someone has to play for Cobh Ramblers.


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    #39
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    I think your problem is you feel you have to be Eric Clapton. Whereas all you have to do is enjoy playing the guitar.

    In life you are lucky in that you've found something you enjoy doing. A lot of people never like their jobs. Getting more money is a different issue.
    The industry has a problem in that it just wants the top 10%-20% of developers. Which is unsustainable, and frankly completely unnecessary most of the time. But that's what everyone is looking for.
    I think you need to find a place that wants someone slow and steady and not a rock star. They do exist, just hard to find. Some people are not good at exams. But can be good at work.


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    #40
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    walt_55 wrote: »
    ..Not every footballer can be Lionel Messi after all, someone has to play for Cobh Ramblers.

    A lot of Lionel Messi coders are poor at working in a team and produce poor solutions in real life. A lot of IT projects fail and people think they need better coders, when its not the coding thats the problem.


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    #41
    fret_wimp2
    Registered Users Posts: 1,905 ✭✭✭fret_wimp2


    walt_55 wrote: »
    I was never really a "proper" programmer/developer, I just hack and google things, if a top class developer did a code review of my stuff he would be horrified

    You, me and every other developer on the planet Walt.
    If the top two coders on the planet reviewed each others work they would both find flaws and things they didnt agree with.

    Most of us just "hack" things together, we learn from the experience, get better, incorporate those new skills into our way of working and so we grow.

    That you are aware of issues in your code is in itself good as you can work to resolve them. Fix the glaring problems you notice. after a while you will see more nuanced things that you didnt see before, then rectify those. this way you are always productive, and always getting better.

    I have 10+ years experience in IT and i still rely on Google. Why reinvent the wheel? if i have a sticky issue, google to see how others have solved it and adapt it to your situation. You are now better than you were when you first had the issue.

    If nobody reused other peoples work we'd all still be working in assembler getting nothing done.

    You dont have to be the best coder or even a great coder, just make sure you are productive and constructively critical of your work so that you get better over time.

    The only thing stopping you from enjoying coding, earning a living from it and getting better right now is you.


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    #42
    LegacyUser
    Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    Don't know if anyone is still interested but I got a job at last: not as a developer but as an MIS analyst. It isn't really what I want but I think there will be some development in it so it might not be too bad. There will be a fair bit of SQL in it which is not really one of my strong points so I am kind of worried but I will just have to get better at it(and fast). I had to do an online technical test as part of the application process so I suppose I must have done OK in that to get the job. Some of the questions were fairly easy and others were to do with software I have never actually used (like SharePoint) so I had to google for answers or else guess.
    I did a huge amount of bluffing in the interview (which came after the technical test) and I managed to get away with it. I think as a result of the technical test they were happy with my technical ability so I wasn't asked any specifics about the stuff I claimed to know.
    I said I knew SSRS and SSIS very well and also DTS (I don't). I have since gone through about fifty videos on them (with practical exercises) on YouTube so I think I know them pretty well.
    There won't be any web development or heavy coding in it as it is not an IT company but a big company with an IT division. It is possible they may not be using very modern coding languages and there may be a lot of legacy systems in place. I probably only got it because I was the best of a bad lot. It is a step into the unknown, I am s****ing it to be honest but I am determined to make the best of it.


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    #43
    Wanderer2010
    Registered Users Posts: 6,740 ✭✭✭Wanderer2010


    All the best with it OP, lots of people feel that they may not be suited for a job but after a few months experience and getting used to it they often flourish. Take care.


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    #44
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    walt_55 wrote: »
    Don't know if anyone is still interested but I got a job at last: not as a developer but as an MIS analyst. ...

    Tks for the update. I was interested. You climb Everest in small steps. Progress is progress. If you want an way into a development company in the future the skills as a MIS analyst will be useful IMO.


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    #45
    GalwayGrrrrrl
    Registered Users Posts: 1,519 ✭✭✭GalwayGrrrrrl


    Brilliant news- congratulations on your new job. You sound like a hard working, self aware kind of a person. I wish you all the best in your new role.
    Ps- I have trouble coding using Scratch so I'm in awe of your skills :)


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    #46
    LegacyUser
    Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    Thanks for the good wishes, hopefully other people that are unemployed will use my experience for encouragement. I was out of work since October 2015 but I kept looking every single day. I had to tone down my expectations a little in order to get back into work.
    That is my advice to anyone out there looking for a job; be prepared to take something that might not be 100% what you want and also keep looking every waking hour.
    This job could be OK, it might not be OK but just OK enough for me to handle it. I am nervous but I really need to stay in it for a few years at least as I have had a good few work gaps and I have also moved around a lot in the last few years.


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    #47
    Berserker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,046 ✭✭✭Berserker


    walt_55 wrote: »
    That is my advice to anyone out there looking for a job; be prepared to take something that might not be 100% what you want and also keep looking every waking hour.

    As someone who works in a senior technical role, I would advise you to go easy on yourself and take your time. Given that you have fixed bugs and enhanced the products you are working on, I suspect that you are a better developer than you think you are. I have worked my way up through the ranks in the private sector, dealing with lots of difficulties along the way and I have moved into a role in the public sector, which has more than it's fair share of new difficulties!!! As you progress, you'll learn to deal with these difficulties. In ten years time, you'll look back and laugh at the things that annoy you now.
    walt_55 wrote: »
    This job could be OK, it might not be OK but just OK enough for me to handle it. I am nervous but I really need to stay in it for a few years at least as I have had a good few work gaps and I have also moved around a lot in the last few years.

    Have you any particular area of interest in software development? What aspects of development do you dislike less than others? I know quite a few people that didn't enjoy coding, who went on to be really good solution designers.


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    #48
    LegacyUser
    Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    Berserker wrote: »
    Have you any particular area of interest in software development? What aspects of development do you dislike less than others? I know quite a few people that didn't enjoy coding, who went on to be really good solution designers.

    What I don't like about development is the methodologies like Agile, waterfall etc. I also could never get the hang of design patterns. I like creating web apps in .NET using jquery and angularjs. I still don't think I have what it takes to be a "proper" developer but I can live with that. I just have to find my niche and stay in it and I will get valuable experience. Maybe I have found it in this job.Only time will tell.


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