Ireland's pool of talent (or lack thereof)

djpbarry

Don’t know if anyone saw this article in today’s Times from Emmet Malone:

Trapattoni's troops look thin on the ground

His point is essentially that Ireland has been over-reliant on British clubs to produce international players for far too long and that the talent is drying up. While I think he’s a little pessimistic in his outlook, I think he has a point – Connor Sammon getting a call-up, for example, raised my eyebrows. I wouldn’t expect him to make any more of an impact than Cillian Sheridan did. All in all, while I think Ireland still has a decent pool of players to draw from, you do wonder where the next Roy Keane, Damien Duff, Shay Given or Robbie Keane is going to come from.

In my opinion, the FAI continuing to rely on the UK to develop players isn’t going to work – the pool that British clubs now fish from is a global one and Irish kids are going to have to be truly exceptional just to get noticed, never mind make a breakthrough.

So what’s to be done? The idea of keeping lads playing in Ireland as long as possible has been suggested before, but that’s just not realistic – as soon as a British club (doesn’t even have to be a particularly big one) shows any interest, they’re going to be gone. Clubs in Ireland aren’t going to be able to compete in terms of facilities or even reputation any time soon.

A better (and more realistic) approach is probably to focus on the rejects – the guys who are either overlooked in the first place or those who are let go at a young age in the UK. Keith Fahey’s a pretty good example of a guy who didn’t make the breakthrough initially, but went back to Ireland and worked his way back up. Granted, he hasn’t exactly set the world alight, but he’s a decent player and Ireland would be worse off without him. Meanwhile, Malone mentions Conor Clifford in his article – there’s a guy of whom big things were expected, but he’s just been released by Chelsea after a series of loan spells didn’t really lead to anything. He’s probably going to end up in League 1 or 2 and we may never hear of him again. Considering the massive potential this kid has, that would be a huge loss.

What I would also like to see is Irish players starting to look beyond England and Scotland – playing for a decent Belgian or Swiss side beats the hell out of a relegation battle in the Championship. But, the lure of the Premiership is something that’s engrained in every Irish kid – it’s going to be pretty difficult to shake that obsession.

roanoke

Ireland seems to be a fairly unique and unenviable position in that basically all our players have to fit the English mold in order to make it. The result is the best we can ever hope to be is a poor-mans version of the England team.

The irony of it then is that England themselves can't produce many top players and have to look abroad to find their game-winners at club level. Imagine a guy like Aguero, or Modric was born in England. I wager he'd probably be looked on as "too small" or "too weak" and then discarded early on and yet when the time comes clubs still find themselves needing these kind of players. I reckon even a guy like Robin Van Persie wouldn't be as good now if he'd come thru the English system.

And yet this is the development system we depend on? Vicious circle for us I reckon.

Liam O

For the amount of people in the country and level of coaching until recently I think we can be quite happy with the talent pool tbh.

PhlegmyMoses

I know it's slightly OT but Connor Sammon is a decent player and worth having a look at. He works very hard for the team, which is something Ireland has always needed up front.

I agree with the overall point, though. We haven't has a top level PL player come through our ranks in 15 years.

Mr Whirly

The GAA and Rugby have much better youth set ups than the FAI. Nothing will change until that changes.

We regularly churn out world class rugby players. A growing number of amateur GAA players are getting brought over to Australia to compete in a different sport they have never played before. Sure signs that these sports are better coached and promoted in this country even in the face of the undeniable popularity of football here.

PhlegmyMoses

If people are worried about this, though, they should get involved. People will point to the GAA as having a great set up but their communities put huge amounts of time and, more importantly, money into their local teams.

roanoke

I think comparing the sports is like comparing apples and oranges.

No offense to the Rugby or GAA chaps but I think there's probably a bit stiffer competition to become one of the worlds elite footballers than there is to do the same in Rugby or GAA.

Rhys Essien

What would be nice to see would be Trap and Tardelli getting a fews Irish kids on trial with Italian clubs.

Also OP, dont forget the 2 kids who are now at this moment in the Real Madrid and Barcelona acadamies.

Mr Whirly

roanoke wrote: »

I think comparing the sports is like comparing apples and oranges.

No offense to the Rugby or GAA chaps but I think there's probably a bit stiffer competition to become one of the worlds elite footballers than there is to do the same in Rugby or GAA.

I would still say football does not attract the same numbers of kids as the GAA does. The potential for good players is greatly reduced by this. Add to that the rising popularity of rugby and it's not a problem that is going away.

Amirani

We have a ridiculously low ratio of coaches to players in this country. The coaches that we do have in this country are generally poorly trained. I have plenty of respect for parents who help our with coaching and stuff but it's not really up to the standard of coaching required to create a better class of player.

I think players staying at home a couple of years longer would be of benefit to a lot of players. There's no substitute for competitive football and in most cases they're just not getting that in England. Many of the more successful Irish players in recent years have spent some time in the League of Ireland and I think that's definitely been of benefit to them.

Outstanding talents like Roy Keane, Robbie Keane, Damien Duff are always going to be snapped up. In their cases though, they were snapped up and started playing competitive football straight away, not sent away to the youth academy. We've been overachieving for years given the football infrastructure in this country and have always been reliant on the grandparent rule. In order to actually develop as a footballing nation, we need to improve the infrastructure here, in terms of coaches and facilities, and not continue to rely on England to develop our players.

Population is always going to be a hindrance. Countries like Denmark and Croatia have managed to create talented player pools despite having relatively similar populations to ours. Both have good footballing infrastructures and good domestic leagues. Both have had clubs in the Champions League in the past 15 years.

djpbarry

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

I know it's slightly OT but Connor Sammon is a decent player and worth having a look at.

He’s decent, but he’s not good. He struggled to break into Derry’s first team before moving to Kilmarnock, where he did ok. He’s not done much since then – managed just one goal in over thirty appearances for Wigan.

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

I agree with the overall point, though. We haven't has a top level PL player come through our ranks in 15 years.

It should be remembered though that the standard of the Premiership has risen considerably in that time. I mean, it’s difficult to imagine the likes of Eddie McGoldrick or Tony Cascarino playing for a modern Premiership side.

djpbarry

Mr Whirly wrote: »

We regularly churn out world class rugby players.

That’s not really a meaningful comparison though – there are far fewer rugby players in the world than there are footballers.

DyldeBrill

Don't agree with comparing Sheridan with Connor Dammon! I expect Sammon to have a good game, he's getting better and better and he's matured a lot since going to Derby!

I'm confident he'll do well !

roanoke

Mr Whirly wrote: »

I would still say football does not attract the same numbers of kids as the GAA does. The potential for good players is greatly reduced by this. Add to that the rising popularity of rugby and it's not a problem that is going away.

Absolutely. I'm sure there's is many potential professional footballers who were lost to GAA (and possibly Rugby to a lesser extent) down the years. The other sports in this country certainly do compete for the hearts minds and talent available.

However it just when I see things like "we produce World Class rugby players" that's its like comparing apples and oranges. If there was only about 8 decent footballing sides in the world (and half of them had populations comparable to us) then I'd imagine Ireland would be producing plenty of "world class" players too.

Amirani

Mr Whirly wrote: »

I would still say football does not attract the same numbers of kids as the GAA does. The potential for good players is greatly reduced by this. Add to that the rising popularity of rugby and it's not a problem that is going away.

Football is the highest participation sport among kids in Ireland.

Mr Whirly

Fair enough argument but the main point I was trying making is that in the FAI are going to struggle even more to attract youth players.

Rugby is still in it's infancy as a professional sport and if it continues to grow at the rate it has done in this country over the last 15 years I think football will be in further trouble.

PhlegmyMoses

djpbarry wrote: »

It should be remembered though that the standard of the Premiership has risen considerably in that time. I mean, it’s difficult to imagine the likes of Eddie McGoldrick or Tony Cascarino playing for a modern Premiership side.

Yeah but we were always bringing through at least one or two players worthy of most other teams. Whether it was Giles in the 60s/70s, Brady and McGrath in the 80s or the two Keanes and Duff in the 90s. The last 15 years has seen that tradition cease.

Mr Whirly

NiallSparky wrote: »

Football is the highest participation sport among kids in Ireland.

Do you have anything to back that up?

It certainly wasn't amongst my friends growing up.

Rhys Essien

Alternative team that Trap has not played or doesnt know that they are Irish .

Doyle
Moloney
Stephens
O'Brien
Harte
Doran
Maguire
Heffernan
M Doyle
Madden(one of top scorers in League 1)
Clarke(one of top scorers in League 1)

We are not that thin on the ground yet.

applehunter

u-21's have beaten Holland 3-0

Let's not despair.

roanoke

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Yeah but we were always bringing through at least one or two players worthy of most other teams. Whether it was Giles in the 60s/70s, Brady and McGrath in the 80s or the two Keanes and Duff in the 90s. The last 15 years has seen that tradition cease.

I think the central African influx to the prem has killed that. Ireland traditionally produced some of the best central midfielders and target-men in the British game. However coincidentally so do a lot of the central African countries. If you want a big targetman or a ball-winner you're as likely to go to the Ivory Coast nowadays.

flas

NiallSparky wrote: »

We have a ridiculously low ratio of coaches to players in this country. The coaches that we do have in this country are generally poorly trained. I have plenty of respect for parents who help our with coaching and stuff but it's not really up to the standard of coaching required to create a better class of player.

I think players staying at home a couple of years longer would be of benefit to a lot of players. There's no substitute for competitive football and in most cases they're just not getting that in England. Many of the more successful Irish players in recent years have spent some time in the League of Ireland and I think that's definitely been of benefit to them.

Outstanding talents like Roy Keane, Robbie Keane, Damien Duff are always going to be snapped up. In their cases though, they were snapped up and started playing competitive football straight away, not sent away to the youth academy. We've been overachieving for years given the football infrastructure in this country and have always been reliant on the grandparent rule. In order to actually develop as a footballing nation, we need to improve the infrastructure here, in terms of coaches and facilities, and not continue to rely on England to develop our players.

Population is always going to be a hindrance. Countries like Denmark and Croatia have managed to create talented player pools despite having relatively similar populations to ours. Both have good footballing infrastructures and good domestic leagues. Both have had clubs in the Champions League in the past 15 years.

Don't think some of your points hold true anymore,what with the rapid rise in coachs doing their badges in this country!I'm nearly sure and someone can correct me if I'm wrong but people have to have at least startedtheir oachin badges to be able to coach kids nowadays!?

eyescreamcone

Mr Whirly wrote: »

Do you have anything to back that up?

It certainly wasn't amongst my friends growing up.

I don't have a link but I think it's well known that football has much more participants than all other sports.

Just look at the fixture lists - much more football games (schoolboy and adult) than the other sports.

Rugby is still very much in the minority - there are more GAA clubs in County Cork than rugby clubs in Ireland.

TaosHum

djpbarry wrote: »

What I would also like to see is Irish players starting to look beyond England and Scotland – playing for a decent Belgian or Swiss side beats the hell out of a relegation battle in the Championship. But, the lure of the Premiership is something that’s engrained in every Irish kid – it’s going to be pretty difficult to shake that obsession.

I thought about this myself, but there are a few problems with this idea and one is the language barrier. I don't think its too appealing for teenages to go to a foreign where they don't speak the language or know the culture. I've heard of many kids failing to settle in England, so I can imagine it would be even more difficult in France, Belgium, Netherlands or Germany.

Secondly and probably most important or all, is do foreign teams even want our players? Considering the poor standard of coaching and lack of emphasis for the most part on actually playing the ball on the ground, is it worth foreign leagues scouring the country for talented players they could actually assimilate into their brand of football? Would think its much easier for clubs in France to go to Netherlands and Belgium to look for gems than coming here.

PhlegmyMoses

roanoke wrote: »

I think the central African influx to the prem has killed that. Ireland traditionally produced some of the best central midfielders and target-men in the British game. However coincidentally so do a lot of the central African countries. If you want a big targetman or a ball-winner you're as likely to go to the Ivory Coast nowadays.

That's a fair point but it would only really hold true if we had a few players in the last 15 years who we could say, yeah, maybe with more games at the top level, he would be along the same lines as the players I have just mentioned. They simply haven't been there.

Amirani

Mr Whirly wrote: »

Do you have anything to back that up?

It certainly wasn't amongst my friends growing up.

Irish Sports Council report from 2011: http://www.irishsportscouncil.ie/Media/Latest_News/2012/Irish_Sports_Monitor_2011_Final_Report.pdf

DCU study:
http://www4.dcu.ie/shhp/downloads/CSPPA.pdf

Liam O

There are also plenty more good Irish players in the championship who I'd reckon Trap knows very little about. Would Hoolahan have gotten in the squad by now if Norwich were still down there? England have been calling up players doing well in the Championship albeit sporadically for a few years now while Trap calls up randomers like Green who don't even start for their clubs. This is something that merely attending games could fix.

MrKingsley

flas wrote: »

Don't think some of your points hold true anymore,what with the rapid rise in coachs doing their badges in this country!I'm nearly sure and someone can correct me if I'm wrong but people have to have at least startedtheir oachin badges to be able to coach kids nowadays!?

Any of the coaching courses I have been on its only been advised that the coaches have certain badges.

Granted with some of the bigger junior clubs it would be necessary to start the badges whilst starting to coach kids.

To me it should be essential for anyone interested in working with children to do some badges, however only if the money used to do them is put back into the grassroots level

Amirani

flas wrote: »

Don't think some of your points hold true anymore,what with the rapid rise in coachs doing their badges in this country!I'm nearly sure and someone can correct me if I'm wrong but people have to have at least startedtheir oachin badges to be able to coach kids nowadays!?

It is changing no doubt, but we still have a far lower ratio of qualified coaches:players than the likes of Spain and Germany.

I'd say our situation isn't too different to this, we're probably worse: http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/jun/01/football-coach-shortage-england

ahnowbrowncow

roanoke wrote: »

I think the central African influx to the prem has killed that. Ireland traditionally produced some of the best central midfielders and target-men in the British game. However coincidentally so do a lot of the central African countries. If you want a big targetman or a ball-winner you're as likely to go to the Ivory Coast nowadays.

What african central midfielders, mikel? And the only African target man would be Drogba and maybe Demba Ba. Hardly an influx

2ndcoming

Mr Whirly wrote: »

I would still say football does not attract the same numbers of kids as the GAA does. The potential for good players is greatly reduced by this. Add to that the rising popularity of rugby and it's not a problem that is going away.

Football attracts tons of kids. Kid's parents are the driving force of GAA recruitment, it's an institution. Speaking as someone who was scouted by a well known Dublin underage set-up when I was about 13 playing for my school and my country mother wouldn't let me go because "those soccer clubs are run by gangsters".

The GAA is an ideal model for the FAI to follow at grassroots level, it needs to do a lot more in that regard. Properly organised and managed tiered county, provincial and national levels from all grades from U/8 to senior. Doubt it'll ever happen to be honest, it's already too fractured and splintered.

Amirani

ahnowbrowncow wrote: »

What african central midfielders, mikel? And the only African target man would be Drogba and maybe Demba Ba. Hardly an influx

Essien, Mikel, Mahamadou Diarra, Frimpong, Yaya Toure, Tiote, Diakité, N'Diaye, Mulumbu, Diamé,

Anichebe, Cisse, Sidibe, Adebayor, Kone, Ba.

That's all I can think of for now that are currently playing. Do you watch the Premier League or just Chelsea?

PhlegmyMoses

ahnowbrowncow wrote: »

What african central midfielders, mikel? And the only African target man would be Drogba and maybe Demba Ba. Hardly an influx

In MF you have people like Mikel, Essien, Diop (when he was good), Song, Muntari, Tiote then a whole load of lads born in Africa who moved to France like Vieira and Makelele.

Up front you have Adebayor, Kanu, Drogba, Ba, Papiss Cisse, Utaka etc.

shanec1928

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

I know it's slightly OT but Connor Sammon is a decent player and worth having a look at. He works very hard for the team, which is something Ireland has always needed up front.

I agree with the overall point, though. We haven't has a top level PL player come through our ranks in 15 years.

thats being generous to say the least!

PhlegmyMoses

shanec1928 wrote: »

thats being generous to say the least!

I dunno, obviously he hasn't scored many goals but he has always linked well when I've watched him and ran his guts out with clever movement for the team. He obviously isn't on the same level as Keane but when you look at the likes of Jon Walters, he was hardly ever prolific but brings a workrate to the team that can't be discounted.

djpbarry

DyldeBrill wrote: »

I expect Sammon to have a good game, he's getting better and better and he's matured a lot since going to Derby!

He’s 26 – bit late to be “maturing”.

ahnowbrowncow

NiallSparky wrote: »

Essien, Mikel, Mahamadou Diarra, Frimpong, Yaya Toure, Tiote, Diakité, N'Diaye, Mulumbu, Diamé,

Anichebe, Cisse, Sidibe, Adebayor, Kone, Ba.

That's all I can think of for now that are currently playing. Do you watch the Premier League or just Chelsea?

Can't believe I forgot about Essien

G.K.

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

I know it's slightly OT but Connor Sammon is a decent player and worth having a look at. He works very hard for the team, which is something Ireland has always needed up front.

I agree with the overall point, though. We haven't has a top level PL player come through our ranks in 15 years.

Would you not say Long and Walters would do this too?

Liam O wrote: »

There are also plenty more good Irish players in the championship who I'd reckon Trap knows very little about. Would Hoolahan have gotten in the squad by now if Norwich were still down there? England have been calling up players doing well in the Championship albeit sporadically for a few years now while Trap calls up randomers like Green who don't even start for their clubs. This is something that merely attending games could fix.

To be fair he's been a starter for us most of this season and done quite well.

djpbarry

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Yeah but we were always bringing through at least one or two players worthy of most other teams. Whether it was Giles in the 60s/70s, Brady and McGrath in the 80s or the two Keanes and Duff in the 90s. The last 15 years has seen that tradition cease.

Has it though? If this were 1993, would Robbie Brady be playing in the second tier? Would Kieran Westwood be struggling to get a game at Sunderland? Would James McCarthy be playing for a side fighting relegation?

djpbarry

Rhys Essien wrote: »

We are not that thin on the ground yet.

Are we not? You’re pulling names from League 1 dude. I don’t disagree that Paddy Madden in particular is a good player, but until he proves it at a higher level, he doesn’t deserve consideration for the national team.

djpbarry

TaosHum wrote: »

I thought about this myself, but there are a few problems with this idea and one is the language barrier.

Doesn’t stop players from other countries playing abroad.

TaosHum wrote: »

Secondly and probably most important or all, is do foreign teams even want our players? Considering the poor standard of coaching and lack of emphasis for the most part on actually playing the ball on the ground...

I don’t really agree with that. The standard of coaching in the League of Ireland, for example, is a lot higher than it used to be. Go and watch Pats or Sligo for example, the emphasis is on building from the back, always on the deck.

Mr Whirly

NiallSparky wrote: »

Irish Sports Council report from 2011: http://www.irishsportscouncil.ie/Media/Latest_News/2012/Irish_Sports_Monitor_2011_Final_Report.pdf

DCU study:
http://www4.dcu.ie/shhp/downloads/CSPPA.pdf

So what these studies suggest is that more people play football, more GAA players play at a club. Rugby is not as popular as I thought.

Either way I think the problem has to lie at a better organised youth level as 2ndcoming said.

TaosHum

djpbarry wrote: »

Doesn’t stop players from other countries playing abroad.
I don’t really agree with that. The standard of coaching in the League of Ireland, for example, is a lot higher than it used to be. Go and watch Pats or Sligo for example, the emphasis is on building from the back, always on the deck.

The language doesn't stop players no, but given the chance of either England or France, I could see the majority of kids going with England.

I'm not saying all teams in Ireland don't put much emphasis on playing football. Pats are a joy to watch and have some very decent young players, but their are the exception rather than the rule. Sligo, although can play it on the ground, are not technically as good as Pat's in my book. Its refreshing to see a team like Pats playing that style of football, but you would need to see more clubs doing so in order to attract nations from further afield.

djpbarry

TaosHum wrote: »

The language doesn't stop players no, but given the chance of either England or France, I could see the majority of kids going with England.

I'm not disagreeing with that, but I think it's something that needs to change.

TaosHum wrote: »

Pats are a joy to watch and have some very decent young players, but their are the exception rather than the rule.

I don't agree with that at all. Hoofball is rare in the LOI these days.

But anyways, the problem is that the Premiership places an emphasis on physicality and athleticism ahead of technical ability, so the selection process works against small players.

PhlegmyMoses

djpbarry wrote: »

Has it though? If this were 1993, would Robbie Brady be playing in the second tier? Would Kieran Westwood be struggling to get a game at Sunderland? Would James McCarthy be playing for a side fighting relegation?

But what does it matter if they are playing for Wigan or Manchester United? They still aren't the level of player that I'm talking about.

I'm going to presume that by mentioning them that you suspect that by playing higher up the leagues and getting better experience, they'd become better players. For Robbie Brady, I'll counter with John O'Shea - given loads of scope to develop at the same club Brady played youth football. Became a solid if unspectacular player. I don''t believe, having seen a decent amount of Brady, that he would ever become a better player than O'Shea.

To change tack a bit, for James McCarthy, I give you Damien Duff. Played for a relegated Blackburn team but was still one of the best and most sought after young talents in the league. Could the same be said for McCarthy? He definitely looks good but by the time Duff had played 3/4 years in the PL everyone wanted him. He eventually signed for the team who dominated the next couple of years and scored a boatload for them. Maybe McCarthy can get there, but it is more hope than anything.

My overall point is that base level of talent, the kind of indisputable talent that Roy Keane, Robbie Keane, Liam Brady, Paul McGrath, Damien Duff all had just isn't there.

We could maybe get a bit more from our players if they played higher up the leagues and were given a chance. I'm not disputing that. We probably could have more John O'Sheas or Richard Dunnes and it would definitely be hugely beneficial. My point isn't that we couldn't have more mid/upper level players if they got the same chances as they got 15 years ago. My point is that we don't have any top tier players coming through, where traditionally we always had one or two close enough to the top end of the footballing food chain regardless of who they were playing for.

Ferris_Bueller

I actually think we have a decent enough pool of players to pick from at the moment, no real class talents such as Duff, Given or Keane which might be a small worry but overall I think it's not a bad pool of players to choose from, seem to have a few guys on the outskirts of first team PL football right now too. Williams and Carruthers at Villa, Duffy at Everton, then the likes of Hendrick, Murray, Cunningham, Brady and Meyler are all young players playing for good championship teams, hopefully one or two of them will be playing PL in the next year or two. I wouldn't be too concerned about our player pool, but have always said I think we will struggle for goals when we lose Robbie.

However I do agree 100% in that we cannot rely on England to produce players for us anymore, their league is the biggest in the world and they have the pick of players from all over the world, our lads simply will not progress onto first team football for the top half clubs as easily anymore. Could be a good idea to try and focus on the lads who don't make it abroad and come home, it will be interesting to see what Clifford does, I think coming back to the LoI could be better for him but have a feeling he will go to a lower league team in England. It could be difficult to motivate these players though, going from state of the art facilities with massive clubs in England and being treated like royalty to returning home and playing infront of 200 people or so and only getting paid a fraction of what they "think" they are worth, have often seen lads come back and just drop out of football completely.

Ideally I would love to see a national academy set up where young players can come and get schooled but at the same time train every day and live in a professional environment, if this campus that is/was planned up in Abbotstown were ever to be finished it would be great to have a proper facility to develop players and have our international teams train also. Another thing I would love to see would be if LoI teams would tie in properly with colleges/universities in their areas, providing scholarships and small allowances to players to go to college but play pretty much professionally with LoI teams. If players knew they could get an education as good as anyone else in the country, yet still play full time and get top level coaching surely they would think twice before going abroad, although the lure of the bigger english clubs will always be impossible to resist.

Jayob10

We are exactly where we should be. Feeding from the scraps of English football.

We as consumers make our own destiny. Theres very little interest in our own domestic league, so there will always be a reliance on English clubs i'm afraid.

You cannot expect rapid improvements until we have our own structures in place in terms of a competitive domestic league that will showcase the best young Irish talent, that casual fans will attent with the same gusto as they follow Man utd or Liverpool. Its a vicious circle.

For too long we have pawned our best 12-16 year old's off to English clubs basically asking them to turn them into international players. If some do in turn go on to become top players then it has ZERO to do with their development here. They are simply made for export and we hope they will be turned into the finished article for our national side.

Basically there needs to be a raft of coaches employed, grants in order to cover the costs of educating at least 5-10 Pro Licence coaches in either region or town be it rural or urban.

People may counter my argument by saying that the LOI representation in the national team has never been higher. But the glass ceiling for development is alot lower when you leave Ireland over the age of 21. Sure, Doyle and McClean made initial splashes but both have plateaued since and tailed off to an extent.

Sure, we produce decent players at this age, but the challenge has got to be holding onto the really talented kids in the lower age groups, coaching them ourselves in a very professional way and showcasing them in our own national league. They can develop free from the competition of South American, European and British kids who would be competing with them for first team spots in their clubs (if they were in UK)

The problem lies in the league at home and the inability to nurture the excellent young talent 12-16, who should be harnessed in a way to benefit our own league.

djpbarry

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

I'm going to presume that by mentioning them that you suspect that by playing higher up the leagues and getting better experience, they'd become better players.

Know, I’m saying they would be judged as being better players because they were playing at better clubs. It is often said these days that Ireland’s squad is not what is used to be based on the small number of players playing at top clubs in England, but this ignores the fact that the Premiership is a vastly superior league to what it was 20 years ago. For example, look at the (almost entirely British) Blackburn team that won the league in ’95 – how many of them would make it into a top 4 side now? Maybe Alan Shearer and that’s about it.

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

To change tack a bit, for James McCarthy, I give you Damien Duff. Played for a relegated Blackburn team but was still one of the best and most sought after young talents in the league.

Would the City or United of today be chasing the Duff of 10 years ago? I don’t think so.

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Could the same be said for McCarthy? He definitely looks good but by the time Duff had played 3/4 years in the PL everyone wanted him. He eventually signed for the team who dominated the next couple of years and scored a boatload for them.

A boatload? I doubt Duff scored more than 20 in his Chelsea career.

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

My overall point is that base level of talent, the kind of indisputable talent that Roy Keane, Robbie Keane, Liam Brady, Paul McGrath, Damien Duff all had just isn't there.

I don’t think we have a Roy Keane or Liam Brady standard player right now, no. But I think we do have potential Keanes and Duffs – they’re just being judged against a higher bar. Personally, I don’t think Keane was ever world class, but he knew where the goal was.

djpbarry

Ferris_Bueller wrote: »

It could be difficult to motivate these players though, going from state of the art facilities with massive clubs in England and being treated like royalty to returning home and playing infront of 200 people or so...

Ah here, things haven’t gotten that bad!

Ferris_Bueller wrote: »

...and only getting paid a fraction of what they "think" they are worth...

That’s the big difference. Even clubs in League 2 can afford considerably higher salaries than LOI sides can.

That said, playing for a top LOI side means a very good chance of playing in Europe, albeit the early stages.

Ferris_Bueller wrote: »

Another thing I would love to see would be if LoI teams would tie in properly with colleges/universities in their areas, providing scholarships and small allowances to players to go to college but play pretty much professionally with LoI teams.

Already happening. Pats are linked with Maynooth (it’s rumoured that Jake Carroll just turned down a move to Huddersfield so he could finish his degree), Tallaght with Tallaght IT, Bohs with DCU, etc.

Amirani

djpbarry wrote: »

Already happening. Pats are linked with Maynooth (it’s rumoured that Jake Carroll just turned down a move to Huddersfield so he could finish his degree), Tallaght with Tallaght IT, Bohs with DCU, etc.

Don't you mean Wicklow Rovers?

shanec1928

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

I dunno, obviously he hasn't scored many goals but he has always linked well when I've watched him and ran his guts out with clever movement for the team. He obviously isn't on the same level as Keane but when you look at the likes of Jon Walters, he was hardly ever prolific but brings a workrate to the team that can't be discounted.

he was one of the most average players that i have seen in the loi.