Ireland's pool of talent (or lack thereof)

Amirani

shanec1928 wrote: »

he was one of the most average players that i have seen in the loi.

Agreed. The only reason he was in any way memorable was because of the collection of puns you could make with his name.

BhoscaCapall

I know he's been injured for ages but if Stokes really is behind people like Sheridan, Keogh and Sammon... hell even Cox... Trappatoni is at it.

PhlegmyMoses

djpbarry wrote: »

Would the City or United of today be chasing the Duff of 10 years ago? I don’t think so.

Yes, they absolutely would. We aren't talking about a long time ago here. We are talking about a player who was playing 35+ games a season for one of the best teams in the last decade under one of the best modern managers around. Anyway, United just bought Zaha, City bought Adam Johnson, Liverpool bought Stewart Downing. Duff was considered a greater talent than any of them.

I don’t think we have a Roy Keane or Liam Brady standard player right now, no. But I think we do have potential Keanes and Duffs – they’re just being judged against a higher bar. Personally, I don’t think Keane was ever world class, but he knew where the goal was.

You are criminally underrating Duff and Keane. Keane was so well thought of as a kid that he was bought by Inter Milan. That never happens. He didn't do well there so came back and was pretty much a 15-20 goal a season striker ever since then. We have no players even remotely as talented as them.

PhlegmyMoses

shanec1928 wrote: »

he was one of the most average players that i have seen in the loi.

I also saw him play in the LOI and was surprised when he got the move to the PL from Kilmarnock. I wouldn't be advocating having him as our great white hope for replacing Robbie Keane but he is worth having a look at.

Francie Barrett

djpbarry wrote: »

A better (and more realistic) approach is probably to focus on the rejects – the guys who are either overlooked in the first place or those who are let go at a young age in the UK. Keith Fahey’s a pretty good example of a guy who didn’t make the breakthrough initially, but went back to Ireland and worked his way back up. Granted, he hasn’t exactly set the world alight, but he’s a decent player and Ireland would be worse off without him. Meanwhile, Malone mentions Conor Clifford in his article – there’s a guy of whom big things were expected, but he’s just been released by Chelsea after a series of loan spells didn’t really lead to anything. He’s probably going to end up in League 1 or 2 and we may never hear of him again. Considering the massive potential this kid has, that would be a huge loss.

Glenn Hoddle tried that with his academy. I think it's safe to say that taking a second look at rejected players was a complete failure. A few players were able to get professional contracts, but the fast majority never made it after the second chance. I suspect if we created an Irish version of his academy, we would have pretty much the same result.

Rhys Essien

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Yes, they absolutely would. We aren't talking about a long time ago here. We are talking about a player who was playing 35+ games a season for one of the best teams in the last decade under one of the best modern managers around. Anyway, United just bought Zaha, City bought Adam Johnson, Liverpool bought Stewart Downing. Duff was considered a greater talent than any of them.



You are criminally underrating Duff and Keane. Keane was so well thought of as a kid that he was bought by Inter Milan. That never happens. He didn't do well there so came back and was pretty much a 15-20 goal a season striker ever since then. We have no players even remotely as talented as them.

Not true.The reason Keane was off loaded by Inter was because Marcello Lippi (who signed him)was sacked that summer (after being there only one year) and there was a clearout by the new manager who was non other than.......Marco Tardelli

PhlegmyMoses

Rhys Essien wrote: »

Not true.The reason Keane was off loaded by Inter was because Marcello Lippi (who signed him)was sacked that summer (after being there only one year) and there was a clearout by the new manager who was non other than.......Marco Tardelli

Agreed but I wasn't really getting into the ins and outs of what happened there, tbf. It wasn't really relevant to my point.

djpbarry

BhoscaCapall wrote: »

I know he's been injured for ages but if Stokes really is behind people like Sheridan, Keogh and Sammon... hell even Cox... Trappatoni is at it.

I think the problem with Stokes is not so much his ability as his attitude.

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Yes, they absolutely would.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

You are criminally underrating Duff and Keane.

Ah look, I'm not saying they weren't terrific players on their day. I'm just saying they weren't in the "world class" category for a significant portion of their careers.

Francie Barrett wrote: »

Glenn Hoddle tried that with his academy.

I'm not talking about an academy though, I'm talking about getting "rejects" from Premiership clubs back playing football in Ireland, if at all possible, rather than them slipping into obscurity in the UK.

Ideally of course they wouldn't make the move before they're ready in the first place, but we have to be realistic.

dan1895

Jayob10 wrote: »

People may counter my argument by saying that the LOI representation in the national team has never been higher. But the glass ceiling for development is alot lower when you leave Ireland over the age of 21. Sure, Doyle and McClean made initial splashes but both have plateaued since and tailed off to an extent.

Sure, we produce decent players at this age, but the challenge has got to be holding onto the really talented kids in the lower age groups, coaching them ourselves in a very professional way and showcasing them in our own national league. They can develop free from the competition of South American, European and British kids who would be competing with them for first team spots in their clubs (if they were in UK)

The problem lies in the league at home and the inability to nurture the excellent young talent 12-16, who should be harnessed in a way to benefit our own league.

I agree with you to an extent but I don't think the problem lies in the league itself but some junior clubs don't want to send their players onto LOI clubs, they want to send them straight over to England as they'll get nicely compensated. To me this is something of an unnatural progression. Of course the naturally talented will make it but a year or two playing at the highest level in this country didn't do any harm to Fahey, Doyle, Hoolahan or going back a few years, Roy Keane, McGrath or Fleming.

dreamers75

dan1895 wrote: »

Of course the naturally talented will make it but a year or two playing at the highest level in this country didn't do any harm to Fahey, Doyle, Hoolahan or going back a few years, Roy Keane, McGrath or Fleming.

As ever we got this, Coombes, Forrester and Carroll next on the way from St Pats.

dan1895

dreamers75 wrote: »

As ever we got this, Coombes, Forrester and Carroll next on the way from St Pats.

Ah Doyle barely got a look in until he moved to Cork

dreamers75

dan1895 wrote: »

Ah Doyle barely got a look in until he moved to Cork

You only a sniff or a minor injection of Supersaint and your good to go

yohan the great

I think a big problem is in rural areas with no soccer clubs and lads find it easier to go to the GAA club with their friends. In PE at school we would always play soccer and a few of the lads would stand out and we all really enjoyed it but there was no soccer club within a 25 minute drive so we couldn't be bothered

yabadabado

yohan the great wrote: »

I think a big problem is in rural areas with no soccer clubs and lads find it easier to go to the GAA club with their friends. In PE at school we would always play soccer and a few of the lads would stand out and we all really enjoyed it but there was no soccer club within a 25 minute drive so we couldn't be bothered

Has that not changed now.There is 2 soccer clubs in my parish and a gaa club.I doubt there is a catchment area of more than 1000 people.

aindriu80

The only thing that can possibly work for this country is our soccer clubs to be more successful (i.e european football). We can't keep relying on English clubs. How that is achieved is really a tough one. At least some of the Irish players have played with Irish clubs.

noodler

djpbarry wrote: »

I think the problem with Stokes is not so much his ability as his attitude.
We'll just have to agree to disagree.
Ah look, I'm not saying they weren't terrific players on their day. I'm just saying they weren't in the "world class" category for a significant portion of their careers.
I'm not talking about an academy though, I'm talking about getting "rejects" from Premiership clubs back playing football in Ireland, if at all possible, rather than them slipping into obscurity in the UK.

Ideally of course they wouldn't make the move before they're ready in the first place, but we have to be realistic.

Keane's scoring record in the EPL and for Ireland would hint at something close to world class - whatever that means I guess.

When you look at the calbire of player who have scored as many goals as Keane in the EPL or as many for their respective countries - I think we can all agree he is in very good company.

Duff was world class for me for about 2-3 years. As well as ripping up the EPL with Blackburn and Chelsea he was playing regularly in the CL and doing so remarkably well.

BOHtox

Rhys Essien wrote: »

Alternative team that Trap has not played or doesnt know that they are Irish .

Madden(one of top scorers in League 1)

Welcome to the forum, Paddy.

Paddy Madden is nowhere near Ireland standard. I've seen him play and jaysus he is nowhere near international standard. A prospect for a few years maybe but atm he is nowhere near it.

We have far better options up front

dreamers75

aindriu80 wrote: »

The only thing that can possibly work for this country is our soccer clubs to be more successful (i.e european football). We can't keep relying on English clubs. How that is achieved is really a tough one. At least some of the Irish players have played with Irish clubs.

To do that you must spend money, money you will never get back. Also playing decent european teams doesnt get non LOI fans to games. So its impossible to repeat success in europe.


Success in Europe is getting to groups of Europa League, Rovers did it and even now i still dont know how they did it but they did. it had 0 effect on their attendances after that and the player they sold for decent money came from St Pats (see above we got this).

Vicious circle.

aindriu80

dreamers75 wrote: »

To do that you must spend money, money you will never get back. Also playing decent european teams doesnt get non LOI fans to games. So its impossible to repeat success in europe.


Success in Europe is getting to groups of Europa League, Rovers did it and even now i still dont know how they did it but they did. it had 0 effect on their attendances after that and the player they sold for decent money came from St Pats (see above we got this).

Vicious circle.

It was a good result for the league even if they lost all of their games. Regular Europa League for the league would help a lot though even if the numbers attending don't dramatically increase.

I guess a lot of it is money and also how appealing it is for us to attend the games.

GLaDOS

BOHtox wrote: »

Welcome to the forum, Paddy.

Paddy Madden is nowhere near Ireland standard. I've seen him play and jaysus he is nowhere near international standard. A prospect for a few years maybe but atm he is nowhere near it.

We have far better options up front

Paddy Madden as a lone striker with the ball hoofed at him endlessly *shudders*

dreamers75

aindriu80 wrote: »

It was a good result for the league even if they lost all of their games. Regular Europa League for the league would help a lot though even if the numbers attending don't dramatically increase.

I guess a lot of it is money and also how appealing it is for us to attend the games.

Your bang on tbh, Rovers have a nice stadium and even after embarrassing themselves in Europe 6 games in a row and earning a decent amount. The fans are not flocking to the stadium, rovers are a decent team, stadium is decent, its just not appealing......What else can they do......

Ferris_Bueller

djpbarry wrote: »

Ah here, things haven’t gotten that bad!
That’s the big difference. Even clubs in League 2 can afford considerably higher salaries than LOI sides can.

That said, playing for a top LOI side means a very good chance of playing in Europe, albeit the early stages.
Already happening. Pats are linked with Maynooth (it’s rumoured that Jake Carroll just turned down a move to Huddersfield so he could finish his degree), Tallaght with Tallaght IT, Bohs with DCU, etc.

Haha maybe not in the Premier Division, but for some first division clubs that is the reality unfortunately! Yeah I'm aware some clubs (probably most at this stage) do it, just was never sure of to what extent. Would love to know fully how it works with each club/college. What they have at the minute in Carlow IT with the FAI course seems to be working very well, producing a lot of LoI players from that course.

djpbarry

noodler wrote: »

When you look at the calbire of player who have scored as many goals as Keane in the EPL or as many for their respective countries - I think we can all agree he is in very good company.

Maybe, but bear in mind that Les Ferdinand is one of the all-time top scorers in the Premier League - it would be a stretch to describe Les as anything approaching world class.

Same is true at international level. Yes, Keane's goals to games ratio is impressive, but it's not as good as, say, Alexander Frei or Toni Polster, but I'd hardly call either of them world class! Hell, even David Healy's international strike rate's not far off Keane's, but again, there's no way Healy could be described as world class.

noodler wrote: »

Duff was world class for me for about 2-3 years. As well as ripping up the EPL with Blackburn and Chelsea he was playing regularly in the CL and doing so remarkably well.

He was a quality player around about the time he moved to Chelsea, no question, but things went downhill pretty quickly after that and he was poor at Newcastle (although to be fair to him, he had his injury problems). Hasn't had the same pace since. Don't get me wrong though: I think he's still a good player and I'd rather he was still playing for Ireland - he's clever and rarely gives the ball away.

TheDoc

Have to say the OP's post is excellent.

My sisters boyfriend proposed a project to the FAI of his own initiative, to help integrate rejected Irish footballers ( of mostly young ages) back into League of Ireland, or leagues abroad. He works tirelessly with a small staff and is passed on information of players being let go and pretty much gets in touch straight away.

As he explained it, when a player is noticed its all buzz and excitement. There is talk of money, agents get involved, the world is their oyster. But when it doesn't work out, its rather ruthless and cut throat, and alot of players find it hard to accept it.

Have to say I've the utmost respect for this lad, hes only in his early twenties and he is running a pretty massive inititive that could reap massive rewards. The project started reaping benefits immediately, and the FAI are giving him some more interns to assist, and even clubs around England and Europe are getting in touch with his department during the process of letting a player go, so that the process can start immediately.

He recently took a squad of 22 players over to Finland to take part in sort of trial/tournament. There was scouts from pretty much all over, mostly lower tier teams in Europe, but 18 of the 22 got offered contracts. All of these players had been let go in the last 6-10 months. Thats fantastic in my view, to keep guys tipping around.

I always feel the pain of returning player, my cousin was hailed as one of the top youths in the country in the 90's and went onto be a big success and win awards for the Liverpool youth academy playing alongside Gerard and Owen. Unfortunately he was struggling with a hamstring problem and when Houllier joined the club he didnt want to wait to see my cousin heal, and signed Riise and cut him loose. It was indicative that he came back to LOI and was an outstanding talent, and after a season still suffering from the heartbreak he left football all together. A top talent just wasted.

And I know even myself, after not making the grade, to which I fully accept, I figured that nothing else would happen and slowly lost interest in football. There was nothing there for me to get into, a project or programme, to have my name passed around to other leagues or divisions. I didn't cut it for PL teams, but maybe could have lower down the pecking order.

I guess the only downside to this project, is that it came from a 25 year old approaching the FAI, wanting to do something about it. The top cats on pretty big money couldn't even contemplate doing this with a budget, yet this fella is doing it for free. So hopefully the initiative is a success and it can atleast put a net around those returning back, to let them know there is plenty of places to play football..

djpbarry

TheDoc wrote: »

I guess the only downside to this project, is that it came from a 25 year old approaching the FAI, wanting to do something about it. The top cats on pretty big money couldn't even contemplate doing this with a budget, yet this fella is doing it for free. So hopefully the initiative is a success and it can atleast put a net around those returning back, to let them know there is plenty of places to play football..

Well Ireland does send a team to the FIFPro tournament in Norway every year, but as far as I'm aware, the squads are only comprised of out-of-contract LOI players.