Xbox One - General Discussion (NO DISCUSSION REGARDING PS4 - MOD WARNING Post 6903)

Underpaid Mike

Stone Deaf 4evr wrote: »

be great if its true, but at the same time, you'd have to imagine that these things are in production by now. the launch is less than 4 months away now.

For the 360 they changed ram from 256 to 512 less than a month before launch. Far from finalised and if you read the engadget article there were dozens of variations of the hardware in circulation just prior to E3. Time will tell. At least they are listening to the developers which cant be a bad thing

CatInABox

Underpaid Mike wrote: »

https://xboxuncut.squarespace.com/microsoft-asking-developers-about-an-increased-gpu-clock-and-an-increase-to-12-gb-of-ram/


Cat among the pigeons if this turns out to be true. Almost every other rumour over the past 2 weeks has turned out to be correct so hopefully this is too.

Would be astonishing if true, to be honest, I've never heard of any hardware project that has changed this late. It would also be a sign that Microsoft may actually be listening to people since the E3 debacle.

Still, rumours like this, I take with an oceans worth of salt. I'll believe it when I see it, etc.

On a total side note, the Firefox British dictionary doesn't include "debacle"? Really made me question my spelling capabilities there!

CatInABox

Underpaid Mike wrote: »

For the 360 they changed ram from 256 to 512 less than a month before launch. Far from finalised and if you read the engadget article there were dozens of variations of the hardware in circulation just prior to E3. Time will tell. At least they are listening to the developers which cant be a bad thing

Yes, now that you mention it, I do remember a story about the ram changing, I just didn't know it was so late in the day.

I suppose that if the specs were going to change, bumping up the clock speed and the amount of ram would be the easiest thing to do.

Would the first generation of games be able to take advantage of the bump though? 4 months to launch, and I'd say the games would be gone to gold about 3 weeks to a month before that, might not leave time to do both polishing and optimizing for the new specs.

tok9

If that is true I'd be more convinced than ever before that this could be the last console generation.

Reason for this is how easily they can change the specs prior to a launch. If they can do it before launch they can do it during it's life cycle by adding attachments or new console versions effectively turning it even more towards a PC.

That said, I'd be shocked if it was true.

Underpaid Mike

CatInABox wrote: »

Yes, now that you mention it, I do remember a story about the ram changing, I just didn't know it was so late in the day.

I suppose that if the specs were going to change, bumping up the clock speed and the amount of ram would be the easiest thing to do.

Would the first generation of games be able to take advantage of the bump though? 4 months to launch, and I'd say the games would be gone to gold about 3 weeks to a month before that, might not leave time to do both polishing and optimizing for the new specs.

100% no chance first release games would take advantage of any increase in Ram or CPU clock. Then again its unlikely any game for the next 1-2 years will be able to push the system to its limits as it stands let alone the rumoured increase in power that the article talks about. It just futureproofs the console rather than a short term boost.

Underpaid Mike

Bethesda is finding the transition to Xbox One and PS4 relatively easy, the publisher's vice-president Pete Hines has told OXM, as the two consoles are structured much like beefy gaming PCs. That said, developer ZeniMax Online Studios has its work cut out bringing new MMO The Elder Scrolls Online to all three platforms simultaneously.

"It's really not easy, but it's certainly much easier," Hines observed in an E3 chat. "I'm not trying to insult Sony or Microsoft, but they're high-end PCs, the way they're architectured. Though they're still in development, they're not done, they're much easier to develop for."

That's providing, of course, you're not working on all the machines in parallel. "They don't all play with each other. PC and Mac play together, but Xbox One is its own thing and PS4 is its own thing. The whole cross-platform thing is just a nightmare."

The difficulties of cross-platform development are age-old, of course, but they're exacerbated in the case of The Elder Scrolls Online, which must run separate servers for each version to avoid technical snarl-ups.

Being staunch upholders of the emerald X, we naturally asked for more as regards Xbox One in particular. "Are we looking forward to developing on Xbox One?" Hines retorted. "Yes. It's a nice robust machine that allows to do lots of cool stuff and put more cool things in the game." Pretty cut and dried, then.

The bulk of said Cool Stuff and Things will probably arrive after the console's launch, however, as developers sink their teeth deeper into the technology. "Much like Xbox 360, all the work that you do just helps more when you go to do it again. When you look at Skyrim and you go back and look at Oblivion, and look at all the content and what we're putting on the screen, it's a bit night and day.

"It probably doesn't seem that different, but if you actually go back and look, we accomplished so much more," Hines concluded. "So the further forward we go, the better and better it's going to be."

You might want to wash that down with some thoughts on how The Elder Scrolls Online makes MMO combat more open-ended and "flexible". In other news, Bethesda's game director and executive producer Todd Howard is working on something "really awesome". What could it be?

http://www.oxm.co.uk/57868/bethesda-xbox-one-is-a-nice-robust-machine-cross-platform-work-is-a-nightmare/

TNT2k_

Underpaid Mike wrote: »

https://xboxuncut.squarespace.com/microsoft-asking-developers-about-an-increased-gpu-clock-and-an-increase-to-12-gb-of-ram/


Cat among the pigeons if this turns out to be true. Almost every other rumour over the past 2 weeks has turned out to be correct so hopefully this is too.

This late in the game they not only plan on adding 4 extra GB but are upclocking the GPU? It's absolutely false.

The 360's RAM increased by 256MB, which was double the RAM previously because they swapped out the modules to get that. That's easy to do and doubling your RAM is fairly straight forward. The PS4's RAM was also doubled, so to add a strange amount like 12GB would require a new system layout to do so. Had they decided to double their RAM this rumour would've been more plausible.

Secondly, there have been rumours of heating issues with the eSRAM and a GPU downclock which MS inadvertently confirmed with their 'discovery' of more system memory totalling 192GB/s. To achieve that number the GPU must be clocked at 750Mhz, which is a downclock from 800Mhz.


But let's say that this is all true, it's July and they want to increase the speed of the GPU to try and bridge the power gap, this late when all of this would have been going into production. I'd be extremely worried about quality control as they would be rushing the console out without proper testing just like the 360. If they do that, they are foolish and there will be higher failure rates then there should be. Probably not as high as the RROD, but still an unnecessary failure rate that could've been avoided.

This is just a rumour trying to get hits. It's far too late in the game for GPU upclocks and adding odd amounts of RAM like this with no system layout redesign. The downclocking rumours are more plausible because it's easier to lower the speed of the GPU because you're not risking overheating issues, you can't just increase it as you please because these systems are designed to run at a certain temperature and you can't be sure the system won't fail if you increase that and the cooling methods which mightn't have been design for such a heat could compensate for the increase.

ShiverinEskimo

TNT2k_ wrote: »

so to add a strange amount like 12GB would require a new system layout to do so. Had they decided to double their RAM this rumour would've been more plausible.

What is the RAM configuration currently? 4x2GB? 2x4GB?

TNT2k_

ShiverinEskimo wrote: »

What is the RAM configuration currently? 4x2GB? 2x4GB?

As far as I know, and this isn't 100% accurate, the PS4 has 16x512MB GDDR5 modules and the X1 has 4x2GB DDR3 RAM modules.

So if all the configurations end up doubling the total RAM you can't come to the conclusion that they added 4GB extra, it's impossible to do so easily, you'd need to double it to 16GB if you want to swap them out without redesigning your layout too much. That's how this rumour is false.

ShiverinEskimo

Could you not just shift to 3GB modules?

FlyingIrishMan

TNT2k_ wrote: »

As far as I know, and this isn't 100% accurate, the PS4 has 16x512MB GDDR5 modules and the X1 has 4x2GB DDR3 RAM modules.

So if all the configurations end up doubling the total RAM you can't come to the conclusion that they added 4GB extra, it's impossible to do so easily, you'd need to double it to 16GB if you want to swap them out without redesigning your layout too much. That's how this rumour is false.

How the hell did Sony manage to fit 16 Ram modules in the PS4

TNT2k_

ShiverinEskimo wrote: »

Could you not just shift to 3GB modules?

Doesn't exist at high capacity. That's why you only see 2GB, 4GB, 8GB and so on. Depending on your configuration you're only going to increase in even numbers, not odd ones.

TNT2k_

FlyingIrishMan wrote: »

How the hell did Sony manage to fit 16 Ram modules in the PS4

Good system planning. If I remember correctly the modules were 16x 256MB at the beginning and it was designed that way because GDDR5 modules aren't as big in capacity to DRR3, so you need more of them to achieve the same number of RAM.
Also that configuration meant that they could double the RAM from 4GB to 8GB when the larger capacity modules became available, as was their gamble nobody expected.

Underpaid Mike

TNT2k_ wrote: »

This late in the game they not only plan on adding 4 extra GB but are upclocking the GPU? It's absolutely false.

The 360's RAM increased by 256MB, which was double the RAM previously because they swapped out the modules to get that. That's easy to do and doubling your RAM is fairly straight forward. The PS4's RAM was also doubled, so to add a strange amount like 12GB would require a new system layout to do so. Had they decided to double their RAM this rumour would've been more plausible.

It is adding 4gig to the existing config which if you read the engadget a lot of dev boxes already have. The config has not been finalised which is the point.

Secondly, there have been rumours of heating issues with the eSRAM and a GPU downclock which MS inadvertently confirmed with their 'discovery' of more system memory totalling 192GB/s. To achieve that number the GPU must be clocked at 750Mhz, which is a downclock from 800Mhz.

Not true at all. The clock still operates at 800Mhz for read only or write only. Its at syncronous read/write the throughput is 192GB/s which is due to the overhead of switching as much as the clock speed. Its a BS number anyway as there is no way on earth the GPU will ever be able to synchronously read and write at full capacity. Simply PR rubbish.

But let's say that this is all true, it's July and they want to increase the speed of the GPU to try and bridge the power gap, this late when all of this would have been going into production. I'd be extremely worried about quality control as they would be rushing the console out without proper testing just like the 360. If they do that, they are foolish and there will be higher failure rates then there should be. Probably not as high as the RROD, but still an unnecessary failure rate that could've been avoided.

110% agree, major concern

This is just a rumour trying to get hits. It's far too late in the game for GPU upclocks and adding odd amounts of RAM like this with no system layout redesign. The downclocking rumours are more plausible because it's easier to lower the speed of the GPU because you're not risking overheating issues, you can't just increase it as you please because these systems are designed to run at a certain temperature and you can't be sure the system won't fail if you increase that and the cooling methods which mightn't have been design for such a heat could compensate for the increase.

That is based on the conjecture that the CPU is built to run at a max of 800MHz, this is unlikely the case given what happened with the failure rates of the 360. They are surely not stupid enough to design a chip to operate at its max right off the bat (Dear God at least I hope not) Plus a cheap fix to a heat dissipation problem for an extra xxMhz of clock speed is surely worth it given the PR war they are being destroyed in. Plus its worth noting that the dev boxes at E3 and other places did not have the same hardware config in them, the majority of whats in the PS4 and Xbone are off the shelf parts so hardly unthinkable that there might be a third slot for Ram which they could add an extra 4gigs into is it ?

As you said though could be a total spiv rumour. Interesting none the less.

ShiverinEskimo

TNT2k_ wrote: »

Doesn't exist at high capacity. That's why you only see 2GB, 4GB, 8GB and so on. Depending on your configuration you're only going to increase in even numbers, not odd ones.

3GB and 4GB DDR3 modules have been around a while. Freely available from most manufacturers for standard PC builds. I'd imagine they are easily made in solder form too no?

Richard Dower

What i would like to see added is 4 or 8GB built in SSD, to store the OS and any apps/updates/patches etc.

The core of the system....and then yer 500GB HDD for game installs/normal storage etc.
*if* its a PC then it could massively benefit from a built in SSD....blazing fast speed and menus etc.

Personally i think thos 12GB bump is bunkum!....its WAY too late in the game, they have to make millions of units before November....these consoles are on the production line already!

Richard Dower

GPU/CPU down clocking/up clocking can be done in bios....simples. 12GB is weird...its just not done like this, you double up, adding more BGA RAM chips to the PCB would need a motherboard redesign.

Richard Dower

ShiverinEskimo wrote: »

Could you not just shift to 3GB modules?

they dont exist

Richard Dower

It should be noted the maximum addressable RAM for graphics cards...GTX Titan etc. is 8GB. the PS4 is tapped out!

Richard Dower

RE: RROD....these modern APUs are very dynamic...they dont run 100% 24/7....they up or down clock speeds based on thermals and need. if yer browsing the menus you dont need 100% juice....you only need 10%.....playing a game like BF4 you run at 100%, watching a video 30% etc.

As such RROD will be reduced alot.

bk

While anything is possible, I'd take this rumour with a grain of salt.

This rumour comes from just one post on beyond3d. There has been absolutely nothing about it on neogaf, where all the confirmed rumours have come from so far.

It is possible to upclock a GPU, but then you have to worry about extra heat.

12GB of RAM is a very weird number, it isn't a power of 2 as memory almost always is. 16GB would actually be more believable (though much more expensive obviously).

The most difficult thing about these changes is that these consoles should already be in manufacturing for a November release.

Richard Dower

Further...the only good reason i can see from going to 12GB is to match the PS4...as we know the X1 OS needs 3GB of RAM to run....one can assume overtime this will increase with patches and new features down the line.

So in 2-3 years it could be using 4-5GB....having 12 would give dev. 7-8GB free space, this matches the PS4.

I note its interesting the RAM clock at default is 2133mhz....which even by todays DDR3 standard is very good. Intel and AMD only support 1600 - 1866mhz currently (by default - not talking about overclocking).

Pushtrak

Underpaid Mike wrote: »

https://xboxuncut.squarespace.com/microsoft-asking-developers-about-an-increased-gpu-clock-and-an-increase-to-12-gb-of-ram/

I've got a serious case of I'll see it when I believe it. Would be cool, but honestly, my first reaction was to laugh. It isn't that easy to believe in fairness. Though, another thing that got me to laugh was...

Cat among the pigeons if this turns out to be true. Almost every other rumour over the past 2 weeks has turned out to be correct so hopefully this is too.

CatInABox wrote: »

Still, rumours like this, I take with an oceans worth of salt. I'll believe it when I see it, etc.

Username win. Indeed, the cat is in the box, and I think it'll stay that way.

TNT2k_ wrote: »

Secondly, there have been rumours of heating issues with the eSRAM and a GPU downclock which MS inadvertently confirmed with their 'discovery' of more system memory totalling 192GB/s. To achieve that number the GPU must be clocked at 750Mhz, which is a downclock from 800Mhz.

https://twitter.com/digitalfoundry/status/350930376518152192

Richard Dower wrote: »

It should be noted the maximum addressable RAM for graphics cards...GTX Titan etc. is 8GB. the PS4 is tapped out!

Indeed, but as you later point out, the OS overhead is an issue. Would be great if this were true on account of that.

Meesared

Richard Dower wrote: »

Further...the only good reason i can see from going to 12GB is to match the PS4...as we know the X1 OS needs 3GB of RAM to run....one can assume overtime this will increase with patches and new features down the line.

So in 2-3 years it could be using 4-5GB....having 12 would give dev. 7-8GB free space, this matches the PS4.

I note its interesting the RAM clock at default is 2133mhz....which even by todays DDR3 standard is very good. Intel and AMD only support 1600 - 1866mhz currently (by default - not talking about overclocking).

They can't do that, I'd say they've left headroom for further updates. If they did change how much RAM the OS needs old games would have serious problems running

FlyingIrishMan

The change in hardware for the 360 was done 12 months in advance, 4 months isn't enough time if they want to ensure as little hardware failure as possible.

pleasant Co.

Oh yeah, it would be completely bonkers to not have a final nailed down console in production right now. Even if it was a relatively small launch by a startup, hardware revisions at this stage would be a cause for concern - but with tier one of their global launch only a few months away the costs involved and the potential for failure are surely much to high, with the piss poor image MS have at the moment another RRoD scenario could be a fatal blow - nobody wants that.

FlyingIrishMan

They'd also want to begin production within the next month or two if they want to be able to get a few million for launch leaving a lot less time for any hardware revisions.

dregin

Richard Dower wrote: »

It should be noted the maximum addressable RAM for graphics cards...GTX Titan etc. is 8GB. the PS4 is tapped out!

[CITATION NEEDED]

bk

Looking into this, it seems that this rumour has been circulating for 4 months now!

Given that MS actually announced that the console would have 8GB just 2 months ago, then it seems very unlikely that at least the 12GB part of the rumour is true.

Pushtrak

I have lots of email notifications up for stuff so I get articles like this 'beauty'. The always online stuff of old is still being spread about as if it were in effect. I couldn't believe it was posted July 8th with the following:

Now, we learned officially today that the Xbox One will require you to ping a server once every 24-hours in order to them video games to function.

Edit: Yes, I know, how many people are likely to use that as their sole source of gaming news, but still.