Advice needed please :-)

Lily58

Hi guys, just looking for a bit of advice about an issue with a laptop.

My daughter purchased a laptop in December 2011. In August 2012 it was returned for a repair as it was faulty. It had a year long guarantee.

It has now been acting up again with the same fault. I brought it back to the store she had purchased it from and was informed She would have to pay €65 to get it repaired.

I had presumed that as it was the same fault which was identified under the guarantee, that it would be the responsibility of the shop to fix this?

Any idea where I stand on this? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Technoprisoner

as far as i understand all electrical goods come with a 2 year manufacturers warranty

Lily58

Thanks for the info and quick reply.

The shop have stated that after it was repaired the first time the warranty was extended by 3 months and that would mean it is out of date. I just can't understand the logic if it's the same complaint?

Technoprisoner

try printing this off ...it is an eu directive on consumer rights

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/smartapi/cgi/sga_doc?smartapi!celexapi!prod!CELEXnumdoc&lg=en&numdoc=31999L0044&model=guichett

and highlight article 5 and bring it to the shop manager you may get somewhere

Time limits
1. The seller shall be held liable under Article 3 where the lack of conformity becomes apparent within two years as from delivery of the goods. If, under national legislation, the rights laid down in Article 3(2) are subject to a limitation period, that period shall not expire within a period of two years from the time of delivery.

failing that get in contact with these people
http://www.nca.ie/your-rights

dudara

Irish legislation is stronger than European legislation in this case. There is no such thing as a two year warranty by law.

Warranties & guarantees are additional to your statutory rights, which take precedence.

OP, you are entitled to assume that a repair should be permanent. If it is not permanent, then you can reject further attempts at repair, and instead seek a replacement or refund. All this is assuming that the defect is a genuine defect, and not due to user error or wear & tear.

Please refer to the NCA website for Irish specific information.

WildCardDoW

By permanent I would guess it would have to last a decent amount of time for a laptop, so 3+ years? (I'm referring to the repair!)

It's covered under Irish law anyway for an certain amount of time, depends on the goods and the price paid, but I think two years minimum for most laptops without defects is acceptable. (very cheap laptops )

You could probably insist on a replacement/refund as this repair hasn't been permanent.

dudara

WildCardDoW wrote: »

By permanent I would guess it would have to last a decent amount of time for a laptop, so 3+ years? (I'm referring to the repair!)

Permanent would be defined in the context of the item and its expected reasonable lifetime.

ironclaw

dudara wrote: »

Permanent would be defined in the context of the item and its expected reasonable lifetime.

A laptops lifetime is 6 to 18 months, at most. It's common place for warrantys in laptops to be 12 months for the machine, and 6 months for the battery. Upon repair you will get 3 months for that repair. So if you have had the device for 6 months, you still only have 6 months warranty left. Likewise if its in the 12th month, the 3 months covers only that issue. This cam vary but it's been my experience with numerous manufacteurs.

Laptops are a dime a dozen and a 2011 laptop in 2013 is not worth repairing. Sorry but such is the speed of technological development. This is why I cringe at people paying for extra warranties on low end machines.

What exactly is the fault? It could be an easy DIY fix.

P. Breathnach

ironclaw wrote: »

A laptops lifetime is 6 to 18 months, at most....

There are three laptops in regular use in the house where I live. The newest is about two years old; the other two are more than four years old.

I'd go with WildCardoW's suggestion of 3+ years.

ironclaw

P. Breathnach wrote: »

There are three laptops in regular use in the house where I live. The newest is about two years old; the other two are more than four years old.

I'd go with WildCardoW's suggestion of 3+ years.

3 years is very uncommon for laptops or electronics in general. I've never heard of it. Larger items such as dishwashers etc maybe and even then your looking at probably 2 years. Think back to 2010 and the change since then. The days of 10 year parts and labour warranties are long gone. Stuff isn't made to last.

dudara

ironclaw wrote: »

A laptops lifetime is 6 to 18 months, at most

My company defines a laptop lifetime at 3 years. I would personally expect 2-3 years from a laptop.

This just shows how people can have (equally valid) different viewpoints on the same product.

Either way, warranties don't really matter, as they cannot supercede your statutory rights.

Corruptedmorals

ironclaw wrote: »

3 years is very uncommon for laptops or electronics in general. I've never heard of it. Larger items such as dishwashers etc maybe and even then your looking at probably 2 years. Think back to 2010 and the change since then. The days of 10 year parts and labour warranties are long gone. Stuff isn't made to last.

2 years for a dishwasher? My dishwasher is 19yo, tumble drier pushing 33. Washing machine gave up after 30. Toaster is 20yo. My laptop is 2 and a half and won't last much longer. It is pathetic that things aren't built to last anymore.

foggy_lad

ironclaw wrote: »

3 years is very uncommon for laptops or electronics in general. I've never heard of it. Larger items such as dishwashers etc maybe and even then your looking at probably 2 years. Think back to 2010 and the change since then. The days of 10 year parts and labour warranties are long gone. Stuff isn't made to last.

Forget about your guarantees and manufacturers warranties as they are not relevant to a consumers statutory rights.

A dishwasher or cooker or large white goods should last 3-5+ years depending on peice paid and the use etc. If used twice a day every day it cant be expected to last as long as one used 3 times a week.

Laptops should last a reasonable time so something like 3-5+ years woukd not be unusual depending on the price paid, amount of use and care taken. A top of the range laptop can have faults which a cheaper budget model will never have.

Procrastastudy

Technoprisoner wrote: »

try printing this off ...it is an eu directive on consumer rights

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/smartapi/cgi/sga_doc?smartapi!celexapi!prod!CELEXnumdoc&lg=en&numdoc=31999L0044&model=guichett

and highlight article 5 and bring it to the shop manager you may get somewhere

Time limits
1. The seller shall be held liable under Article 3 where the lack of conformity becomes apparent within two years as from delivery of the goods. If, under national legislation, the rights laid down in Article 3(2) are subject to a limitation period, that period shall not expire within a period of two years from the time of delivery.

failing that get in contact with these people
http://www.nca.ie/your-rights

EU directives have to be 'converted' into Irish law. That directive won't help the OP. This is the Irish SI for future reference. Arguably Ireland has failed to fully implement the directive - that would require a case in it's own right. More pwer to anyone who is going to take that case over something like a laptop.

The limitation period for claims in Ireland are contained here. To save some reading its six years. That is not to say items have a six year warranty however.

The guarantee (warranty is not quite the right word) is what ever the manufacturer manufactures says it is, essentially. However statutory rights with the retailer are generally much longer and should always be your firsyt port of call.

Opinion bit:

Electrical goods anything up-to three years - probably going to win in the Small Claims court. Anything over is a bit more dodgy but as Foggy rightly points out more expensive or higher quality items may me longer.

Practical bit:

Walk in ask for the manager and explain that you require the goods to be repair free of charge and in a reasonable time under your consumer rights. (Don't get into pub lawyering that's what boards is for ). If they refuse ask them, politely, for the address of their legal department and tell them to expect coraspondnace from the small claims court. If they have no legal dpeartment just send it to head office.

foggy_lad

Agree with the above except you don't use the head office in a small claims court case, you deal with the retailer which is the shop you bought from.

Procrastastudy

foggy_lad wrote: »

Agree with the above except you don't use the head office in a small claims court case, you deal with the retailer which is the shop you bought from.

You might be right but doesn't the correspondence have to go to the registered business address? Not our usual back and forth I genuinely don't know. If you can get away with sending it directly to the point of purchase (e.g. the specific branch you purchased from) do! I know from many years as a retail manager most stuff sent to shops gets lost! If they don't reply you win by default.

foggy_lad

Procrastastudy wrote: »

You might be right but doesn't the correspondence have to go to the registered business address? Not our usual back and forth I genuinely don't know. If you can get away with sending it directly to the point of purchase (e.g. the specific branch you purchased from) do! I know from many years as a retail manager most stuff sent to shops gets lost! If they don't reply you win by default.

You submit your forms to the court and they deal with the shop, afaik you do need the registered business name not just the trading name, so pc world/currys might be registered in another name like DSG Ireland. Im not so sure you need the head office address,
http://www.courts.ie/courts.ie/Library3.nsf/PageCurrentWebLookUpTopNav/Small%20Claims%20Procedure

A word of warning
Deciding on whether or not to make a claim is a matter for yourself and only you can be the judge of that.

In making a claim you must be sure of the name and address of the person or company against whom you want to make a claim. These details must be accurate in order to enable the Sheriff to execute the Court Order (Decree).

When a Respondent is a company, rather than an individual, it is important to ascertain the correct title of the company. This may be obtained from the Companies Registration Office, telephone no. 01- 804 5200/1, or Lo Call 1890 220 226.

Clarifying this may entail some research on your part.

Remember, there is little satisfaction to be gained from winning your case if the Respondent has no money to pay a judgment debt.

Consider carefully before deciding to make a small claim but remember that the procedure is there to help you to make your small claim with a minimum of procedural red tape and at little cost.

chasm

Lily58 wrote: »

Thanks for the info and quick reply.

The shop have stated that after it was repaired the first time the warranty was extended by 3 months and that would mean it is out of date. I just can't understand the logic if it's the same complaint?

First off, i have to say i agree with dudara's post but just as a matter of interest regarding the shop stating that after the first repair the warranty was extended by 3 months, you say your daughter bought the laptop in December 2011 and that it had a 1 year warranty. So that would mean the warranty expired in december 2012. Was the shop implying that the laptop was only under warranty for 3 months from the repair date in August 2012 or that you would get 3 months on top of the initial purchase warranty that would expire in December 2012?

If it was 3 months from the repair date that would mean they were not giving you your full initial 12 months anyway, but if it was the latter then surely it would be under their "warranty" (or shop policy by the sounds of it) as 3 months extra from your initial december 2012 expiry date would be March 2013.
(Hope that makes sense- it's late and i should be asleep )

Nonoperational

ironclaw wrote: »

A laptops lifetime is 6 to 18 months, at most. It's common place for warrantys in laptops to be 12 months for the machine, and 6 months for the battery. Upon repair you will get 3 months for that repair. So if you have had the device for 6 months, you still only have 6 months warranty left. Likewise if its in the 12th month, the 3 months covers only that issue. This cam vary but it's been my experience with numerous manufacteurs.

Laptops are a dime a dozen and a 2011 laptop in 2013 is not worth repairing. Sorry but such is the speed of technological development. This is why I cringe at people paying for extra warranties on low end machines.

What exactly is the fault? It could be an easy DIY fix.

Ah come off it. Who expects 6 months out of a laptop?
I've had about 15 laptops and 5-10 PCs in the house and every single one got over 3 years life. Some minor niggles fixed under warranty but nothing major bar one main board on a Toshiba. I'm typing this on a 3 year old Macbook Pro and it's absolutely perfect.

To be honest the speed of technological development is becoming less important to most casual users. A new laptop for me today would offer little improvement in for the tasks I use it for.

ironclaw

Nonoperational wrote: »

Ah come off it. Who expects 6 months out of a laptop?
I've had about 15 laptops and 5-10 PCs in the house and every single one got over 3 years life. Some minor niggles fixed under warranty but nothing major bar one main board on a Toshiba. I'm typing this on a 3 year old Macbook Pro and it's absolutely perfect.

To be honest the speed of technological development is becoming less important to most casual users. A new laptop for me today would offer little improvement in for the tasks I use it for.

Most performance users would change every 6 months to a year on a Windows machine in my experience. But I respect thats a niche market.

A MacBook is in a different league. I'm Mac myself and I'd consider 3 years an expected range for them. I've never had a problem with one and if I did (only minor stuff) AppleCare is second to none. They are also far, far better built machines and not to be compared to plastic junk of other manufacturers.

The point I was trying to make was that some people buy a laptop and expect it to last 5 years. It won't. They just arn't built for that. Software alone will outdate them very quickly. Most typical laptops their battery's won't last much more than a year. 2011 would also have been the cusp of 32 and 64 bit change over which again would date many machines in that range.

I'm not entirely sure of the manufacturer in question but I know Apple place 3 months warranty on the repaired defect. So if you have a 12 month warranty with 11 months expired, you have 3 months for the issue that was repaired and 1 month for every other issue. This in my eyes is completely fair as you have signed up for an initial 12 month warranty. If they offered 3 months for everything, you could just report an issue every 2.5 months repetitively. I've had similar experiences with other manufacturers.

P. Breathnach

ironclaw wrote: »

Most performance users would change every 6 months to a year on a Windows machine in my experience. But I respect thats a niche market. ...

About as niche as rally-driving is to everyday motoring. You can't reasonably set the standards for normal users by reference to those who force a product to its limits.

3ndahalfof6

ironclaw wrote: »

Most performance users would change every 6 months to a year on a Windows machine in my experience. But I respect thats a niche market.

A MacBook is in a different league. I'm Mac myself and I'd consider 3 years an expected range for them. I've never had a problem with one and if I did (only minor stuff) AppleCare is second to none. They are also far, far better built machines and not to be compared to plastic junk of other manufacturers.

The point I was trying to make was that some people buy a laptop and expect it to last 5 years. It won't. They just arn't built for that. Software alone will outdate them very quickly. Most typical laptops their battery's won't last much more than a year. 2011 would also have been the cusp of 32 and 64 bit change over which again would date many machines in that range.

I'm not entirely sure of the manufacturer in question but I know Apple place 3 months warranty on the repaired defect. So if you have a 12 month warranty with 11 months expired, you have 3 months for the issue that was repaired and 1 month for every other issue. This in my eyes is completely fair as you have signed up for an initial 12 month warranty. If they offered 3 months for everything, you could just report an issue every 2.5 months repetitively. I've had similar experiences with other manufacturers.

The one I am on at the moment is 5yrs old still going ok, and is a DELL (mind you I would never buy a DELL again), a lot of infighting software, but once I sorted this out (myself) no problems,

the hardware is fine, if you could do things 5yrs ago you should be able to do them today, it is only when you install new software (bigger, better, but not really needed) the problems start, that is all.

Procrastastudy

ironclaw wrote: »

Most performance users would change every 6 months to a year on a Windows machine in my experience. But I respect thats a niche market.

I disagree. Most performance users use desktops, change maybe one component per year. If we buy laptops we're compromising and know it. Three years is the minimum we expect out of things. We may or may not change thing but would have other machines we put things in or people we hand on the units too.

ironclaw wrote: »

A MacBook is in a different league. I'm Mac myself and I'd consider 3 years an expected range for them. I've never had a problem with one and if I did (only minor stuff) AppleCare is second to none. They are also far, far better built machines and not to be compared to plastic junk of other manufacturers.

Actually they're not. Apple used to be different, they used Motorola silicon. Now they just use bog standard PC components. Video cards come from AMD and chips from Intel. Apple are generally a generation behind what's on a PC. The only things going for them are excellent displays (which can be got on PCs / Laptops at the higher end), the OS (which actually costs around €1000 per copy so frankly I'd expect it to be Gods gift) and a nice looking case.

You're just as likely to have the usual suspect issues with a Mac - mechanical component failure - e.g. Fans and Hard Drives.

At best Macs could be classed as expensive luxury products so one could argue they should last longer then a €399 laptop.

ironclaw wrote: »

The point I was trying to make was that some people buy a laptop and expect it to last 5 years. It won't. They just arn't built for that. Software alone will outdate them very quickly. Most typical laptops their battery's won't last much more than a year. 2011 would also have been the cusp of 32 and 64 bit change over which again would date many machines in that range.

People expect them to be coming to the end of their life after five years but them still to be working. While I'm sure Macs changed over to 64 bit in 2011 PCs changed over to 64 bit processors way before that. Even if they didn't it's very reasonable to assume it should be chugging along in all it's 32 bit glory after five years.

ironclaw wrote: »

I'm not entirely sure of the manufacturer in question but I know Apple place 3 months warranty on the repaired defect. So if you have a 12 month warranty with 11 months expired, you have 3 months for the issue that was repaired and 1 month for every other issue. This in my eyes is completely fair as you have signed up for an initial 12 month warranty. If they offered 3 months for everything, you could just report an issue every 2.5 months repetitively. I've had similar experiences with other manufacturers.

Manufacturer = guarantee
Retailer = warranty

Manufacturer can do what they like. In fact Apple create a rod for many consumers backs as they are horrible to deal with as a retailer. Apple insist that retailer walk all over the statutory rights and get the customer to deal with the manufacturer direct.

The retailers warranty (e.g. part of the contract of sale regulated by the SOGASOS Act) is completely different to the guarantee given by the manufacturer and generally lasts a lot longer. I won't rehash what you're statutory rights are as they are in almost every post on this forum but to reiterate they are separate and distinct from the guarantee.

Hope this helps clear up a few misconceptions.