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Question about van i bought.

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  • 08-02-2013 11:58am
    #1
    bulldozer1
    Registered Users Posts: 48 ✭


    I bought a van from a private dealer there during the week which was advertised on donedeal as having a DOE untill May of this year. I didnt look at the cert myself before i bought it. just figured it was in order but got the van home lastnight and turns out the DOE is up today.
    I dont mind getting it tested as would have had to in couple of months anyway but if there is anything major wrong with it then do i have any rights in this situation?

    thanks


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    #2
    Nody
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,320 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody


    Private sale; buyer beware basically.


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    #3
    Oryx
    Subscribers Posts: 19,425 ✭✭✭✭Oryx


    No rights whatsoever.


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    #4
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Nody wrote: »
    Private sale; buyer beware basically.
    Oryx wrote: »
    No rights whatsoever.
    I disagree with the strong line taken here. The Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act does nothing for the purchaser, but the law of contract (which is mostly enshrined in the common law) still applies. What OP experienced was misrepresentation.

    In some cases, there can be a remedy for misrepresentation by an award of damages or by a contract being rescinded.

    In this case, however, I think OP would get nowhere. The significance of the misrepresentation is trivially small, and verifying the seller's claim would have been so simple that OP would get no sympathy for failing to have done so.


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    #5
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,997 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    bulldozer1 wrote: »
    I bought a van from a private dealer there during the week which was advertised on donedeal as having a DOE untill May of this year. I didnt look at the cert myself before i bought it. just figured it was in order but got the van home lastnight and turns out the DOE is up today.
    I dont mind getting it tested as would have had to in couple of months anyway but if there is anything major wrong with it then do i have any rights in this situation?

    thanks

    There's no such thing as a private dealer. It's either private or dealer. If they had more than one vehicle on sale they are a dealer* and consumer law is there to protect you. If they are a dealer go back and ask about them doing the DOE, as they did lie about it. But it may be more hassle than it's worth to chase it, unless it fails.


    * Stick their number into Google and see how many cars they've sold, it's not that many a year before revenue consider you a dealer but I can't remember the amount.


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    #6
    ironclaw
    Registered Users Posts: 8,004 ✭✭✭ironclaw


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    I disagree with the strong line taken here. The Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act does nothing for the purchaser, but the law of contract (which is mostly enshrined in the common law) still applies. What OP experienced was misrepresentation.

    In some cases, there can be a remedy for misrepresentation by an award of damages or by a contract being rescinded.

    In this case, however, I think OP would get nowhere. The significance of the misrepresentation is trivially small, and verifying the seller's claim would have been so simple that OP would get no sympathy for failing to have done so.

    You'd need a contract with such a clause i.e. 'This van has a DOE until May' and signed by the seller. I'd imagine if a contract exists it probably says 'Sold as seen' or something to that effect.

    With the availability of mechanics and online tools for buying a car in Ireland I have little sympathy for such events. Also if one is not inclined to verify such info such a expiry date then I utterly lay the blame on them. People need to take responsibly with their money.


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    #7
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    ironclaw wrote: »
    You'd need a contract with such a clause i.e. 'This van has a DOE until May' and signed by the seller. ...
    No you wouldn't. With a small number of exceptions, contracts do not need to be written. As a practical matter, the large majority of contracts are unwritten.


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    #8
    Procrastastudy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,224 ✭✭✭Procrastastudy


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    No you wouldn't. With a small number of exceptions, contracts do not need to be written. As a practical matter, the large majority of contracts are unwritten.

    Absolutely agree but, of course, proving it becomes the issue.

    As per no rights (sorry forgot poster) - the van does have to be safe to drive.


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    #9
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Procrastastudy wrote: »
    Absolutely agree but, of course, proving it becomes the issue.
    Of course. But the standard of proof in a civil action is the balance of probabilities rather than beyond reasonable doubt. It can come down to who is the more believable in a courtroom.
    As per no rights (sorry forgot poster) - the van does have to be safe to drive.
    And if a vehicle fails a DoE or NCT test immediately after it has been purchased, a safety issue might be exposed.


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    #10
    dudara
    Registered Users Posts: 33,518 ✭✭✭✭dudara


    OP - to shortcut the lot, it was a private sale. Your rights are curtailed in this instance.


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    #11
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    dudara wrote: »
    OP - to shortcut the lot, it was a private sale.
    Given the nature of the market in s/h vehicles it might, is some circumstances, be worthwhile following Del2005's advice and trying to check if the vendor runs a business.
    Your rights are curtailed in this instance.
    In a private sale, the purchaser has little protection from the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act but that does not mean that the purchaser has no rights at all.


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    #12
    dudara
    Registered Users Posts: 33,518 ✭✭✭✭dudara


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    Given the nature of the market in s/h vehicles it might, is some circumstances, be worthwhile following Del2005's advice and trying to check if the vendor runs a business.

    This is true. If you can establish that the seller makes a regular living from dealing in vehicle sales, then they can be treated as a business and your consumer rights come into effect. This is assuming that you bought the vehicle as a private individual, and not for a business.

    But in reality, the DOE cert is something that you can easily check. So I don't know how far you'll get.


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    #13
    bulldozer1
    Registered Users Posts: 48 ✭bulldozer1


    Thanks for the replies.

    yes this guy would be a big dealer. he has a yard full of cars and has a lot of adds up on donedeal. but only deals cash. so im sure the revenue would love to hear about it!
    and is there not such a thing as false advertising. he advertised it as having a DOE untill may.
    anyway when i get it tested and if there is anything major wrong with it i shall be getting back to him. he would have alot more to lose than me.


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    #14
    ironclaw
    Registered Users Posts: 8,004 ✭✭✭ironclaw


    bulldozer1 wrote: »
    and is there not such a thing as false advertising. he advertised it as having a DOE untill may.
    anyway when i get it tested and if there is anything major wrong with it i shall be getting back to him. he would have alot more to lose than me.

    A private individual could easily claim a typo on the DOE certificate advertisement. And then you'd be asked "Did you check the DOE before the sale?" to which you'll reply "No" And right there your case will be thrown out. You were given ample opportunity to check the van and its credentials before payment. It would be different if you paid first and then took delivery with no opportunity to check the merchandise (Which would be utter lunacy when buying a car)

    Irregardless of what anyone says on here, you made a private deal with someone for cash. Its a private sale and you have no comeback. You can quote all the laws you want but its comes down to a deal between two people. Buyer beware. You'd need to drag it through the courts or confront the person. Both of which carry a large element of risk (Financial and personal) All over a DOE cert.

    You can of course report them to revenue. And if they are below board, they will prosecuted. You'll gain nothing and revenue won't care if you were mis-sold a van. I distain tax evasion so if you wanted to 'get even' on that route then your welcome to in my book.


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    #15
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    ironclaw wrote: »
    ...
    Irregardless of what anyone says on here, you made a private deal with someone for cash. Its a private sale and you have no comeback. You can quote all the laws you want but its comes down to a deal between two people. Buyer beware....
    Private deal? With a yard full of cars and a lot of ads on donedeal?

    I'd bet that the Revenue Commissioners would not regard it as a private sale.


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    #16
    ironclaw
    Registered Users Posts: 8,004 ✭✭✭ironclaw


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    Private deal? With a yard full of cars and a lot of ads on donedeal?

    I'd bet that the Revenue Commissioners would not regard it as a private sale.

    If its an issue, then report to Revenue. But that isn't a consumer issue and revenue won't give a sausage about someone getting ripped off. And rightly so, it isn't their game.

    If Revenue went in they'll probably audit, fine and make them register as a sole trader / business. As a consumer your still no better off. Like I said even if it went to court you will be asked if you audited the car and if you believed it was 'fit for purpose' By paying for it then its fairly well implied that you believed the van was fit for purpose. No one in their right mind would buy something from an individual without first checking that it was as described.

    I'm also assuming the OP didn't sign a receipt. I'm sure they probably did and it probably said 'Sold As Is' or something similar. Everyone in the private motor trade does this to cover themselves and rightly so.

    I have no sympathy. Its a DOE cert and the date is printed on it.


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    #17
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    I really don't understand what your agenda is. Nobody is suggesting that OP is likely to get anywhere on the issue of DoE certification.

    But it is absurd to suggest that somebody with a yard full of vehicles for sale is a private dealer.

    It's also absurd to suggest that a "sold as is" claim exonerates any seller from all legal liabilities.


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