What party do Protestants vote for?

The Reamer

crockholm wrote: »

Then of course,there is the placing of flags within COI churches, many were regiment banners, I know, but when people see British flags in Irish churches some might wonder about one's allagience,ditto with vatican city flags.

Indeed that is quite the point. Actually the CoI have banned the flying of any flag (including the republican tricolour) and now only use St. Patricks Saltire. Regimental banners are not covered by it I'd say.
Another thing I have noticed is that a great many CoI churches incorporate some form of WW I memorial or plaque. I have yet to see one in a RC church. One would also notice that RC churches often have a republican tricolour in them sometimes.

I think based on this that one could reasonably beleive that the CoI was and/or is pro-Union and the RCC supports republicanism.

crockholm

I remember visiting saul church in co.Down a few years back and seeing only st. patricks coss outside, yet I visited st. Patricks Cathedral in Dublin, and there were still British flags inside. I really don't think that there is a homogenous Protestant vote in the republic, but that is a guess, we didn't have protestants in our town when I was growing up,so my knowledge of the anglican community is poor

The Reamer

I see. When you say you saw British flags in St. Patricks, were they actual Union flags or just regimental banners? I am not sure whether the banners would come under the flag ban that came in after the vote in 1999. I myself have seen regimental banners in a number of CoI churches includeing St. Canices in KK.

crockholm

British flag,unless it was distinguished differently by having a gold/yellow border,with tassels. Mind you,that was a while back now,maybe 2003, and the ol' memory doesn't work quite so well these days.AFAIK voting along religious lines would be more common in Germany,Switzerland and Nederlands up until the mid- 20th century

The Reamer

No, the CoI had a vote in 1999 on whether or not to prohibit the flying of flags other than st patricks cross.

ardmacha

Actually the CoI have banned the flying of any flag (including the republican tricolour) and now only use St. Patricks Saltire.

Surely you mean the COI passed a vote, but now turn a blind eye when the Union flag is flown, but never fly a tricolour?

One would also notice that RC churches often have a republican tricolour in them sometimes.

Which ones would they be?

baby and crumble

The amount of ridiculous guff coming out of the OPs mouth is quite astonishing. You don't seem to understand what I think ALL of the Protestants replying on thread have said: no-one has much of a bee in their bonnet about why happened 100 years ago. Protestants are not a blanket group, we are not all wealthy, we are not all landowners, we are not all automatically college educated and we are not all te same.

Also, there seems to be some confusion what Protestant actually means. Protestant and Church of Ireland are not one and the same. church of Ireland is a BRANCH of Protestantism. Just like Methodist, baptist, etc.

So op, I suggest you listen to what the people responding to you are saying. I also suggest that you clearly have some sort of an agenda, really wanting to believe that Irish Protestants are somehow begrudging of some sort of Ill treatment in the 1920's. I'll admit, I used to get abuse shouted at me when I was in my school uniform (Church of Ireland boarding school). My brothers got beaten up because of it. But that was all done by morons who hadnt moved with the times.

And it is a bit gross to suggest that a Protestant in Ireland voting for FF or FG is the same as Jewish people voting for Nazis. I don't ever remember FF demanding we all get gassed.

Maybe that's only because they realise our ladies make the best buns, I don't know.

crockholm

baby and crumble wrote: »

The amount of ridiculous guff coming out of the OPs mouth is quite astonishing. You don't seem to understand what I think ALL of the Protestants replying on thread have said: no-one has much of a bee in their bonnet about why happened 100 years ago. Protestants are not a blanket group, we are not all wealthy, we are not all landowners, we are not all automatically college educated and we are not all te same.

Also, there seems to be some confusion what Protestant actually means. Protestant and Church of Ireland are not one and the same. church of Ireland is a BRANCH of Protestantism. Just like Methodist, baptist, etc.

So op, I suggest you listen to what the people responding to you are saying. I also suggest that you clearly have some sort of an agenda, really wanting to believe that Irish Protestants are somehow begrudging of some sort of Ill treatment in the 1920's. I'll admit, I used to get abuse shouted at me when I was in my school uniform (Church of Ireland boarding school). My brothers got beaten up because of it. But that was all done by morons who hadnt moved with the times.

And it is a bit gross to suggest that a Protestant in Ireland voting for FF or FG is the same as Jewish people voting for Nazis. I don't ever remember FF demanding we all get gassed.

Maybe that's only because they realise our ladies make the best buns, I don't know.

I agree with you,on the continent there are countries where traditionally people voted along religious lines on occasion,though I am wholly unaware of it happening in the Republic of Ireland

bmaxi

This is the second similar thread to emerge on Boards in the recent past. I view such threads as an attempt to demonize a section of our population and they basically stem from ignorance.
When I was at school, nothing was taught of the other traditions of this island and from the comments I've seen so far, that hasn't changed. I can only hope that the proposed secularisation of our schools meets with a good response, it can't happen too soon.
Have none of those who question Protestant republicanism heard of Wolfe Tone or Robert Emmet or Henry Joy Mc Cracken, do they not know that the United Irishmen was founded by Protestants or that the 1798 rebellion was Protestant led. They probably don't, because though all these things were taught in our schools, this was one element which was not emphasised.
Another form of ignorance is the assumption, and this has been pointed out earlier, that all Protestants on this island are C of I, nothing could be further from the truth. In fact the C of I is in a minority, with Presbyterians forming the majority. Another fact which is conveniently overlooked in our schools is that Presbyterians suffered as much under the Penal Laws as did Catholics.
I'm no standard bearer for Protestantism, I hold all forms of religion in the same contempt but it annoys me to see the same claptrap beloved of John Charles Mc Quaid and his bigoted cohorts, still alive and well in 2013.

COYW

GRMA wrote: »

I know a COI minister who is a member of SF, tbh there is a lot of intolerance of him with many of his peers and the COI establishment as anyone can see if they read copies of the COI journal/magazine and replies to his letters published therein

I find that VERY hard to believe. I cannot recall every discussing politics with any other church member. After service, we discuss everything else apart from party politics. I presume you are suggesting that the horrible nasty members of the CoI, who are really Brits behind it all, are treating the SF member terribly but his fellow SF members (lovely bunch) respect and have no issue with the fact that he is a member of the CoI? Pull the other one.

Personally, I give my vote to the candidate who impresses me the most when they call to my door. I am one of these people who really grills the candidate on their views and policies. Even though I speak to them when they call to my door, I would never vote for SF or the ULA members. I am totally against their mischievous and cheap form of politics.

Some people on here have strange notions about Protestantism. I got threatened with detention once for suggesting the Sam Maguire, of the GAA cup, was a member of the CoI. That teacher, old man to be fair, probably still thinks he was RC, through and through, to this day. On the flip side to that, we had a young RC priest for R.E. who was brilliant and decided to spend the year teaching our class about pretty much every religion out there. He gave us all a great insight into what all the different religions were about (brought us to a mosque, brought in representatives of the Jewish faith). He wanted us to learn about, understand and respect all the faiths in the world. Chap died in a car crash soon after; such a loss.

lottpaul

bmaxi wrote: »

In fact the C of I is in a minority, with Presbyterians forming the majority. Another fact which is conveniently overlooked in our schools is that Presbyterians suffered as much under the Penal Laws as did Catholics.

Just looked up the census figures for the whole island - all religions operate on an All-Ireland basis anyway.

• Church of Ireland: 383,186
• Presbyterian: 369,701
• Methodist: 61,095

(Presbyterians are the bigger number in Northern Ireland and the C of I is far bigger in the Republic)


But, like others said, I don't see an organised Protestant vote in the Republic (NI is definitely different) - and there have been Protestant TDs from the 3 main traditional parties in recent years. I'm not familiar enough with the current Dáil to know who's who.


Nowadays a lot depends on your circumstances - Protestant farmers in west Cork are going to be a lot more concerned with the CAP than Protestants living in Dún Laoghaire.

People are people and most are too busy making ends meet and getting on with life to worry about where you go to worship on a Sunday/Saturday/Friday etc.

GRMA

COYW wrote: »

I find that VERY hard to believe. I cannot recall every discussing politics with any other church member. After service, we discuss everything else apart from party politics. I presume you are suggesting that the horrible nasty members of the CoI, who are really Brits behind it all, are treating the SF member terribly but his fellow SF members respect and have no issue with the fact that he is a member of the CoI? Pull the other one.

Personally, I give my vote to the candidate who impresses me the most when they call to my door. I am one of these people who really grills the candidate on their views and policies. Even though I speak to them when they call to my door, I would never vote for SF or the ULA members. I am totally against their mischievous and cheap form of politics.

Some people on here have strange notions about Protestantism. I got threatened with detention once for suggesting the Sam Maguire, of the GAA cup, was a member of the CoI. That teacher, old man to be fair, probably still thinks he was RC, through and through, to this day. On the flip side to that, we had a young RC priest for R.E. who was brilliant and decided to spend the year teaching our class about pretty much every religion out there. He gave us all a great insight into what all the different religions were about. Chap died in a car crash soon after; such a loss.

I'm only saying what he told me. He's a liar?

I think its the northern based ministers who don't like him/his membership of SF. He's never said he had any issue with SF and tbh I've never met anyone who has an issue with him being a minister or a protestant in fact most think it's a positive as it demonstrates how the part isnt intolerant or sectarian.

COYW

GRMA wrote: »

I'm only saying what he told me. He's a liar?

I think its the northern based ministers who don't like him/his membership of SF.

The N.I. addition makes a big difference. I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case but the flip side would be true up there also. Different story down here.

GRMA

COYW wrote: »

The N.I. addition makes a big difference. I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case but the flip side would be true up there also. Different story down here.

I'll also should say that he has nothing but positive things to say about his congregation and being a minister, its the church authorities who have an issue with him... he loves his church regardless


He's based in the south btw

The Bishop Basher

CoI here, as are both sides of my family going back generations.

Growing up I was an avid republican and while circumstance and age have softened my views a little, i'm still very much in that camp.

Thing is, so were my parents and grandparents. Some great stories have been passed down the generations and leave me in no doubt as to where their allegiance lay.

I have voted FF, FG, SF, Lab and Ind over the years. It all came down to the local candidate and nothing more.

Some of the generalisations in this thread are shocking tbh.

bmaxi

COYW wrote: »

I find that VERY hard to believe. I cannot recall every discussing politics with any other church member. After service, we discuss everything else apart from party politics. I presume you are suggesting that the horrible nasty members of the CoI, who are really Brits behind it all, are treating the SF member terribly but his fellow SF members (lovely bunch) respect and have no issue with the fact that he is a member of the CoI? Pull the other one.

Personally, I give my vote to the candidate who impresses me the most when they call to my door. I am one of these people who really grills the candidate on their views and policies. Even though I speak to them when they call to my door, I would never vote for SF or the ULA members. I am totally against their mischievous and cheap form of politics.

Some people on here have strange notions about Protestantism. I got threatened with detention once for suggesting the Sam Maguire, of the GAA cup, was a member of the CoI. That teacher, old man to be fair, probably still thinks he was RC, through and through, to this day. On the flip side to that, we had a young RC priest for R.E. who was brilliant and decided to spend the year teaching our class about pretty much every religion out there. He gave us all a great insight into what all the different religions were about (brought us to a mosque, brought in representatives of the Jewish faith). He wanted us to learn about, understand and respect all the faiths in the world. Chap died in a car crash soon after; such a loss.

I certainly couldn't confirm the case of the C of I minister but if true, it wouldn't be the first case of a Protestant minister being involved with Republicans. Sinclair Kelburne was a Presbyterian minister who was imprisoned in Kilmainham for his part in the 1798 rebellion.
There have always been unlikely Republican affiliations from the Protestant community, the most notable contemporary example is Ronnie Bunting son of Major Ronald Bunting, a staunch supporter of Ian Paisley and a leading campaigner against the Civil Rights movement.
Ronnie was a member of the OIRA and later a founder member of the INLA. He was believed to have been the mastermind behind the bomb under the Houses of Parliament, which killed British Minister, Airey Neave. Ronnie was shot dead along with another Protestant INLA man, Noel Lyttle, supposedly by the UVF but many believe, by the SAS.
You are correct about Sam Maguire, he was also one of the founders of the IRB.

OCorcrainn

COYW wrote: »

I find that VERY hard to believe. I cannot recall every discussing politics with any other church member. After service, we discuss everything else apart from party politics. I presume you are suggesting that the horrible nasty members of the CoI, who are really Brits behind it all, are treating the SF member terribly but his fellow SF members (lovely bunch) respect and have no issue with the fact that he is a member of the CoI? Pull the other one.

Personally, I give my vote to the candidate who impresses me the most when they call to my door. I am one of these people who really grills the candidate on their views and policies. Even though I speak to them when they call to my door, I would never vote for SF or the ULA members. I am totally against their mischievous and cheap form of politics.

Some people on here have strange notions about Protestantism. I got threatened with detention once for suggesting the Sam Maguire, of the GAA cup, was a member of the CoI. That teacher, old man to be fair, probably still thinks he was RC, through and through, to this day. On the flip side to that, we had a young RC priest for R.E. who was brilliant and decided to spend the year teaching our class about pretty much every religion out there. He gave us all a great insight into what all the different religions were about (brought us to a mosque, brought in representatives of the Jewish faith). He wanted us to learn about, understand and respect all the faiths in the world. Chap died in a car crash soon after; such a loss.

That looks like a slight contradiction, so of you were impressed by a SF candidate you would completely dismiss them? But I see where you are coming from regarding the ULA, bunch of loons.

Ted_YNWA

The Reamer wrote: »

In the past I would imagine that most Protestants would have had little choice but to abstain from voting or else vote for independent Protestant candidates.
I think abstentionism would have been quite common in the past as most probably would not have recognised the then newly established 26 county state.

But today I was wondering whether the passage of time would mean that Protestants would be more enclined to vote for parties that would be traditionally hostile to their interests. I think it most likely that they would vote FG as FG would traditionally be more representative of Upper Middle Class, landowners and prosperous farmers, who would be more likely to be Protestant rather than catholic. Whereas FF & Lab would be more geared towards the working class, typically catholic.
Or perhaps they only vote for Protestant independents or catholics that are sympathetic to them?

Do you have any proof that members of the electorate abstained??

What parties are hostile to the interests of Protestants ? I am CoI & have yet to come across any. I have never heard of any of my relations saying " I can't vote for him, he's a Catholic"

Your post comes across as Anti-Protestant to me. We are not that narrow-minded to only vote based on a person's religion. Are you ?

I could not give a toss if local politian is Mormon/Jewish/CoI/Catholic/Atheist or any other religion, sect or creed.

I would like to think that people eligble to vote do so on the socio-economic beliefs & proposals the canditate puts forward for the constituency & country as a whole.

/Rant

COYW

OCorcrainn wrote: »

That looks like a slight contradiction, so of you were impressed by a SF candidate you would completely dismiss them? But I see where you are coming from regarding the ULA, bunch of loons.

No, I should have worded that better. What I meant is that I wouldn't vote for SF or the ULA candidates because I do not agree with their brand of politics. However, I am not the type of person to slam the door in someones face, so I would have the manners to speak to a SF or ULA candidate if they called to my door.

Outside of those two groups, I would give my vote to the candidate who impresses me the most under questioning. If a candidate does not take the time to visit me or a representative for them at least, they have no chance of getting my vote.

token101

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

I'm curious to know what "interests" are unique protestant.

My elderly neighbour told my sister once that basketball was a protestant sport and she should give that up or stop going to mass :pac:

SoulandForm

Its interesting that "Non-Conformist" Protestant culture in Wales is very left-wing, Pacifist, Republican and Nationalist while in Ulster its almost the opposite to all that. My understanding is that Protestants in the south are politically split along class and personal disposition. Think of W.B. Yeats on one hand and than Sean O'Casey and Jack White on the other.

SoulandForm

drquirky wrote: »

As freedom of thought is very important to us, we don't vote as a bloc for any specific party. I think you'll find that there are Protestants of every political persuasion and who hold many differing views on the Republican position.

The OP seems to have a strange idea that all Protestants in the Republic are upper middle class. This was never the case of course.

SoulandForm

Swanner wrote: »

Some of the generalisations in this thread are shocking tbh.

What about recent converts to Protestantism? What about new Protestant immigrants? Where would these figures in the OP? The way things are going the average Protestant in the Republic will soon be a black African.

baby and crumble

SoulandForm wrote: »

The way things are going the average Protestant in the Republic will soon be a black African.

So?

SoulandForm

baby and crumble wrote: »

So?

My point was that the OP has a totally false ideas of Protestants in the Republic.

AlekSmart

Nodin wrote: »

It's due to continued nonsense such as the above that I have a great problem in taking this thread seriously.

I'm dumbfounded that this thread is still open,or that the OP has'nt been strapped to a(virtual) Tumbril and wheeled to a suitable public place from a good flogging !

However,the fellow may have a strategy....I'll venture that it's only part one of a Series...

Can ye see it on RTE after the watershed......

"This week...What Party do Muslims vote for.....followed by...erm....Dusky Foreigners....Non-Settled Irish....Jews.....Scientologists....All the questions you wanted to ask but could'nt (In refined society )

Crikey this might give Robert Kee a run for his money !!!

kraggy

Who would ever refer to Fine Gael as a republican party? Sure they supportive of the idea to give the Brits Northern Ireland in the first place.

hatrickpatrick

Thread title is everything that's wrong with Ireland IMO. The only things people should be paying attention to when voting for candidates are (a) the policies those candidates have pledged to implement, and (b) their track record of actually delivering and not doing the 'auld bait and switch whereby the minute they have the seat they do whatever they want with it.

That is, of course, just my personal opinion.

LordSutch

From my lifelong experience of the Protestant community (in the ROI), I would say that historically, most Protestsnts would have voted for Fine Gael, then in more recent times the PDs, Greens & Inde's would also have been acceptable. That's just my opinion though, I don't know for sure.

bmaxi

kraggy wrote: »

Who would ever refer to Fine Gael as a republican party? Sure they supportive of the idea to give the Brits Northern Ireland in the first place.

Nobody "gave" Northern Ireland away. Northern Ireland had the option to join with the Free State and decided not to.

Sierra Oscar

GRMA wrote: »

Bit of a mad thread, most of my extended family are Protestants and they vote the same way as normal people do, I think most voted labour last time out but that had nothing to do with their religion, they'll vote someone else next time probably.

Yep, seems to be the case. I know of plenty of protestants who are members of political parties, some of whom I know through membership of FF. Sure former minister Martin Mansergh is a protestant, and indeed he played an important role in brining about the GFA.

This must be one of the most naive threads here. Its almost as if the OP has never met a 'protestant'?

Nodin

AlekSmart wrote: »

I'm dumbfounded that this thread is still open,or that the OP has'nt been strapped to a(virtual) Tumbril and wheeled to a suitable public place from a good flogging !

However,the fellow may have a strategy....I'll venture that it's only part one of a Series...

Can ye see it on RTE after the watershed......

"This week...What Party do Muslims vote for.....followed by...erm....Dusky Foreigners....Non-Settled Irish....Jews.....Scientologists....All the questions you wanted to ask but could'nt (In refined society )

Crikey this might give Robert Kee a run for his money !!!

A complete misinterpretation. Try reading the thread.

AlekSmart

Nodin wrote: »

A complete misinterpretation. Try reading the thread.

Is It ? ......Rightey Oh ...If you say so.

Nodin

AlekSmart wrote: »

Is It ? ......Rightey Oh ...If you say so.

Wondering what way protestants vote is not the source of my objections. Thats not because I say so, thats because its not the source of my objections. This should be blatantly obvious from the various posts made by the OP, and the similar conclusions reached by the majority of people who've commented on this thread.

Henlars67

Having canvassed for numerous elections I've found, much to my amazement that just like people of other religions and none, protestants vote for a variety of candidates and parties, even SF, and don't vote en masse for a particular candidate or party.

Judgement Day

GRMA wrote: »

How are SF intolerant to Protestants? There are lots of Protestant members and SF policies are hardly dictated by Rome, most members hate the church for its hatred of republicans

Do SF keep data on their members religious affiliations - it wouldn't surprise me - or are you just making this up? I'm black myself and don't know a single solitary Protestant who would vote SF let alone join them.

SoulandForm

Judgement Day wrote: »

Do SF keep data on their members religious affiliations - it wouldn't surprise me - or are you just making this up? I'm black myself and don't know a single solitary Protestant who would vote SF let alone join them.

I dont think that many upper middle or middle class people in large parts of the Republic of Ireland would vote for SF. Did you ever consider that might be the reason that you know no Protestants who vote for SF? Trevor Sargent the one time leader of the Greens used to vist IRA prisoners in Portlaoise. I know two southern Protestants who vote for SF. Northern Ireland would be a different story though.

Judgement Day

I'm sure that there's an element of class in it alright and turkeys don't vote for Chirstmas, but I was speaking generally from my own experience. I've always voted Green or Independents, where possible, and would certainly never vote for SF/FF or FG but I'm a bit of a reactionary - a plague on all their houses. I do know a local Protestant businessman, somebody that I would have considered fairly liberal in his views, nearly having a seizure when I said it was great to see SF doing so well in the last general election. Like many of us he'd rather cut his throat first than vote SF but of course that's what they want - isn't it?

Henlars67

Judgement Day wrote: »

Do SF keep data on their members religious affiliations - it wouldn't surprise me - or are you just making this up? I'm black myself and don't know a single solitary Protestant who would vote SF let alone join them.

I know one protestant member of SF, I know of a couple more.

I know one Irish protestant family who regularly vote SF and several English immigrants who vote SF.
They would be left wing people who don't care either way about the national question. Labour and the socialists are non existent around here.

As regards religious affiliations nobody in SF gives a flying f*** about the religious backgrounds of members.

Personally I can't stand the catholic church. I know other members who feel the same and I know SF members who go to mass every Sunday, sometimes more frequently.

Same as the membership of every other party I presume.

Don't know why people think that we would be any different.

SoulandForm

Judgement Day wrote: »

I'm sure that there's an element of class in it alright and turkeys don't vote for Chirstmas, but I was speaking generally from my own experience. I've always voted Green or Independents, where possible, and would certainly never vote for SF/FF or FG but I'm a bit of a reactionary - a plague on all their houses. I do know a local Protestant businessman, somebody that I would have considered fairly liberal in his views, nearly having a seizure when I said it was great to see SF doing so well in the last general election. Like many of us he'd rather cut his throat first than vote SF but of course that's what they want - isn't it?

Uh....There is a sectarian element in SF in Northern Ireland (though I will probably get into trouble for saying that) however I think it would be a gross simplification to say that all Shinners up there are sectarian. I dont think that there is a sectarian element in SF in the Republic, at least outside of the border counties. The idea that they want Protestants to cut their throats is being totally over dramatic.

Nodin

Judgement Day wrote: »

I'm sure that there's an element of class in it alright and turkeys don't vote for Chirstmas, but I was speaking generally from my own experience. I've always voted Green or Independents, where possible, and would certainly never vote for SF/FF or FG but I'm a bit of a reactionary - a plague on all their houses. I do know a local Protestant businessman, somebody that I would have considered fairly liberal in his views, nearly having a seizure when I said it was great to see SF doing so well in the last general election. Like many of us he'd rather cut his throat first than vote SF but of course that's what they want - isn't it?

If you want to allege thats a policy/agenda of SF then you might perhaps start a thread on the subject and present some evidence there.

Henlars67

I genuinely don't know one sectarian Sinn Fein member and I'm from a border county, though there are some sectarian hangers on who turn up for functions and events and stuff but any of them who express an interest in joining officially are fobbed off.

Judgement Day

Henlars67 wrote: »

I genuinely don't know one sectarian Sinn Fein member and I'm from a border county, though there are some sectarian hangers on who turn up for functions and events and stuff but any of them who express an interest in joining officially are fobbed off.

You should get out more.

Henlars67

Judgement Day wrote: »

You should get out more.

I get out plenty and I know loads of SF members.

K-9

Apologies for letting this go on longer than it deserved, there was some merit in letting it go which is a saving grace.