Are Irish developers underpaid?

lemon_remon

According to forbes the average salary for a computer science graduate in the US is circa $65,000. In Ireland similar figures aren't available but I imagine it's somewhere around €26,000. This would be over €20,000 less than what what the average US graduate makes. I'm a soon to be graduate myself and this difference in pay scale seems insane. You can say that the cost of living in the US is higher but, whether this is true or not, it would not account for such a massive difference in pay scales. Do things balance out as developers gain experience or do Irish developers undersell themselves? I'd be interested in hearing some first hand experience.

SalteeDog

Speaking generally if Irish developers were paid the same as US developers then many of the jobs in this country wouldn't exist. My experience (global multinationals) is companies will budget $100+ an hour for US based, about $40 to $60 for Irish and $20 to $40 for India. (These numbers are salary+overhead). Of course certain individuals with specific skills/experience may command much more just as entry level roles will command much less.

IRLConor

It's been a while since I've been a graduate but I'd be surprised if €26,000 was the average salary.

What little I've heard about graduate salaries has been €28-€32k depending on employer and candidate.

srsly78

1. You can't just do a simple currency conversion to compare salaries between countries, you should also take cost of living and tax rate into account.

2. Not all developers are computer science graduates.

Sparks

Glassdoor has a huge range of salaries from €25k up to the €130k range depending on company size and seniority. Morgan McKinley has a range from €25k to €75k depending on language and experience level (that's from their 2013 salary survey). Brightwater says from €30k to €90k depending on role and experience (again, from their 2013 salary survey).

They're not poverty-level numbers, and are a lot higher than engineers in other branches of engineering (they're a good third higher even at the mid-level of experience); but compared to other professions with similar degrees of training and social necessity like doctors, the legal profession, and so forth, they're terrible.

ChRoMe

srsly78 wrote: »

1. You can't just do a simple currency conversion to compare salaries between countries, you should also take cost of living and tax rate into account.

2. Not all developers are computer science graduates.

This, such raw comparisons are laughable they are so meaningless.

lemon_remon

srsly78 wrote: »

1. You can't just do a simple currency conversion to compare salaries between countries, you should also take cost of living and tax rate into account.

2. Not all developers are computer science graduates.

1. I addressed that in the OP. Cost of living in Ireland is relatively high compared to the average cost of the living the US.

2. I never said they were, I was using it to gauge salary comparisons as most computer science graduates, be it correct or incorrect, go into (software) development roles. If the difference between graduates is so disperse then why wouldn't it be at other levels?

srsly78

Appearances can be deceiving, I would contend that development jobs are focused in expensive places like Silicon Valley and other tech-hubs. Maybe it's the developers making these places expensive >.<

Similar story here in Ireland, with stupid-expensive-Dublin having most of the higher paying jobs.

ChRoMe

lemon_remon wrote: »

1. I addressed that in the OP. Cost of living in Ireland is relatively high compared to the average cost of the living the US.

2. I never said they were, I was using it to gauge salary comparisons as most computer science graduates, be it correct or incorrect, go into (software) development roles. If the difference between graduates is so disperse then why wouldn't it be at other levels?

Massive holes can still immediately be blown in your assumptions. You are treating the USA as a whole (?!?). SF/NYC is going to be very different rates compared to MN and other midwest states. Then are there fluctuations between state and federal laws and their associated tax implications. Thats only the start.

srsly78

Not to mention the differences between healthcare and social insurance across various countries. If you ever work abroad you might be surprised at all the extra mandatory deductions taken from your wages. Not that the Irish system is necessarily better of course...

lemon_remon

srsly78 wrote: »

Appearances can be deceiving, I would contend that development jobs are focused in expensive places like Silicon Valley and other tech-hubs. Maybe it's the developers making these places expensive >.<

The average graduate salary in silicon valley is in the 6 figures, it can't be considered the norm with the high cost of living and start-up centered culture.

srsly78 wrote: »

Similar story here in Ireland, with stupid-expensive-Dublin having most of the higher paying jobs.

That's what my question was addressing. Why, with a similar cost of living to most places in the US, are Irish developers so "underpaid". Underpaid in the sense that there are vacancies in the sector but it is not as well paid as what are considered other "professional" jobs.

lemon_remon

ChRoMe wrote: »

Massive holes can still immediately be blown in your assumptions. You are treating the USA as a whole (?!?). SF/NYC is going to be very different rates compared to MN and other midwest states. Then are there fluctuations between state and federal laws and their associated tax implications. Thats only the start.

Hence why I addressed the average. Why shouldn't the average be comparable to Ireland?

ChRoMe

lemon_remon wrote: »

Hence why I addressed the average. Why shouldn't the average be comparable to Ireland?

Its a Continent of 300 million people......... How on earth do you expect to extrapolate any relevant data using that set?

srsly78

The grass seems greener in other professions sometimes yes. But have you read about doctors being "junior doctors" until they reach their 40s? With 100 hour weeks and crap pay etc. The older generations had things better... I have heard similar stories about law and accountancy as well.

If you want to earn silly money with the quickest training then be a pilot Costs a lot to do the exams tho, and hard work doing all the training - you could be flying a 737 for an airline in about 2 years I believe.

lemon_remon

ChRoMe wrote: »

Its a Continent of 300 million people.........

I don't see what that was to do with things. A "professional" is a professional. The average American university is comparable to the likes of Irish universities, so why are the graduates worth so much less?

lemon_remon

srsly78 wrote: »

The grass seems greener in other professions sometimes yes. But have you read about doctors being "junior doctors" until they reach their 40s? With 100 hour weeks and crap pay etc. The older generations had things better... I have heard similar stories about law and accountancy as well.

If you want to earn silly money with the quickest training then be a pilot Costs a lot to do the exams tho, and hard work doing all the training (you could be flying a 737 for an airplane in about 2 years I believe).

I'm not looking for silly money. I simply think people should get what they're worth. If you were selling a product, and the product was worth nearly twice as much in America as it was in Ireland, wouldn't you bring your product to America and not bother with Ireland?

Sorry for multiple posts.

srsly78

A lot of us would no doubt jump at the chance to work in America yes. But it isn't so easy - most of us would be illegal aliens Would have to find a company willing to sponsor us. We are free to work wherever we want in Europe tho - London pays well.

ChRoMe

lemon_remon wrote: »

I don't see what that was to do with things. A "professional" is a professional. The average American university is comparable to the likes of Irish universities, so why are the graduates worth so much less?

You really dont see any issues with comparing a country with 300 million people with one that has 4 million. Completely different tax regulations both on a national and local level? Really?

Read the above sentences several times for clarity.

ChRoMe

srsly78 wrote: »

A lot of us would no doubt jump at the chance to work in America yes. But it isn't so easy! We are free to work wherever we want in Europe tho - London pays well.

**** that. You aware of what an "at will" state's labour laws are? Its ****ing stone age stuff.

srsly78

Like I care? I would take a 6 month contract and invoice them. What are the per-diem subsistence rates for business trips to America anyway? I might actually have a business trip to Colarado coming up - but I've missed the skiing season

lemon_remon

ChRoMe wrote: »

You really dont see any issues with comparing a country with 300 million people with one that has 4 million. Completely different tax regulations both on a national and local level? Really?

Read the above sentences several times for clarity.

Unfortunately, tax regulations don't account for the magnitude of difference here. You're right, you can't compare salaries on a euro by euro basis but, even if you don't, the differences are more severe.

I haven't done a similar comparison with the UK but imagine the situation would be similar: Irish developers seem underpaid.

ChRoMe

srsly78 wrote: »

Like I care? I would take a 6 month contract and invoice them. What are the per-diem subsistence rates for business trips to America anyway?

Never even checked, doesn't make financial sense to work in the states,considering the USD is near worthless compared to GBP.

ChRoMe

lemon_remon wrote: »

Unfortunately, tax regulations don't account for the magnitude of difference here. You're right, you can't compare salaries on a euro by euro basis but, even if you don't, the differences are more severe.

I haven't done a similar comparison with the UK but imagine the situation would be similar: Irish developers seem underpaid.

You are working with a US average that is skewed by the richest and poorest areas in one of the biggest economies in the world.

lemon_remon

ChRoMe wrote: »

Never even checked, doesn't make financial sense to work in the states,considering the USD is near worthless compared to GBP.

I suppose it depends what sector you're in. If you're in bleeding edge, silicon valley, Austin, Seattle etc. make sense. If you're in the financial sector, the UK makes sense. But when exactly does Ireland make sense, that is my question?

lemon_remon

ChRoMe wrote: »

You are working with a US average that is skewed by the richest and poorest areas in one of the biggest economies in the world.

That is very anecdotal and just comes across as very anti US.

ChRoMe

lemon_remon wrote: »

That is very anecdotal and just comes across as very anti US.

Anecdotal? Its the definition of how an average is calculated. It is in fact in every possible way, the complete opposite of anecdotal evidence.

Its not anti US at all, the only thing I'm anti is an Irish person equating their experience in Ireland and super imposing that on other countries for a view of how the world works. Thats doomed to failure and frustration from the start.

lemon_remon

ChRoMe wrote: »

Anecdotal? Its the definition of how an average is calculated. It is in fact in every possible way, the complete opposite of anecdotal evidence.

For all you know the distribution of wealth doesn't apply to software developers in the US, just because you say it does doesn't make it true.

ChRoMe wrote: »

Its not anti US at all, the only thing I'm anti is an Irish person equating their experience in Ireland and super imposing that on other countries for a view of how the world works. Thats doomed to failure and frustration from the start.

I'm not comparing any sort of "experience", I'm comparing salary figures which is a fair thing to do, in fact people do it all the time. I haven't come to any sort of conclusion on "how the world works", that would be for a completely different discussion on a different forum.

Sparks

ChRoMe wrote: »

You really dont see any issues with comparing a country with 300 million people with one that has 4 million. Completely different tax regulations both on a national and local level? Really?

There are huge issues with doing that, but...

...given how many people are considering (or being forced to undertake) emigration, it's something people are having to attempt, if only to pick a destination. Switzerland or New Zealand? Canada or Australia? Hong Kong or Germany?

That's about all the value I can see in this thread, but it's such a significant little nugget of information that the thread seems worthwhile....if we kept at least in the vicinity of that point. Just arguing about whether the salary in California was better or worse than the salary in Dublin isn't hugely productive unless you're considering emigration...

ChRoMe wrote: »

**** that. You aware of what an "at will" state's labour laws are? Its ****ing stone age stuff.

Not quite stone age really, more victorian england in the days of the early industrial revolution, complete with all the lovely abuse employees were subjected to by employers at the time and the lack of legal protections. Some of the stuff you see reported from the US these days, you'd wonder how on earth any sane human would accept it begin done to them

ChRoMe

Sparks wrote: »

...given how many people are considering (or being forced to undertake) emigration, it's something people are having to attempt, if only to pick a destination. Switzerland or New Zealand? Canada or Australia? Hong Kong or Germany?

That's about all the value I can see in this thread,

As an Irish software developer who has been in London for several years. Watching such comparisons being done in the decision making process for deciding where to emigrate to wakes me fear for the people doing them.

Its nearly worse than doing no research at all.

ChRoMe

lemon_remon wrote: »

For all you know the distribution of wealth doesn't apply to software developers in the US, just because you say it does doesn't make it true.



I'm not comparing any sort of "experience", I'm comparing salary figures which is a fair thing to do, in fact people do it all the time. I haven't come to any sort of conclusion on "how the world works", that would be for a completely different discussion on a different forum.

You are just getting confused on the comparisons. Irish developers are not underpaid, the variations you are seeing is explained by the fact that the top jobs, the real best in the world stuff. Does not exist in Ireland. These top jobs are in the US,UK and other larger economies. There are many reasons for this, which you can go and read about on your own if you want.

Ireland, has a large but quality range of mid level software development positions. So its not a case that their are underpaid ,its the distortion provided by the top sectors of the larger economies.

Ps I don't think you know what the word anecdotal means....

lemon_remon

ChRoMe wrote: »

You are just getting confused on the comparisons. Irish developers are not underpaid, the variations you are seeing is explained by the fact that the top jobs, the real best in the world stuff. Does not exist in Ireland. These top jobs are in the US,UK and other larger economies. There are many reasons for this, which you can go and read about on your own if you want.

Ireland, has a large but quality range of mid level software development positions. So its not a case that their are underpaid ,its the distortion provided by the top sectors of the larger economies.

Ireland has Google, Amazon, Dropbox, Facebook, Microsoft etc. which should mean there are people earning "top" salaries here. The jobs which you describe i.e "best in the world stuff", are, by defintion, not in high abundance and should not affect data that much. Besides that, the figures I provided in the OP are graduate jobs with a large deviation. This is hardly "best in the world" stuff and suggests there may be a large difference at all levels.

ChRoMe wrote: »

Ps I don't think you know what the word anecdotal means....

Not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research.

Very applicable to your description of jobs in the US.