Are Irish developers underpaid?

ChRoMe

lemon_remon wrote: »

Ireland has Google, Amazon, Dropbox, Facebook, Microsoft etc. which should mean there are people earning "top" salaries here. The jobs which you describe i.e "best in the world stuff", are, by defintion, not in high abundance and should not affect data that much. Besides that, the figures I provided in the OP are graduate jobs with a large deviation. This is hardly "best in the world" stuff and suggests there may be a large difference at all levels.



Very applicable to your description of jobs in the US.

Yeah all those MNC's have European HQ here for tax reasons, amusingly very few of the jobs are software development (some of them none at all). Not one of those companies major development happens in Ireland. Google is HR,infrastructure and accounting departments. Facebook's only real engineering centre outside of the US, is here in London in Covent Garden etc.

You replied with "anecdotal" to me when I explained that averages incorporated the high end spectrum of jobs in a larger economy.

I've had enough of this now, silly me should have realised that someone about to graduate university, has surley learned all there is to know...

IRLConor

Supply. Demand. Difference between two.

That's the primary reason salaries are different for similar jobs in different locations.

The difference between supply and demand is greater in San Francisco/Silicon Valley than it is in Dublin so obviously the availability of big salaries is smaller here. Ditto for the difference between Dublin and the rest of the country.

It's not rocket science.

lemon_remon

ChRoMe wrote: »

Yeah all those MNC's have European HQ here for tax reasons, amusingly very few of the jobs are software development (some of them none at all). Not one of those companies major development happens in Ireland. Google is HR,infrastructure and accounting departments. Facebook's only real engineering centre outside of the US, is here in London in Covent Garden etc.

Depends how you define major development. Amazon build large parts of their maintenance software for their AWS platform here. Microsoft work on their Azure platform, as well as components of Office. I'm not sure of the exact work that Google does in Dublin, but I'm confident that it too could fall under the category of "major development". Obviously, they're not doing as much as they are in their American branches because they are smaller branches but there is serious development happening in Ireland.

ChRoMe wrote: »

You replied with "anecdotal" to me when I explained that averages incorporated the high end spectrum of jobs in a larger economy.

It doesn't explain anything. There aren't that many "top jobs". I doubt there's that much a difference in the percentage of top jobs in Ireland compared to the US. Besides, as I said, what I provided was for graduate jobs.

ChRoMe wrote: »

How many months (weeks?) of professional development experience are you drawing from?

This is irrelevant to the discussion.

IRLConor

lemon_remon wrote: »

Besides, as I said, what I provided was for graduate jobs.

One further point on supply v demand with respect to graduate jobs: Until they're desperate for warm bodies most companies will avoid hiring inexperienced graduates (since they're very often a net loss making prospect). Thus, the demand for inexperienced graduates is almost always low and hence salaries for such candidates are also almost always low.

It's only in times/locations where demand greatly outstrips supply that you see big money salaries going to inexperienced graduates.

ChRoMe

lemon_remon wrote: »

Depends how you define major development.

Core product development. The facebook feed algo, the google search algo etc

ChRoMe

Perfect timing.

Read today's following piece in the Irish Times regarding the "tech giants" in Dublin.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2013/0209/1224329821083.html

Notice how few (any?) jobs that are mentioned in the article are development jobs. I could be wrong but I dont think a single coding job is mentioned.

AlmightyCushion

ChRoMe wrote: »

Perfect timing.

Read today's following piece in the Irish Times regarding the "tech giants" in Dublin.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2013/0209/1224329821083.html

Notice how few (any?) jobs that are mentioned in the article are development jobs. I could be wrong but I dont think a single coding job is mentioned.

The article focuses on immigrants working in these tech companies so it's not surprising most are doing jobs where their language skills are useful or essential.

lemon_remon

ChRoMe wrote: »

Core product development. The facebook feed algo, the google search algo etc

It's not fair to only consider only those teams as core developers. The google search engine team is kept purposely tiny. It's <15 people. I imagine the situation at places like facebook is similar (or not as their **** is always breaking).

ChRoMe wrote: »

Perfect timing.

Read today's following piece in the Irish Times regarding the "tech giants" in Dublin.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2013/0209/1224329821083.html

Notice how few (any?) jobs that are mentioned in the article are development jobs. I could be wrong but I dont think a single coding job is mentioned.

It's talking about language support jobs, you've missed the point of the article.

https://www.google.com/about/jobs/search/?#!t=jo&jid=32152&

https://uk-amazon.icims.com/jobs/204050/job?in_iframe=1

http://www.microsoft-careers.com/job/Dublin-Software-Development-Engineer-%28SDE%29-Job/2375415/

Just some I found from a search.

IRLConor wrote: »

One further point on supply v demand with respect to graduate jobs: Until they're desperate for warm bodies most companies will avoid hiring inexperienced graduates (since they're very often a net loss making prospect). Thus, the demand for inexperienced graduates is almost always low and hence salaries for such candidates are also almost always low.

It's only in times/locations where demand greatly outstrips supply that you see big money salaries going to inexperienced graduates.

According to many companies they are short on talent. So why don't the salaries match? Or do they, I'm open to correction?

ChRoMe wrote: »

I've had enough of this now, silly me should have realised that someone about to graduate university, has surley learned all there is to know...

I missed this edit earlier but I certainly don't think I've adopted this position. If anything that is the attitude you seem to have taken but swap "about to graduate" to "a few years experience".

IRLConor

lemon_remon wrote: »

According to many companies they are short on talent. So why don't the salaries match? Or do they, I'm open to correction?

I thought you were talking about graduates? Graduates are not talent.

Inexperienced graduates are potential talent if you have the resources to afford to teach them and the ability to persuade them to stay long enough to recoup your investment in them. That's a rare luxury in this industry - there are plenty of rich companies and there are plenty of cool companies that are fun to work at but there aren't too many that are both.

Experienced graduates are another story altogether, but I don't think they have too many issues getting paid more than the salaries you quoted in your OP.

cython

lemon_remon wrote: »

I don't see what that was to do with things. A "professional" is a professional. The average American university is comparable to the likes of Irish universities, so why are the graduates worth so much less?

They actually have one big difference on the surface - cost. It costs a lot more for third-level education in the US, and as a result grads there can have much more student debt to pay off afterwards, so even less of this supposed higher pay actually gets to them for quite some time

Manach

Perhaps instead of a comparison with the US, a starting point might be Irish public sector wages for compariable experience? Not there would be a number of an issues, the exact comparing of like for like etc, but it would establish ballpark figures which are in the public domain and so available.

srsly78

The public sector seems to outsource development from what I have seen. I know some guys in public sector it support jobs but not development really. They seem to get in Accenture et al for horribly overpriced contracts.

I know some contractors working for various consultancies that do software development for public sector. A strange situation because contractor vs public sector job are polar opposites

markpb

ChRoMe wrote: »

Core product development. The facebook feed algo, the google search algo etc

I think you're a few years behind the curve if you think those things are core to those companies any more. The software that captures and processes vast amounts of customer data, the profiling and advertising software and the software that manages data centres and hundreds of thousands of servers across the world are vastly more complicated, more valuable and more profitable than a search algorithm.

ChRoMe

markpb wrote: »

I think you're a few years behind the curve if you think those things are core to those companies any more. The software that captures and processes vast amounts of customer data, the profiling and advertising software and the software that manages data centres and hundreds of thousands of servers across the world are vastly more complicated, more valuable and more profitable than a search algorithm.

Its not the complexity of the engineering, its the proximity to capital which makes it more valuable.

COYW

srsly78 wrote: »

The public sector seems to outsource development from what I have seen. I know some guys in public sector it support jobs but not development really. They seem to get in Accenture et al for horribly overpriced contracts.

I know some contractors working for various consultancies that do software development for public sector. A strange situation because contractor vs public sector job are polar opposites

Yep, I am working for a company at the moment who deals solely with public sector clients. Accenture, Deloitte etc are brought in to develop software by all of them for insane daily rates.

On graduate salaries, my brother is a graduate who just started working and he is on €19,000. He is working in Sys Admin for a consulting type company, Irish owned.

ChRoMe

COYW wrote: »

On graduate salaries, my brother is a graduate who just started working and he is on €19,000. He is working in Sys Admin for a consulting type company, Irish owned.

:eek:

Creamy Goodness

Seriously 19k? What kind of graduate is he? He should be looking to move if he isn't already.

ChRoMe

Creamy Goodness wrote: »

Seriously 19k? What kind of graduate is he? He should be looking to move if he isn't already.

I think its probably more "1st level support" than "system administrator" to be honest. Which 19k is what I'd imagine that sort of position warrants.

Whichever it is, it defo aint a development role.

dazberry

ChRoMe wrote: »

I think its probably more "1st level support" than "system administrator" to be honest. Which 19k is what I'd imagine that sort of position warrants.

Whichever it is, it defo aint a development role.

You missed the bit "consulting type company, Irish owned". I worked for a "consulting type company, Irish owned" for 8.5k when most grads were going into localisation at 12k. I took the job predicated on getting experience in MFC and VC++ (which was the hot ticket then) and of course didn't as I mainly ended up doing x86 assembly language, although it wasn't beyond the impossible to find say a HPUX manual on my desk and be told to go out somewhere as a consultant and do something at their vastly overpriced hourly rate - shysters.

D.

Sparks

Yeah, that's a common enough story...

Trojan

dazberry wrote: »

it wasn't beyond the impossible to find say a HPUX manual on my desk and be told to go out somewhere as a consultant and do something at their vastly overpriced hourly rate - shysters.

"Ah sure isn't it great experience?"

ChRoMe

Trojan wrote: »

"Ah sure isn't it great experience?"

If its your first job.... it probably is tbh.

Sparks

ChRoMe wrote: »

If its your first job.... it probably is tbh.

To be honest, if we were being honest, we'd use the other word that describes what it is you're doing when you claim to be a consultant on a topic and convey the impression of expertise in that topic to the client despite having none and having basicly been dropped in it by your boss that morning.

I mean, there's being thrown in at the deep end so you learn to swim; and then there's being thrown in as chum. In a few small companies in Ireland, it's very much the latter

ChRoMe

Sparks wrote: »

convey the impression of expertise in that topic to the client despite having none and having basicly been dropped in it by your boss that morning.

Thats a relevant industry skill, not to mention a pretty valuable one too!

I'm being facetious here.... kinda.

Trojan

I'm happy to say I never experienced it myself, probably because I was working in multinationals on dev teams a long way from client facing roles. But I know some guys it happened to.

Facing customers with their own tech guys who know a thousand times more than you about what you've been brought in as the expert on? And who resent the hourly rate your company is charging when compared to their take-home? Not at all pleasant, and totally unfair to a graduate, nevermind potentially fraudulent to charge the client for it.

Sparks

Yup, and it's no less fun when the client doesn't know enough to know the difference but you do
There are some places I'm not in the least little bit upset about no longer working in!

ChRoMe

Trojan wrote: »

And who resent the hourly rate your company is charging when compared to their take-home?

That is always the case with contractors, regardless if they know their stuff or not. I don't have time for anyone who behaves in such a manner, you want contracting rates? Go ****ing contract.

The rest are all fair points, while uncomfortable for the grad, knowing how to deal with those types of situations are important.

Graduates in the US could be starting their working life with $20,000 to $50,000 in student loans. Starting salaries need to reflect this otherwise people wouldn't study computer science.

srsly78

ChRoMe wrote: »

That is always the case with contractors, regardless if they know their stuff or not. I don't have time for anyone who behaves in such a manner, you want contracting rates? Go ****ing contract.

The rest are all fair points, while uncomfortable for the grad, knowing how to deal with those types of situations are important.

Apparently Irish contractors are underpaid too

dazberry

ChRoMe wrote: »

If its your first job.... it probably is tbh.

Unfortunately not all experience is created equal. It took me 19 long months to get another job back then, as the core of the stuff I was doing was x86 DOS device drivers - zero market. The next job I got because of my hobby Turbo Pascal experience.

Sparks wrote: »

Yup, and it's no less fun when the client doesn't know enough to know the difference but you do
There are some places I'm not in the least little bit upset about no longer working in!

Yep, in that position atm. Old product, considered EOL-ed but still licenced on a handful of customer sites. Not fit for purpose, generally no updates or fixes but found myself on customer site discussing a feature request one day - really embarrassed when asked what it was written in. Have proposed a couple of options to try improve things, but manglement have shot down all. Exit strategy planned for later this year...

D.