The Fall (RTE1/BBC2) [** Spoilers **]

Dan_Solo

Bacchus wrote: »

@Dan_Solo - Why does the corruption side story or who's banging who need to be resolved? They were just window dressing to the main story. Jimmy's problem was that he thought Spector was banging his wife. Thought that was made very clear. 10 armed cops? 4 at most. There were 4-6 of them there before 2 left to go nab the reporter. That left 2-4 armed cops plus Spector & Stella's bit on the side. Jimmy got put down pretty quickly too. As I mentioned above, ditching the chopper in the car is a bit 'WTF' but sneaking through the woods while the cops are focused on a crime scene isn't that much of a stretch.

I would just think as soon as the crime scene was compromised the cops would get a bit more trigger happy. Even better Spector into a van or something. Terrorist guy's whole motivation for a suicide mission seemed ridiculous from the off to me. Sure, he hates Spector, but he looks like he's bumped people off before and walking into the middle of a ring of armed cops just seems nuts.
The problem with all the police corruption etc. is that it added nothing significant to the story. Multiple non-related storylines just makes it a soap. If they left out all that crap they could have had one tight 6 parter, and dare I say it, could have been a masterpiece.

Dan_Solo

Bacchus wrote: »

Me too. I've liked that subplot that has gone through the series but it feels like things could have been tee'd up a bit neater in the run up to the finale. As it was done, things just feel in to place a bit too easily and it made it quite obvious early on that he was going to kill Spector.

Guy on street sees woman in secret location and phones terrorist, terrorist's wife deliberately antagonises terrorist by lying about banging Spector, guy in police station phones reporter, terrorist meets reporter and steals his car (FFS again, PSNI cops must have zerp peripheral vision), terrorist finds reporter again and they both get to within a few yards of Spector without helicopter seeing the car...

Meathlass

Bacchus wrote: »

Also, cool to see Stella show her true colours at the final moment. She raced to aid Spector, not her fellow officer (and toy boy).

Presumably Anderson was wearing a vest so wouldn't have been wounded (he's already sitting up with the other officer in the final scene) so the logical thing to do was go to the badly wounded man and try and stop the bleeding (Jimmy's probably dead and even if Stagg had a vest there was already somebody with him)

Meathlass

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Terrorist guy's whole motivation for a suicide mission seemed ridiculous from the off to me. Sure, he hates Spector, but he looks like he's bumped people off before and walking into the middle of a ring of armed cops just seems nuts.

Jimmy isn't exactly the smartest. He's already tried to execute Spector in a public place in Belfast obviously to who might have been looking on. I would say it's completely in his character, on finding out that Spector shagged his wife, to walk into the scene guns blazing.

The Black Oil

Dan_Solo wrote: »

WTFFFFFFFFFFF.
Nothing, absolutely nothing at all tied up. What was the whole "corruption" side story about? Or the pathologist shagging Tom Stagg? Once again a police cordon can't even see a car approaching... even when they have a helicopter? What the hell was that IRA dude's problem too? Walking into a circle of 10 armed cops with a gun? Ah come off it!
Katy... nothing happened at all really.
Gibson shagging yer man FFS.
No lads, just NO.

iirc, starting out, it was a convoy more than a cordon. Once you start to shed uniforms by sending a few off to chase after the hack, you're in trouble. Most of the vibe of the final act was Spector attempting to be in control - trope alert, granted. Jimmy probably left the car back a fair bit. I'd agree that the helicopter thing is more questionable. In an earlier episode they used its infra red capability. I presume this would have some use to see through forest to a degree, even in daylight.

Anyway, this is TV. Breaches are par for the course. Flakey integrity of a crime scene, evidence and potentially compromised characters are simply the done thing. If it's 24 there's a mole in CTU or conspiracy close to/within the political administration. In Hannibal, a reporter manages to charm a detective and get footage of Will Graham at work and posts it online. If this were a James Patterson Alex Cross novel a cop would be in on it.

I'm not sure why you expected those things to be tied up. With the Danish/Swedish show The Bridge they promptly dropped threads and minor characters in its season 1 finale.

Hrududu wrote: »

They really dragged that out. The interview scene between Spector an Gibson was all over the place. Some of his lines were almost laughable. Especially all the stuff that was supposed to make him sound deep.

The focus of that scene seemed pretty clear. Show him as arrogant and so on. Might it have been more chilling or credible with a better actor than Dornan? Sure.

Bacchus

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Guy on street sees woman in secret location and phones terrorist, terrorist's wife deliberately antagonises terrorist by lying about banging Spector, guy in police station phones reporter, terrorist meets reporter and steals his car (FFS again, PSNI cops must have zerp peripheral vision), terrorist finds reporter again and they both get to within a few yards of Spector without helicopter seeing the car...

Yup, as I said in my review and subsequent post, I thought Jimmy was too conveniently put in the right place & time to shoot Spector. It would have been better if they built up something properly instead of allowing a series of happy coincidences lead him right to Spector. For example, could they not have used his crime roots to have his buddies watching the station? Just doing that would have given a far more believable way of letting Jimmy find out they were moving Spector.

jezzer

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I could almost forgive them for missing one guy walking around, but how did they miss the car they arrived in completely? Much like Spector doing a u-ey at his cottage, it just beggars belief.
No, no, he served a purpose. Scully got to say, yet again, that men are ****, oh and here's four different phrases for sex to make her sound like a dirty ho at the same time. Bizarre scene altogether.
As suspected, there were just too many plot holes and dead ends accumulating and it just didn't look like the last episode could possibly tie it all up. If it did I could have forgiven the show, but nope. Absolutely nothing.

Yes, i cant understand why they persisted with depicting scully as a ho, i too thought that about the four sex phrases she used, utterly unwarranted

Yes, if the finale was decent i could forgive the poor series but it was terrible

jezzer

Ceist_Beag wrote: »

I thought it was a poor enough ending as well. Tickle_Me_Elmo the problem I have with it is that it was all too convenient. As has been pointed out, the helicopter can see the journo in his brown coat under the canopy of trees, yet they can't spot the silver car driving along? Jimmy then bursts out of the trees firing his gun yet those standing around didn't see him approach or even hear him? The journo and loyalist knew exactly where to go as well even though Stella and the gang were only what turn offs to take seconds before taking them?
The interview scene between Stella and Spector were cringeworthy at times. It would have read well in a book and given the right actor for Spector could have been chilling but unfortunately Dornan was not credible in his performance here. And as for Cantona, what a tosser and waste of a script that character was.
The whole thing just lacked any real tension or credibility which is a pity because there was a good story in there which could have been delivered so much better.

I fully agree on all counts, they initially developed cantona by bringing the munroe thing then they just gave up on his character, nothing about the corruption at all, he looked like a wally in the finale

Yes, excellent point, "the woods" is massive, how did the loyalist know exactly where to find them and how none of the cops seen him approach with a gun was just plain stupid, again, the shows attempt to depict cops as utterly useless.

All the cops interviewing was pathetic, all speaking in dull monotones and then spector just like that, decides to spill all, i was sitting there saying....wtf???? is this it now???? and then they dragged it out for another 45 minutes, dornan is a very poor actor and did this show no favours

jezzer

Meathlass wrote: »

I watched it this morning before work and really enjoyed it.

After all Paul's talk of having the power of life and death in his hands and watching someone die, Stella got to do the same to him. She cradled him as if he was a lover and genuinely distraught at his death.

The scene where Jimmy finds his wife was terrifying. I thought he would beat her to death. Olivia's interaction with her father in the police station showed her innocence (and gullibility - how did she not realize he was in jail?) and his tenderness.

They emphasized time and time again that rape and sexual crimes are not about sex but about power - Paul categorically insisting that he never performed sexual acts on his victims, Stella's story about women fearing men will kill them while men are only worried about being laughed at, Stella's rebuttal of Cantona for his attack on her ("you crossed a line, I said no and you kept going").

Sure they were huge plot holes and I found Katie to be purely a source of titillation for the viewer. Paul was unable to answer the question as to why she as a child wasn't to be protected like Olivia. I'd love to see her reaction when she finds out he's dead (hopefully).

I don't mind that they didn't tie up the loose ends. Perhaps they're mimicking the media. Once a suspect has been arrested the public lose focus on the details of a case and will move on to the next media storm forgetting about all the victims.

I think the problem here is you are reading into it too much as you are summising all this but it was not played out in the acting or writing, certainly as you speak of, the show had great potential to be what you have summised but that was not carried through in the writing or acting sadly

Meathlass

jezzer wrote: »

I think the problem here is you are reading into it too much as you are summising all this but it was not played out in the acting or writing, certainly as you speak of, the show had great potential to be what you have summised but that was not carried through in the writing or acting sadly

With the exception of my last comment on tying up the loose ends which is surmised I'd stand over my other comments. I thought it was all spelt out fairly clearly, particularly in the interrogation scene when Spector elaborated on his reasons for his crimes.

jezzer

Meathlass wrote: »

With the exception of my last comment on tying up the loose ends which is surmised I'd stand over my other comments. I thought it was all spelt out fairly clearly, particularly in the interrogation scene when Spector elaborated on his reasons for his crimes.

Interrogation is a bit of an over statement....they all spoke in monotones, wouldnt frighten a 5 year old into a confession yet spector decides to just spill all anyway....

Meathlass

jezzer wrote: »

Interrogation is a bit of an over statement....they all spoke in monotones, wouldnt frighten a 5 year old into a confession yet spector decides to just spill all anyway....

Because he wanted to. He never thought he'd get away with it, this was always his fate and he'd accepted it. His biggest kick was getting to describe in detail to Stella how he killed his victims and how they made him feel.

Also at the end when he was talking to Anderson in the woods was there a sense of regret in his voice for his actions when he told Anderson not to sleep with Stella as the fantasy is always better than the act itself?

The Black Oil

I missed what Rose had carved into her arms. Did anyone make it out?

Meathlass

The Black Oil wrote: »

I missed what Rose had carved into her arms. Did anyone make it out?

I love you

creepy huh :eek:

The Black Oil

Yeah, it looked a bit like that. Thanks.

bazermc

Cheese Wagstaff wrote: »

Cantona must easily be one the most annoying and hypocritical TV characters ever.
.

Great footballer though :D:D:D:D

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Ceist_Beag wrote: »

I thought it was a poor enough ending as well. Tickle_Me_Elmo the problem I have with it is that it was all too convenient. As has been pointed out, the helicopter can see the journo in his brown coat under the canopy of trees, yet they can't spot the silver car driving along? Jimmy then bursts out of the trees firing his gun yet those standing around didn't see him approach or even hear him? The journo and loyalist knew exactly where to go as well even though Stella and the gang were only what turn offs to take seconds before taking them?

My take on those last scenes was that the helicopter could see the journalist because he was out on the open track, he wasn't hidden by tree cover. He got out of his car and took his stuff from the boot before walking to where he spotted Stella. We don't know where Jimmy left the car but seeing as he appeared out of the trees he obviously left it somewhere away from the main scene.
As for how they found exactly where to go... are people seriously asking this question? There's a helicopter hovering over them, FFS!! They knew the specific woods from the guy at the station telling the journalist. Not that hard to spot a helicopter once they get there. Given the way the journalist was walking when he spotted Stella in the woods it appears they approached from the opposite direction than the PSNI did so it's not that much of a stretch to believe that the car coming into the woods somewhere else might not raise attention.

Bacchus wrote: »

@Dan_Solo - Why does the corruption side story or who's banging who need to be resolved? They were just window dressing to the main story. Jimmy's problem was that he thought Spector was banging his wife. Thought that was made very clear. 10 armed cops? 4 at most. There were 4-6 of them there before 2 left to go nab the reporter. That left 2-4 armed cops plus Spector & Stella's bit on the side. Jimmy got put down pretty quickly too. As I mentioned above, ditching the chopper in the car is a bit 'WTF' but sneaking through the woods while the cops are focused on a crime scene isn't that much of a stretch.

It looked like there were 2 armed officers still on the scene when Jimmy appeared. Two in the other car had been sent after the journalist and the jeep that had followed them seemed to have gone too, perhaps with the ambulance that Rose was in.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

jezzer wrote: »

I think the problem here is you are reading into it too much as you are summising all this but it was not played out in the acting or writing, certainly as you speak of, the show had great potential to be what you have summised but that was not carried through in the writing or acting sadly

Jezzer, it sounds like you wanted something very cut and dry from this show. It was never going to be that way. Serial killers don't make sense, their thoughts and actions don't make sense. Rape, violence and murder don't make sense. It's not one of these shows where all they need is some silly motive like revenge or jealousy to throw the book at someone.

Personally I think they did a great job of explaining, as much as possible, how Specter's mind worked and yes, there are some parts where you need to read between the lines and interpret things for yourself, but that's good TV surely? It makes you think, you have to talk to someone about it after to see if they took things the same way as you did.

The Black Oil wrote: »

I missed what Rose had carved into her arms. Did anyone make it out?

Meathlass wrote: »

I love you

creepy huh :eek:

Did she do that herself? Thinking she was going to die he wanted to send a message to her husband and kids? Or did he do it to her? He left her alive but scarred for life, mentally and physically.

Meathlass

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Did she do that herself? Thinking she was going to die he wanted to send a message to her husband and kids? Or did he do it to her? He left her alive but scarred for life, mentally and physically.

Well it was on her left arm so presuming she's right handed there's a couple of options.

1. She did it to herself for her husband and child - unlikely I'd say
2. He forced her to do it to prove she loved him - possible but it was fairly neat so doubt she could do it that neatly to herself
3. He did it to her - best option

He didn't seem to care whether she lived or died or was that just a front for Anderson since he left food and water with her?

The Black Oil

Meathlass wrote: »

Olivia's interaction with her father in the police station showed her innocence (and gullibility - how did she not realize he was in jail?) and his tenderness.

I preferred the earlier scene where Olivia was talking to female officer about the picture, lies and secrets. I felt that really spoke to her innocence. The later one did too, of course, but watching live I thought the earlier one was stronger. When I was in college one of my lecturers spoke a little about his experiences as a clinical forensic interviewer with individuals with intellectual disability had been abused. Whilst that doesn't apply to the daughter, it sounds like a very challenging task indeed.

tayto lover

In future I want to see the last episode FIRST before i'd consider watching another of these. Crap.

Dan_Solo

Meathlass wrote: »

Well it was on her left arm so presuming she's right handed there's a couple of options.

1. She did it to herself for her husband and child - unlikely I'd say
2. He forced her to do it to prove she loved him - possible but it was fairly neat so doubt she could do it that neatly to herself
3. He did it to her - best option

I'd go with #1, as it looked like it wasn't fully completed? If Spector had done it he'd have finished the job.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

The Black Oil wrote: »

I preferred the earlier scene where Olivia was talking to female officer about the picture, lies and secrets. I felt that really spoke to her innocence. The later one did too, of course, but watching live I thought the earlier one was stronger. When I was in college one of my lecturers spoke a little about his experiences as a clinical forensic interviewer with individuals with intellectual disability had been abused. Whilst that doesn't apply to the daughter, it sounds like a very challenging task indeed.

Yes, where she made it clear she knew the difference between truth and lies but still proceeded to lie and quite convincingly. I thought it was interesting to look at Olivia compared to Katie. Katie was lying to protect Paul because he'd manipulated her, she thought he loved her, it was all coming from a very dark and twisty place. Olivia lied without even being asked to. It was purely on instinct she lied to protect her father. The fact that later she didn't really seem to know he had been arrested made the earlier scene all the more striking.

@Meathlass - I can't remember the young detective's name but it's not Stag, that's Rose and her husband.

jezzer

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Jezzer, it sounds like you wanted something very cut and dry from this show. It was never going to be that way. Serial killers don't make sense, their thoughts and actions don't make sense. Rape, violence and murder don't make sense. It's not one of these shows where all they need is some silly motive like revenge or jealousy to throw the book at someone.

Personally I think they did a great job of explaining, as much as possible, how Specter's mind worked and yes, there are some parts where you need to read between the lines and interpret things for yourself, but that's good TV surely? It makes you think, you have to talk to someone about it after to see if they took things the same way as you did.


Did she do that herself? Thinking she was going to die he wanted to send a message to her husband and kids? Or did he do it to her? He left her alive but scarred for life, mentally and physically.

Serial killers dont decide to 'fess up just because some sex crazed detective speaks to them in a monotone, terribly badly written and acted out

jezzer

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Yes, where she made it clear she knew the difference between truth and lies but still proceeded to lie and quite convincingly. I thought it was interesting to look at Olivia compared to Katie. Katie was lying to protect Paul because he'd manipulated her, she thought he loved her, it was all coming from a very dark and twisty place. Olivia lied without even being asked to. It was purely on instinct she lied to protect her father. The fact that later she didn't really seem to know he had been arrested made the earlier scene all the more striking.

@Meathlass - I can't remember the young detective's name but it's not Stag, that's Rose and her husband.

i think its anderson, stagg is roses husband who is also tipping the indian professor (another storyline cast aside)

Meathlass

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I'd go with #1, as it looked like it wasn't fully completed? If Spector had done it he'd have finished the job.

Naw, I don't buy it. She hardly did it in the cramped confined of the dark boot and she wouldn't have had a chance to do it earlier. I'd say Spector forced her to do it to prove her love to him as she rejected him or else he did it to her himself.

Meathlass

jezzer wrote: »

i think its anderson, stagg is roses husband who is also tipping the indian professor (another storyline cast aside)

Thanks, you're right. Tom Anderson is his name.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

jezzer wrote: »

Serial killers dont decide to 'fess up just because some sex crazed detective speaks to them in a monotone, terribly badly written and acted out

You know a lot of serial killers, do you?

It's been made abundantly clear that being in control is of most importance to Paul. He always knew he was going to get caught. He said it to Katie a few episodes ago that being a serial killer is a slow form of suicide. He always expected to get caught and for him it was about controlling how that happened. He didn't have a problem telling Stella everything because it was all done on his terms.

Dan_Solo

Meathlass wrote: »

Naw, I don't buy it. She hardly did it in the cramped confined of the dark boot and she wouldn't have had a chance to do it earlier. I'd say Spector forced her to do it to prove her love to him as she rejected him or else he did it to her himself.

But we know Spector is a perfectionist. It just isn't his MO to leave something as a half assed job if he can help it.

Dan_Solo

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

You know a lot of serial killers, do you?

It's been made abundantly clear that being in control is of most importance to Paul. He always knew he was going to get caught. He said it to Katie a few episodes ago that being a serial killer is a slow form of suicide. He always expected to get caught and for him it was about controlling how that happened. He didn't have a problem telling Stella everything because it was all done on his terms.

Which is why how easily Gibson got to him during interrogation, something he was 100% expecting, didn't make any sense. He'd already resigned himself to prison (or death).