The Fall (RTE1/BBC2) [** Spoilers **]

The Black Oil

jezzer wrote: »

Serial killers dont decide to 'fess up just because some sex crazed detective speaks to them in a monotone, terribly badly written and acted out

Watch The Shield and Homicide: LOTS. You'd be surprised at what can happen in a room with two people and a desk.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Which is why how easily Gibson got to him during interrogation, something he was 100% expecting, didn't make any sense. He'd already resigned himself to prison (or death).

He destroyed loads of the evidence that linked him to the murders, he had Katie manipulated into lying and providing alibis, he had lots of areas covered.
I think his intention was to sit it out and see what they could make stick, which wasn't looking like being very much. It was only when the other female detective revealed that they'd found the shears with his prints and Joe Brawley's blood on them that he decided to speak to Stella. I don't think he was expecting that so when it started to look like they were one step ahead he decided to take control back and talk to Stella.

Ceist_Beag

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

As for how they found exactly where to go... are people seriously asking this question? There's a helicopter hovering over them, FFS!! They knew the specific woods from the guy at the station telling the journalist. Not that hard to spot a helicopter once they get there. Given the way the journalist was walking when he spotted Stella in the woods it appears they approached from the opposite direction than the PSNI did so it's not that much of a stretch to believe that the car coming into the woods somewhere else might not raise attention.

The helicopter was only spotted after the journo was dropped off (within very short walking distance of where the team were)!
Fair enough on it's own, finding the location might not be a stretch but when you piece it all together it's just so convenient to lack credibility. For example Jimmy just happened to smash his own phone after receiving the call about where his wife was - why? He didn't need to smash it but it was convenient as it meant the writer could make us understand why he would steal the phone from the journo. But he didn't need a phone for anything so he didn't need to steal it from the journo. He also didn't need to steal the car as he had his own van. But it was very convenient as it meant the journo could ring him back (on the phone he needlessly stole) to get his car back. Then he manages to make his way to the journo and find their way to the exact location in the (vast) woods where it was all going on (as I said above, the helicopter only appeared when they were at the right spot as we saw Jimmy look up at it after he dropped the journo off), all only minutes after Stella had arrived?
Look like I said, had this been well acted and delivered then I wouldn't be nit picking details like this - it's just a sign of how little I bought into it from early on that all these details annoyed. As Dan said, this could have been a cracking 6 episode drama if delivered well, without all the pointless sub plots and poor characters.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Ceist_Beag wrote: »

Fair enough on it's own, finding the location might not be a stretch but when you piece it all together it's just so convenient to lack credibility. For example Jimmy just happened to smash his own phone after receiving the call about where his wife was - why? He didn't need to smash it but it was convenient as it meant the writer could make us understand why he would steal the phone from the journo. But he didn't need a phone for anything so he didn't need to steal it from the journo. He also didn't need to steal the car as he had his own van. But it was very convenient as it meant the journo could ring him back (on the phone he needlessly stole) to get his car back. Then he manages to make his way to the journo and find their way to the exact location in the (vast) woods where it was all going on (as I said above, the helicopter only appeared when they were at the right spot as we saw Jimmy look up at it after he dropped the journo off), all only minutes after Stella had arrived?

I won't argue with you about the helicopter, I'd have to watch it again to be sure.

As for Jimmy... he's out on bail and he had just been involved in an attempted murder in broad daylight, an incident where a police officer was shot at. They had a description of him from the guy who called it in, Jimmy could even have assumed Specter would have told the police it was him. So he smashed his phone, cut off the tracker on his ankle and ditched his van. Why? Obviously to avoid being caught.

Now you could argue why go to all that trouble if he was just going to walk into a crime scene and shoot a guy, but at this point in the episode he hadn't even found his wife yet and, I'd assume, wasn't planning on killing Specter the way that he did. He was obviously still going after him, as he turned up outside his house but he wasn't expecting to find the house crawling with PSNI. After the confrontation with the wife he lost the plot completely and obviously just wanted to kill Specter regardless of where or how.

wonderfullife

jezzer wrote: »

Serial killers dont decide to 'fess up just because some sex crazed detective speaks to them in a monotone, terribly badly written and acted out

jezzer wrote: »

Serial killers dont decide to 'fess up just because some sex crazed detective speaks to them in a monotone, terribly badly written and acted out

The above is completely overlooking the fact he was presented with overwhelming evidence of his guilt - if they had nothing on him and he "fessed up" it would be totally out of sync with Spectors character. As it stood, they had a mountain of evidence against him, he knew the game was up and he regained "control" of his destiny by choosing a) when and b) who to confess to.

The Fall is by no means perfect, few (if any) dramas are. Even stand-out shows like The Wire and Luther had certain contrivances, certain elements of weak acting, certain plot elements open to criticism. The Fall did a lot of things very well and that sets the bar fairly high in itself.

The problem on a very basic level is that the resolution to a Whydunnit story can never have the same tension as the resolution to a Whodunnit. Similarly, there's more scope for twists and turns in a Whodunnit. Anybody expecting a shock twist ending to this story was always going to be let down.

Moreover, no matter what came out of Spectors mouth in the interview scene would be open to criticism. Whether he blamed his childhood, parents, society, the world - or simply said he did it for sh1ts and giggles - it was never going to be a satisfactory explanation. Precisely because there is never a satisfactory explanation for why a person decides to murder multiple people.

In the end, we had 2 protagonists who have been presented to us over 11 episodes as very similar people. Sex-driven, outwardly confident individuals with deep-rooted issues and underneath the bravado, both were something approaching a mess.

Nothing changed in that respect. Whilst it was not very subtle, it spoke volumes that Stella went straight to Spector to stop the bleeding (and not DS Anderson). It also spoke volumes that she showed infinitely more emotion over Spector possibly dying than she did upon uncovering Rose dying. It could be argued that she wants him alive so he can be locked up for life - but it made little sense when placed beside her comments that she "despised him with every fiber of her being". If that's the case, let him bleed and attend to your fellow police officer? Just another example of the character being a bit of a mess.

Overall, the problem i had with The Fall in comparison to The Wire and Luther (my benchmarks), is that when The Fall had it's inevitable dip in material, it couldn't rely on sublime acting performances to see it through. In Luther, Idris Elba delivered such a powerful, consistent performance, so much so that any plot issues or thematic issues seemed to be glossed over by the power of his performance. The Wire was lucky enough to have a few standout performances over the course of it's run.

Jamie Dornan and Gillian Anderson both did well overall. But neither was allowed to truly shine or, crucially, carry the show through it's weaker moments. Anderson had more material to work with, arguably, in season 2 - more emotionally powerful scenes - but i don't think her acting or character was strong enough to carry the show.

It's still a wonderfully good show though. It had some excellent performances from supporting cast, touched on many themes from domestic violence, religious bigotry, parenthood, political stuff - though never really fleshed out fully any of those themes.

In the end, this was always going to come down to Spector and Stella. The sub-plots and peripheral characters went under the radar. Sally-Ann left to deal with losing her husband, the kids losing their father, Rose dealing with her horrifying ordeal, Katie maintaining her obsession......all shunted to the side to a degree and we're left where we started with Spector and Stella remaining 2 outwardly confident, cocky characters with massive issues.

Baggy Trousers

Very dissapointed with last night's episode. I knew from the ads that the IRA guy would show up but it was all a bit ridiculous and predictable. Some good acting, some woeful (the police chief with the beard has no presence).

Betty Bloggs

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Yes, where she made it clear she knew the difference between truth and lies but still proceeded to lie and quite convincingly. I thought it was interesting to look at Olivia compared to Katie. Katie was lying to protect Paul because he'd manipulated her, she thought he loved her, it was all coming from a very dark and twisty place. Olivia lied without even being asked to. It was purely on instinct she lied to protect her father. The fact that later she didn't really seem to know he had been arrested made the earlier scene all the more striking.

@Meathlass - I can't remember the young detective's name but it's not Stag, that's Rose and her husband.

I thought that scene with the daughter was brilliant too. It struck a chord with me somewhat because when I was very young one of my parents had an alcohol addiction and ended up going to a treatment centre. Social workers were involved and I vividly remember being brought into a room with a lady who was asking me questions in that supposedly casual way about my parent's drinking. I had never once been asked to lie this lady, but you can bet your life that I said nothing but praise for my parent and pushed blame for anything bad on other people, and lied through my teeth! They knew I was lying because my parent had already told the truth about drinking problems in the treatment centre and they then even got accused of teaching me to lie for them, but my parent at that time didn't even know that I was going to get asked questions and had never said anything to me about lying.
It just came naturally because I didn't want to to make them look bad or for them to get into trouble because I was very frightened for them.
Obviously not the same scale at all between an otherwise loving parent with an alcohol problem versus a serial killer, (!) but it just reminded me of how I behaved myself back then in that room as a child.

Regarding the I Love You message on Rose's arm, I instantly thought she did it herself too. In the video of her tied up was she not going on about feeling sorry for Paul, and how she had known and felt love, and she was loved and how he'd never have that, something along those lines? I thought it was her final "Fcuk you" to him, that even in her final moments she was feeing the love for her family, that it was more powerful than any fear he could make her feel and he could "never take that away" from her - I thought she said something like that in the video?

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

wonderfullife wrote: »

In the end, we had 2 protagonists who have been presented to us over 11 episodes as very similar people. Sex-driven, outwardly confident individuals with deep-rooted issues and underneath the bravado, both were something approaching a mess.

Nothing changed in that respect. Whilst it was not very subtle, it spoke volumes that Stella went straight to Spector to stop the bleeding (and not DS Anderson). It also spoke volumes that she showed infinitely more emotion over Spector possibly dying than she did upon uncovering Rose dying. It could be argued that she wants him alive so he can be locked up for life - but it made little sense when placed beside her comments that she "despised him with every fiber of her being". If that's the case, let him bleed and attend to your fellow police officer? Just another example of the character being a bit of a mess.

I took this as another example of them being similar people. She was calling all the shots on the investigation, who was on the team, when they arrested him, who arrested him, who interviewed him. She was in control. Jimmy shooting him took the control from her. The loss of control was more upsetting to her than anything else.

Evenstevens

I thought it was a very good series overall but I think had they kept it as one full series instead of two it would have worked better. Series 1 was outstanding for me, absolutely gripping and the tension was sustained throughout. The big gap kind of broke that tension in the second series. the girl who played the babysitter was very good. There was a bit of overkill with the Stella Femme Fatale thing. Everything she owned appeared to be made out of silk or satin... Loved the production values also, all very dark and minimal music worked really well.

The Black Oil

Just to talk up Rose a bit more, and I neglected to mention this in my initial review, I was quite struck by the moment of her gasping for breath 'Jesus, she's alive!' in the car boot. I thought this made for a nice contrast to Spector's interrogation scene. iirc, he specificly mentioned taking someone's last breath. Relief for her, relief for the viewer.

jezzer

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

You know a lot of serial killers, do you?

It's been made abundantly clear that being in control is of most importance to Paul. He always knew he was going to get caught. He said it to Katie a few episodes ago that being a serial killer is a slow form of suicide. He always expected to get caught and for him it was about controlling how that happened. He didn't have a problem telling Stella everything because it was all done on his terms.

why was everything in monotones? had spector not said anything it would have to go to court and they would have to prove it, it didnt make sense in terms of spector's character to just 'fess up

The Black Oil

jezzer wrote: »

why was everything in monotones? had spector not said anything it would have to go to court and they would have to prove it, it didnt make sense in terms of spector's character to just 'fess up

Not really. It was set up with the phone call the season 1 finale. Boil it down and these shows are typically a dance between two characters. As for the monotones, I think Allan Cubitt taking on both writing and directing this year may not have been the best of choices. Good for consistency, but maybe not so much for creative flexibility - directorially, anyway.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

jezzer wrote: »

why was everything in monotones? had spector not said anything it would have to go to court and they would have to prove it, it didnt make sense in terms of spector's character to just 'fess up

I don't see why the tone of their voices makes any difference but if it needs an explanation it may come down to their need to be in control, again. They're not giving anything away, they're not showing any emotion any weakness.

I already explained why he told Stella everything. They had the proof needed in the sheers that killed Joe Brawley. He wasn't expecting that and knew that the control was slipping away from him so he took it back by confessing on his own terms.

rebeve

Had some potential early on , but it went downhill at a rate knots . Best forgotten

Agent Coulson

The Black Oil wrote: »

Watch The Shield and Homicide: LOTS. You'd be surprised at what can happen in a room with two people and a desk.

Some of the best tv ever happened in The Box.

Dan Chipowski

rebeve wrote: »

Had some potential early on , but it went downhill at a rate knots . Best forgotten

Agreed. If this series achieved anything, it was the quite remarkable feat of getting worse with each episode.

MagicMarker

The scene where Jimmy found his wife was hilarious. I've never seen women portrayed as quite so helpless. He batted them away like flies!

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

MagicMarker wrote: »

The scene where Jimmy found his wife was hilarious. I've never seen women portrayed as quite so helpless. He batted them away like flies!

Women who are in a shelter because they've been abused by their partners? Imagine them not being able to muster the strength to physically fight of a very big and very aggressive man. Hilarious indeed.

MagicMarker

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Women who are in a shelter because they've been abused by their partners? Imagine them not being able to muster the strength to physically fight of a very big and very aggressive man. Hilarious indeed.

Oh don't be so ****ing precious. I'm talking about him sending them flying across the room with a backhand that wouldn't burst a soap bubble.

Dan_Solo

MagicMarker wrote: »

Oh don't be so ****ing precious. I'm talking about him sending them flying across the room with a backhand that wouldn't burst a soap bubble.

When he got walloped with a vase over the head I found myself mentally shouting the same thing I do every last time a woman thumps an attacker on the TV... HIT HIM AGAIN. AND AGAIN. AND AGAIN. UNTIL HE STAYS DOWN.
They never do!
Seriously though, they looked like children fighting against him.

ivytwine

Dan_Solo wrote: »

When he got walloped with a vase over the head I found myself mentally shouting the same thing I do every last time a woman thumps an attacker on the TV... HIT HIM AGAIN. AND AGAIN. AND AGAIN. UNTIL HE STAYS DOWN.
They never do!
Seriously though, they looked like children fighting against him.

Lol me too Dan, we clearly have rage issues!

I found that scene really unbelievable tbh. Thankfully I don't know anything about women's shelters, but I would presume they have some heavy-duty security to prevent someone like Jimmy just walking in. I agree with magic marker too, it was like something out of a cartoon- one man against ten plus women and they can't overpower him? Yeah right.

I'd have loved if Katie, realising that Spectre had no interest in her, turned up at the woods and bumped him off. She's definitely psycho enough.

BettePorter

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote:

I already explained why he told Stella everything.

Are u a writer on the show? cause you seem to be trying to 'tell' people what it was or wasn't and not allow them to make up their own minds.

You enjoyed the ending! good for you! I didn't! I thought it was 'amber'esque in loose ends and arcs! I stuck with it for 2 series and felt I deserved more than..... 'yeah he just admitted to it and was killed by some subplot guy'.

I wanted at least something that justified a second series! As it was it could have been sown up two episodes ago when they knew it was him.

I wanted him to take Stella hostage, for Katie to have been found with rose at the end, keeping her alive to pls spector even though he'd thought shed be long dead. I wanted his wife to kill him. I wanted, as someone else said for Stella to come across the pathologists body. I wanted to discover rose had escaped and kidnapped his wife or his sister or his daughter! anything!!!!! anything other than ..... oh he did it ....... which we always knew...... and was caught! Bye now

Stella coming across E.T.s spaceship in the forest woulda been a bonus!

as it was her walking through the forest to merely come across a car was hardly edge of the seat stuff!

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

BettePorter wrote: »

Are u a writer on the show? cause you seem to be trying to 'tell' people what it was or wasn't and not allow them to make up their own minds.

You enjoyed the ending! good for you! I didn't! I thought it was 'amber'esque in loose ends and arcs! I stuck with it for 2 series and felt I deserved more than..... 'yeah he just admitted to it and was killed by some subplot guy'.

I'm only responding to people that don't seem to be able to grasp the simplest of points on the show.

As I've said I have no problem with people not liking the show or reading it their own way but there are a number of posters on here that have been repeating themselves over and over for the past 6 weeks contributing nothing to the conversation but stupid questions and silly complaints.

The reasons you outlined for not enjoying it are valid. You expected something and didn't get it. I have zero problem with that. What I do have a problem with is people who are clearly not paying attention when it's on or have already decided they hate everything before an episode even airs and then feel the need to complain about all the same things they did the week before.

I don't think I've ever told someone their interpretation was wrong, if I did I apologize. I've simply been replying to the questions people seemed to had and engaging in debate with those actually contributing to the thread. I thought that was the point of these threads?

Dan_Solo

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I'm only responding to people that don't seem to be able to grasp the simplest of points on the show.

This is incorrect.
There has been almost no controversy in this thread about the facts of the show itself *. Whether we find it credible, competent or entertaining are separate issues.




* Except two of us have how mistaken the UVF guy for an IRA guy, but we've yet to hear how this makes any difference to anything.

Baggy Trousers

ivytwine wrote: »

I'd have loved if Katie, realising that Spectre had no interest in her, turned up at the woods and bumped him off. She's definitely psycho enough.

Spectre? Where is James Bond when you need him?

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Dan_Solo wrote: »

This is incorrect.
There has been almost no controversy in this thread about the facts of the show itself *. Whether we find it credible, competent or entertaining are separate issues.

There's been plenty of "that doesn't make sense?" "why did that happen?" "what's that about?" posts. A lot of them were easily explained by anyone who was paying attention during the episodes.

I assumed when people were asking questions or saying that things didn't make sense they actually wanted to engage in conversation about the points.

Ann22

I loved the show but wanted just s little more at the end. Going by the expression on Spector's face it looked like he was pleased at Stella's concern for him over her lover's. Surely she should've been more worried about her fellow officer (and bedfellow) than any possible urge to save Spector for long enough to bring him to full justice??? It looked to me that it implied she had feelings for him of some kind. I guess we'll never know.

Meathlass

Meathlass wrote: »

Thanks, you're right. Tom Anderson is his name.

Missus and I kept calling him Merlin!

Amazingfun

What a disappointment season 2 was for me ...very little genuine suspense/thrills (although the brief moments of this via Dornan's excellent/terrifying portrayal of Spector were much appreciated) and far too "sexualized" for my liking (and I usually like that kinda thing lol).
I loved it all: casting/location/original storyline-but the writing this season really sucked. In the end I really didn't care if Rose was alive or dead....just wanted it to come to an end. And that ending was seen a mile-off. Boring!!

Such a pity.

ivytwine

Baggy Trousers wrote: »

Spectre? Where is James Bond when you need him?

*theme music*