Fianna Fáil most popular party, new poll shows

guinnessdrinker

nummnutts wrote: »

I'm getting out of this country, and I'm never coming back.

Didn't Ray D'arcy say this before?

guinnessdrinker

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

EDIT: And I think an article in today's Irish Times really sums up some of the key reasons as to why FF is experiencing a rise in support.

Fianna Fáil makes headway in shaking off image as a toxic political brand

That article doesn't really explain why FF experiencing a rise in support though.

Quote from the article:

“We will do everything in the interest of the country even if it damages our support,” says a senior figure on the party’s general approach.

Yeah right!

Havermeyer

guinnessdrinker wrote: »

Didn't Ray D'arcy say this before?

Last time I checked, I wasn't Ray D'arcy. So..........

:pac:

guinnessdrinker

nummnutts wrote: »

Last time I checked, I wasn't Ray D'arcy. So..........

:pac:

So unlike Ray, you are actually going to leave?

flutered

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Indeed the lure of power often creates strange bedfellows. It would be totally unacceptable IMO for FG to coalesce with FF. FG desperate to keep power and Martin et al desperate to get in power and wreak havoc.

the big prize for f.f. is the easter celebrations come 2016, to be the head honchos as the parade works its way down o connell st, compared to this everything pales into insignifince.

ninty9er

guinnessdrinker wrote: »

Yeah right!

If FF had gone to the electorate in late 2010 instead of early 2011, leaving the country with no budget and no plan, it would have returned a significantly higher number of seats. I think your view is a bit blind up there on that high horse.

guinnessdrinker

ninty9er wrote: »

If FF had gone to the electorate in late 2010 instead of early 2011, leaving the country with no budget and no plan, it would have returned a significantly higher number of seats. I think your view is a bit blind up there on that high horse.

I'm not trying to be smart but I think that is simply delusional. I highly doubt they would have returned significantly higher number of seats if they held the election a few months earlier.

The public feeling for all of 2010 was to get FF out and the sooner the better.

Even prior to 2010 in fact, look at the local election results in 2009, FF lost 84 seats!

Sand

I'm not impressed by the threat of Zombie FF. They are simply the beneficiaries of not being in government - they are currently the least noteworthy of an extremely unpopular group of parties. Of FG, FF, Labour, SF and the various hangers on which party exactly deserves to be popular? Once an election cycle starts, FF will suffer at the daily reminders that they (and the Greens - who are thankfully and deservedly extinct) are responsible for all the suffering of the Irish taxpayer.

But for all the condemnation of the Irish public for still giving FF a strong vote - sorry, but what exactly have FG and Labour done to differentiate themselves from a FF government? Has the standard of public discourse increased? No. Has government policy been made in a more transparent manner? No. Has corruption in office decreased? No. Has the government acted in anyway to differentiate itself from the previous Greena Fail government? No.

Why then should the Irish public be condemned for not differentiating between FF, FG and SF in its support? Labour have acted exactly as I expected in government and FG have followed the "Up Mayo!" line championed by Enda Kenny and his supporters. Can any FG supporter explain why he/she thinks his/her party *deserves* more support than FF? I ask FG followers, only because Labour were never more than the political wing of the trade union movement.

Personally, the next election out I'll be giving my first vote to an independent candidate and when I run out of independent candidates to give transfers to, only then will I give a transfer to a party candidate. Its still a toss up if SF or FF will be bottom of the list. Thankfully the Greens will not appear.

FF surprised me back in the thick of it that they didn't tell the lads in Europe to go hell, I thought they'd be the right lads to wait it out and threaten to bring down the € by not playing ball, them being corrupt sheisters it seemed they were the right lads to have in charge at the time, when it came to it they didn't have the balls/smarts to even attempt it, blanket bank guarantee, tut tut.

Despite that they seem to be regaining some support, unreal, people must be actually falling for Micheal Martin's "I was away in Mars during the boom etc etc " pretense he puts on

ednwireland

MrScootch wrote: »

There's no-one I can vote for.

If FF get back in I'm leaving. FG seem to be finishing the job of ruining the country that FF started, with enthusiasm. I'm not about to vote SF. Labour put me to sleep. The Greens made themselves a joke.

The only thing I can do is vote for a local independent without the power to effect change.

No political party reflects my views.

+1 exactly the same (although i felt the same at the last GE)

bmaxi

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Very surprised by the latest opinion poll out today, no significant bounce in support for the government following the promissory note deal.

What deal was this? As I read it we woke up one morning not owing €30bn and the next, owing €30bn and with another 800 plus added to the unemployment register. Who got the deal? Not us.

Uncle Ben

The Browser wrote: »

The coalition should call a snap election on the back of the deal with the ECB. They'd surely get back in and thereby have seven years in office.

The coalition promised not another red cent. That is the problem with this Govt. They promised so much when all the electorate wanted was truth and equity. There really is no difference between FG/FF and the LP when it comes to cronyism, and lies. Sad but true.

Silvio.Dante

The 'good people' in FF who Big Phil asked to lend FG their votes are coming home...:)

cast_iron

RoverJames wrote: »

FF surprised me back in the thick of it that they didn't tell the lads in Europe to go hell,

The consequences of that could well have been something similar to what happened in Greece. Yes, Greece, where you go to collect your medication in the pharmacy and they tell you you can't have it because the government is will not pay it as they are broke. That is the reality of what has gone on there. SF don't tell you that! I don't think FF (or FG) supporters want that, hence they are happy to elect a government that won't rock the boat too much. Broadly speaking, the electorate got what they wanted in the last election.

bmaxi wrote: »

What deal was this? As I read it we woke up one morning not owing €30bn and the next, owing €30bn and with another 800 plus added to the unemployment register. Who got the deal? Not us.

If you think a guarantee isn't a guarantee, then yes, you could view it like that.

Uncle Ben wrote: »

The coalition promised not another red cent. That is the problem with this Govt. They promised so much when all the electorate wanted was truth and equity. There really is no difference between FG/FF and the LP when it comes to cronyism, and lies. Sad but true.

For the record, they did not promise another "red" cent. Truly amazing how mud seems to stick. But you are broadly right, the current govt made a hatful of promises they knew they couldn't keep. I'm not quite sure why, as they were going to get in easily anyway. Perhaps political greed and seats for their own candidates.

To be fair to FF, at least in the last general election campaign, they made no such false promises. Bad and all as the mistakes they made in office, they didn't tell bare faced lies that were soon to be found out to be just that.

Perhaps that goes some way to explain the credibility they seem to be getting in the current polls.

Coillte_Bhoy

Sand wrote: »

I'm not impressed by the threat of Zombie FF. They are simply the beneficiaries of not being in government - they are currently the least noteworthy of an extremely unpopular group of parties. Of FG, FF, Labour, SF and the various hangers on which party exactly deserves to be popular? Once an election cycle starts, FF will suffer at the daily reminders that they (and the Greens - who are thankfully and deservedly extinct) are responsible for all the suffering of the Irish taxpayer.

But for all the condemnation of the Irish public for still giving FF a strong vote - sorry, but what exactly have FG and Labour done to differentiate themselves from a FF government? Has the standard of public discourse increased? No. Has government policy been made in a more transparent manner? No. Has corruption in office decreased? No. Has the government acted in anyway to differentiate itself from the previous Greena Fail government? No.

Why then should the Irish public be condemned for not differentiating between FF, FG and SF in its support? Labour have acted exactly as I expected in government and FG have followed the "Up Mayo!" line championed by Enda Kenny and his supporters. Can any FG supporter explain why he/she thinks his/her party *deserves* more support than FF? I ask FG followers, only because Labour were never more than the political wing of the trade union movement.

Personally, the next election out I'll be giving my first vote to an independent candidate and when I run out of independent candidates to give transfers to, only then will I give a transfer to a party candidate. Its still a toss up if SF or FF will be bottom of the list. Thankfully the Greens will not appear.

yeah cos the Greens really dominated that Govt that brought us to where we are:rolleyes:

Coillte_Bhoy

Uncle Ben wrote: »

The coalition promised not another red cent. That is the problem with this Govt. They promised so much when all the electorate wanted was truth and equity. There really is no difference between FG/FF and the LP when it comes to cronyism, and lies. Sad but true.

wrong, unless you want to link us to it???

bmaxi

cast_iron wrote: »

If you think a guarantee isn't a guarantee, then yes, you could view it like that.

/QUOTE]

The guarantee is a discussion for another day. IMO it was a case of inept politicians being (not necessarily unwillingly) outmanoeuvred by bankers.
To call what happened last week a "deal" is just adding insult to injury. It's akin to a surgeon telling a patient he can arrange a good price on a wheelchair after negligently removing both legs.

Worztron

Collective thinking is usually short-lived. We're fickle, stupid beings with poor memories and a great gift for self-destruction.” – Suzanne Collins, Mockingjay

RichieO

IMHO I think the poll was carried out in an asylum somewhere in Siberia...

cast_iron

cast_iron wrote: »

The consequences of that could well have been something similar to what happened in Greece. Yes, Greece, where you go to collect your medication in the pharmacy and they tell you you can't have it because the government is will not pay it as they are broke. That is the reality of what has gone on there. SF don't tell you that! I don't think FF (or FG) supporters want that, hence they are happy to elect a government that won't rock the boat too much. Broadly speaking, the electorate got what they wanted in the last election.


:.......

To be fair to FF, at least in the last general election campaign, they made no such false promises. Bad and all as the mistakes they made in office, they didn't tell bare faced lies that were soon to be found out to be just that.

Perhaps that goes some way to explain the credibility they seem to be getting in the current polls.

I was speaking in the context of the blanket bank guarantee, I'd rank Sinn Fein as worse than ff, my opinions are my own not sinn fein inspired.

Note, you said the consequences could bla bla, that's your opinion, no doubt FF inspired

I think things are going quite well under FG, there are some who claim FF would have done better, I very much doubt it and hope they won't get an opportunity anytime soon.

bmaxi

Worztron wrote: »

Collective thinking is usually short-lived. We're fickle, stupid beings with poor memories and a great gift for self-destruction.” – Suzanne Collins, Mockingjay

Probably an accurate sentiment but to be fair to the Irish electorate, for the last fifty years we've had a choice between Tweedledum and Tweedledee. In 2011 the electorate gave the worst drubbing in living memory to an incumbent government and what was the result? Instead of pompous, arrogant pricks like Cowen, Coughlan and Ahern we got their clones in Hogan, Shatter and Varadkar.
In truth, there has been no government in Ireland for more than fifty years which has had the interests of Joe Public at heart when making policy. The revelation the other day, that the CEO of Greencore was a brother of Agriculture minister Simon Coveney seemed to come as a surprise to many; why, I don't know, as these are the type of people that governments have been in hock to for years, these are the people whose interests frame legislation, just as the bankers' interests drove the bank guarantee.

The Waltzing Consumer

bmaxi wrote: »

In truth, there has been no government in Ireland for more than fifty years which has had the interests of Joe Public at heart when making policy.

How do you measure that?

Mr.Micro

It might be interesting as to the reasons for a big swing to FF. It cannot be because FF have done anything or because Martin is charismatic. I wonder if its a protest at the ongoing tax burden that is being rolled out, water meters, household charges, septic tank charges and whatever else? The deluded who may think that FF will reverse all these charges and bring us back to the old days, prior to 2008 and where the crooks run the country and votes are bought with money we never had. FF will be eyeing up that €1 billion that we may have in the kitty to pledge more money for those who want the country ruined again when they vote FF. Thankfully its only a poll at the minute and we can all go about our business for the moment knowing that its just a nightmare.

Uncle Ben

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

wrong, unless you want to link us to it???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LTCT7QIeP8

Then Gilmore mentioned something about Labours Way or Frankfurts way,
Then Kenny said he'd keep Roscommon Hospital open.
Then Reilly said he'd keep Roscommon Hospital open.
Then Gilmore said he'd keep Roscommon Hospital open.
Then Quinn said 'No student fees'.
Then Labour said 'Child Benefit-Red Line issue.
Then they all said they'd cap advisors pay.
Then they said we'd have clean, honest politics.

Then Rabbitte said: 'You tend to say that in elections.'

Plenty of links online if you care to look.

bmaxi

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

How do you measure that?

Well I measure it in terms of the levels of corruption in politics since 1957, when the electorate first made the unfortunate decision to elect one CJ Haughey to Dáil Eireann. Morality and ethics in politics has been on a downward spiral ever since, culminating in the shameless greed and extravagance of the Ahern clique, which brought us to the crisis in which we now find ourselves. I doubt standards can sink any lower but unfortunately the bar is set so low now that even those barely scraping over it are still rotten to the core.

Mr.Micro

bmaxi wrote: »

Well I measure it in terms of the levels of corruption in politics since 1957, when the electorate first made the unfortunate decision to elect one CJ Haughey to Dáil Eireann. Morality and ethics in politics has been on a downward spiral ever since, culminating in the shameless greed and extravagance of the Ahern clique, which brought us to the crisis in which we now find ourselves. I doubt standards can sink any lower but unfortunately the bar is set so low now that even those barely scraping over it are still rotten to the core.

Its possible that the Irish voter seems to regard this type of person with high regard. After this latest poll, all we need is the return of Bertie Ahern back into the FF party and the other heroes of FF.

Worztron

Fianna FAIL borked Ireland for generations to come and now many people want to run back to them. :mad:

MrScootch

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

yeah cos the Greens really dominated that Govt that brought us to where we are:rolleyes:

They were complicit and culpable. If I recall correctly they held the balance of power and could have ended the government before the country was sold out and all the treason occurred.

Sand wrote: »

I'm not impressed by the threat of Zombie FF.

Oh I really like this label. This really needs to catch on!

bmaxi

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Its possible that the Irish voter seems to regard this type of person with high regard. After this latest poll, all we need is the return of Bertie Ahern back into the FF party and the other heroes of FF.

Bertie may have gone but his legacy lives on. By my reckoning, at least 50% of current FF TDs held ministerial office at some level in the last administration, yet none of them knew what was going on. Although listening to some of them, that's not entirely unbelievable.

cast_iron

RoverJames wrote: »

I was speaking in the context of the blanket bank guarantee, I'd rank Sinn Fein as worse than ff, my opinions are my own not sinn fein inspired.

I wasn't trying to attribute you to SF, but presented their position as the alternative. The blanket guarantee was basically us telling Europe to go jump, no one was too happy with us. Where we didn't tell the EU to go jump was when we were forced to extend said guarantee to prevent contagion of collapsed banks. If that contagion did happen, I'm pretty sure things would now be in a worse state EU wide.

Note, you said the consequences could bla bla, that's your opinion, no doubt FF inspired

Yes, of course it is my opinion. I based it on looking at the experiences of other countries like Greece and Iceland. They really had a nasty adjustment, which we have not experienced. It's more a FF/FG (ie. mainstream) political view, as opposed to FF only.

I think things are going quite well under FG, there are some who claim FF would have done better, I very much doubt it and hope they won't get an opportunity anytime soon.

Things are going fairly okay. I think FF were there too long, and it is healthy for democracy if a govt changes more often than 12 years. Their main policies are broadly the same anyway.

MrScootch

cast_iron wrote: »

Yes, of course it is my opinion. I based it on looking at the experiences of other countries like Greece and Iceland. They really had a nasty adjustment, which we have not experienced. It's more a FF/FG (ie. mainstream) political view, as opposed to FF only.

Things are going fairly okay.

Iceland did and are doing a hell of a lot better than us. Iceland put corrupt bankers in jail, made the risk-takers live with their gambles. It's a long while since they were in recession and their unemployment is down to 6%. They had a situation and they handled it, and did so without breaking capitalism and the principle of a free market economy.

You seriously call the recent levels of unemployment, emigration, public service cutbacks, tax increases and debt we will live with for generations "Things going fairly okay."?!?!?!

Worztron

Hunter Thompson: "In a democracy, people usually get the kind of government they deserve, and they deserve what they get." – 1970

jmayo

ninty9er wrote: »

If FF had gone to the electorate in late 2010 instead of early 2011, leaving the country with no budget and no plan, it would have returned a significantly higher number of seats. I think your view is a bit blind up there on that high horse.

Ahh ninty99er you are still alive.

I love the way you are basically hinting we should be grateful to YOUR party because they brought in a budget and a plan before they left office.

But isn't the truth that they had to leave office, because you had lost YOUR coalition partner and the party was in revolt where the Taoiseach was no longer YOUR leader ?

Good enough to lead Ireland, but obviously not good enough to lead ff ehh ?

Oh and speaking of the budget and the plan...
Wasn't that dictated basically by the Troika who YOUR party had effectively handed over our soverignty to, because YOUR party had driven the country's economic and indigenous banking sectors onto the rocks ?

You and your bunch trying to insinuate you took a hit at the polls to help save the country is about as much bollox as the captain of the Costa Concordia claiming he jumped ship so to lead the rescue. :rolleyes:
Except in this case ff didn't jump ship, but hung on in there doing shag all, yet still attempting to keep the perks and the cushy jobs.

Actually there are quiet a few parallels between the way that cruise ship was steered and the way the Irish economy was steered. :mad:

Actually one could say captain bertie jumped ship and left first mate clowen head supposedly in charge.

gandalf

Uncle Ben wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LTCT7QIeP8

Then Gilmore mentioned something about Labours Way or Frankfurts way,
Then Kenny said he'd keep Roscommon Hospital open.
Then Reilly said he'd keep Roscommon Hospital open.
Then Gilmore said he'd keep Roscommon Hospital open.
Then Quinn said 'No student fees'.
Then Labour said 'Child Benefit-Red Line issue.
Then they all said they'd cap advisors pay.
Then they said we'd have clean, honest politics.

Then Rabbitte said: 'You tend to say that in elections.'

Plenty of links online if you care to look.

Then they ended up in Government together. Coalitions force compromise and unfortunately in this case it has delayed dealing with the issues at hand which is the cost of running this country. I voted for FG to get them in and sort out the PS costs. Because Labour went in with them they could not be as decisive as they needed to be.

The taxes that they are implementing are there because 14 years of FF led governments squandered whatever wealth we had made and a certain Mr Michael Martin was right beside Bertie Aherns side agreeing with all the decisions that lead the country over the cliff face and put us at the mercy of the IMF and ECB. It was a FF Minister from a FF led Government that signed the document that tied us to the bank debt in the first place. At least this current crowd have eased the burden by pushing the debt out into the future.

If FF make any headways in the next elections I will be disgusted at the people in this country. It shows that they are naive and immature in the way we exercise our right to vote. Then again it does explain how the Healy-Raes keep getting voted in.

cast_iron

MrScootch wrote: »

Iceland did and are doing a hell of a lot better than us. Iceland put corrupt bankers in jail, made the risk-takers live with their gambles. It's a long while since they were in recession and their unemployment is down to 6%. They had a situation and they handled it, and did so without breaking capitalism and the principle of a free market economy.

They also had their own currency which they could devalue which aided their recovery greatly. And if we shafted our main trading partners (uk and Europe) like they did, it would have had a much bigger effect on our economy. My point in mentioning Iceland was the effect of their chosen path at the time. 15% interest rates for example! Could you imagine that here, with the mortgage problems we have at current interest rates? Inflation at 14% back then too. If anything, our euro here now buys you more than it did 5 years ago.

You seriously call the recent levels of unemployment, emigration, public service cutbacks, tax increases and debt we will live with for generations "Things going fairly okay."?!?!?!

No one said that. Relative to where the position we were in, the current govt hasn't done terribly badly in managing the crisis.

MrScootch

cast_iron wrote: »

They also had their own currency which they could devalue which aided their recovery greatly. And if we shafted our main trading partners (uk and Europe) like they did, it would have had a much bigger effect on our economy. My point in mentioning Iceland was the effect of their chosen path at the time. 15% interest rates for example! Could you imagine that here, with the mortgage problems we have at current interest rates? Inflation at 14% back then too. If anything, our euro here now buys you more than it did 5 years ago.

No one said that. Relative to where the position we were in, the current govt hasn't done terribly badly in managing the crisis.

I think you're calling black, white. They are doing fine. We are not. What does that tell you, that we chose the right path!? Yes they had a short, sharp shock but they allowed the market to correct. Maybe we should have left the Euro, maybe the Euro should have been allowed to devalue. Let's not forget that they protected their mortgage holders and put the populace first.

Steady-handed conservative economic policy put them on the path to recovery and should have been a model for other nations.
Where has our reactionary, radical market intervention got us or the Eurozone? Intervention & austerity is hardly a runaway success story is it?

They didn't shaft anyone - some people put some money in investments with unfeasibly high returns and didn't ask too many questions. Some bad businesses failed, some speculators lost some money. That's life, that's business - swallow the bitter bill, learn your lessons and start over again. They took the risk, they paid their price.

Now where is the line for us, what's 'too big to fail'? What private risk is big enough or important enough, or well connected enough to qualify for the safety net of a tax-payer bail-out?
Suppose we privatise water to get it off the state's books so that the government can say: 'Look! Now we don't have to pay for that we don't have to raise taxes! Yay!'
(Of course you now have to pay your taxes, plus pay the cost of water, plus pay for a profit margin for the water company. Any claims of 'competition meaning a better deal for the consumer' are a fallacy as due to the barriers to entry for such a business there can only ever be at best an oligopoly.)
Now suppose the water company gets in trouble, does it go out of business?
'Oh no, we can't allow that to happen, the water company is too big to fail. The taxpayer will have to bail it out because we need water.'

This is the mess that FF left us with.

FG have done nothing but continue directly ahead down the same path.
They haven't provided any leadership, they're just a bunch of characterless administrators.

sean200

MrScootch wrote: »

I think you're calling black, white. They are doing fine. We are not. What does that tell you, that we chose the right path!? Yes they had a short, sharp shock but they allowed the market to correct. Maybe we should have left the Euro, maybe the Euro should have been allowed to devalue. Let's not forget that they protected their mortgage holders and put the populace first.

Steady-handed conservative economic policy put them on the path to recovery and should have been a model for other nations.
Where has our reactionary, radical market intervention got us or the Eurozone? Intervention & austerity is hardly a runaway success story is it?

They didn't shaft anyone - some people put some money in investments with unfeasibly high returns and didn't ask too many questions. Some bad businesses failed, some speculators lost some money. That's life, that's business - swallow the bitter bill, learn your lessons and start over again. They took the risk, they paid their price.

Now where is the line for us, what's 'too big to fail'? What private risk is big enough or important enough, or well connected enough to qualify for the safety net of a tax-payer bail-out?
Suppose we privatise water to get it off the state's books so that the government can say: 'Look! Now we don't have to pay for that we don't have to raise taxes! Yay!'
(Of course you now have to pay your taxes, plus pay the cost of water, plus pay for a profit margin for the water company. Any claims of 'competition meaning a better deal for the consumer' are a fallacy as due to the barriers to entry for such a business there can only ever be at best an oligopoly.)
Now suppose the water company gets in trouble, does it go out of business?
'Oh no, we can't allow that to happen, the water company is too big to fail. The taxpayer will have to bail it out because we need water.'

This is the mess that FF left us with.

FG have done nothing but continue directly ahead down the same path.
They haven't provided any leadership, they're just a bunch of characterless administrators.

correct and now they have lost there mandate so it is time to WIPE THEM OUT

jmayo

MrScootch wrote: »

I think you're calling black, white. They are doing fine. We are not. What does that tell you, that we chose the right path!? Yes they had a short, sharp shock but they allowed the market to correct. Maybe we should have left the Euro, maybe the Euro should have been allowed to devalue.

I would love to have seen where our punt would have floated if we left the euro at the time when we had either hung ourselves with the banks as anchors or decided to let all our indigenous banks go bust.
Wouldn't be the best time to float now would it ?

We aren't comparable to Iceland, we have a few major differences like being part of the EU, the Eurozone and fact we are so heavily reliant on FDI.

Saying that we should have done somethings like Iceland such as chased the bast***s from our parliament, let the high flying ejeits that dragged the country swing and brought in someone like Eva Joly to get to the bottom of the mess quickly and thoroughly rather than our own connected types.

MrScootch wrote: »

Let's not forget that they protected their mortgage holders and put the populace first.
...

So do you see the protection of mortgage holders to be one of the most important issues ?

BTW what do you mean the protection of mortgage holders ?

Isn't a moratorium on the repossession of property linked to defaulted mortgages not enough for you ?
Or perhaps you think a little writeoff was in order ? :rolleyes:

PS mortgage holders <> populace

MrScootch

jmayo wrote: »

I would love to have seen where our punt would have floated if we left the euro at the time when we had either hung ourselves with the banks as anchors or decided to let all our indigenous banks go bust.
Wouldn't be the best time to float now would it ?

We aren't comparable to Iceland, we have a few major differences like being part of the EU, the Eurozone and fact we are so heavily reliant on FDI.

Saying that we should have done somethings like Iceland such as chased the bast***s from our parliament, let the high flying ejeits that dragged the country swing and brought in someone like Eva Joly to get to the bottom of the mess quickly and thoroughly rather than our own connected types.



So do you see the protection of mortgage holders to be one of the most important issues ?

BTW what do you mean the protection of mortgage holders ?

Isn't a moratorium on the repossession of property linked to defaulted mortgages not enough for you ?
Or perhaps you think a little writeoff was in order ? :rolleyes:

PS mortgage holders <> populace

You think Iceland isn't dependent on FDI? It's an island nation with a small population. Anyway our over-reliance on FDI is as a result of decades of FF policy, a high risk 'all our eggs in one basket' approach that FG continue with enthusiasm rather than working to promote stability through indigenous industry and entrepreneurship. What I mean is it's great, headline grabbing stuff for a town to gain 6000 jobs when a big bio-tech firm swoops in, but a few years down the line if they decide to move their operation somewhere cheaper and they are nearly the towns only employer, then it's town wiped out.

My preference would have been to stay in the Euro, face reality and yes, let the banks go bust. Nationalise the whole lot if need be, start new companies to run them. At least in the UK the exchequer became shareholder, had a chance of a return on their investment.

I was just responding to the previous point re mortgage problems and interest rates. But yes, they introduced policies to ease the burden on mortgage-holders and avoid repossession of homes for the sake of social stability. There were partial write-downs for home-owners badly effected.
The temporary moratorium seems like a bit of a sticking plaster approach.

Is a partial write-off such a crazy notion? After all the banks were pretty fundamental in fuelling the property bubble as part of the Triad of Shame (banks, FF, property developers).

PS yeah but not everyone has a mortgage.

Sand

gandalf wrote: »

Then they ended up in Government together. Coalitions force compromise and unfortunately in this case it has delayed dealing with the issues at hand which is the cost of running this country. I voted for FG to get them in and sort out the PS costs. Because Labour went in with them they could not be as decisive as they needed to be.

The taxes that they are implementing are there because 14 years of FF led governments squandered whatever wealth we had made and a certain Mr Michael Martin was right beside Bertie Aherns side agreeing with all the decisions that lead the country over the cliff face and put us at the mercy of the IMF and ECB. It was a FF Minister from a FF led Government that signed the document that tied us to the bank debt in the first place. At least this current crowd have eased the burden by pushing the debt out into the future.

If FF make any headways in the next elections I will be disgusted at the people in this country. It shows that they are naive and immature in the way we exercise our right to vote. Then again it does explain how the Healy-Raes keep getting voted in.

Essentially though, that means FG and Labours primary appeal would remain that they are "not Fianna Fail". I think that claim is not as powerful with the Irish people anymore. They elected "not Fianna Fail" and yet government policies continue much as Fianna Fail set them, and standards in government have if anything declined even further - even watching "Promnight" in the Dail, it appeared most of the government back benchers were drunk given their behaviour. Fianna Fail deserve to be unpopular but I'm still puzzled as to why the people of this country should be blamed for not supporting the supposed alternative. They're not naive and immature - they simply see no effective difference between the parties and that's reflected in their support.

Let say Fianna Fail re-entered power tomorrow: would anyone really be able to tell the difference?

jmayo

MrScootch wrote: »

You think Iceland isn't dependent on FDI? It's an island nation with a small population.

For a start they don't have to worry about energy imports as much as us.
I don't know enough about Iceland and how dependent on FDI it is, but I would assume it isn't as bad as us ?

MrScootch wrote: »

My preference would have been to stay in the Euro, face reality and yes, let the banks go bust. Nationalise the whole lot if need be, start new companies to run them. At least in the UK the exchequer became shareholder, had a chance of a return on their investment.

I think some of the banks had to be saved, but nationalising Anglo and INBS was just nationalising sh**holes for want of a better word.

MrScootch wrote: »

I was just responding to the previous point re mortgage problems and interest rates. But yes, they introduced policies to ease the burden on mortgage-holders and avoid repossession of homes for the sake of social stability.

Are you kidding ?
We have one of the lowest rates of repossessions in the world, even before the moratorium.
It is a fooking joke that some who haven't paid their mortgage in years are sitting in properties that other people, including other mortgage payers, are in effect paying for.

MrScootch wrote: »

There were partial write-downs for home-owners badly effected.
The temporary moratorium seems like a bit of a sticking plaster approach.

Is a partial write-off such a crazy notion?

Yes it is a fooking crazy notion if you are talking about the defaulter getting to keep the property and expect others, especially those who didn't blow their wad during the bubble, to ultimately pay for it. :mad:

MrScootch wrote: »

After all the banks were pretty fundamental in fuelling the property bubble as part of the Triad of Shame (banks, FF, property developers).

Ah yes lets blame someone else and shure haven't everyone else gotten bailouts so why stop now. :mad:

So what about poor smucks who actually didn't fuel the bubble, like the purchasers and remortgagers who bought the overpriced crud, are they supposed to pony up for everyone ?

Looks like it in your ideal world, ehh.

cast_iron

MrScootch wrote: »

I think you're calling black, white. They are doing fine. We are not.

The point was made that FG are doing "okay" from the position they were left. I agreed. Neither myself nor Rover James said the current situation/unemployment etc was okay.

What does that tell you, that we chose the right path!? Yes they had a short, sharp shock but they allowed the market to correct. Maybe we should have left the Euro, maybe the Euro should have been allowed to devalue.

It tells me very little. If we left the Euro, it could well have collapsed. Devaluing wouldn't really have been an issue then. I don't think we would have had a "short, sharp shock" in such a situation. I think the entire Eurozone would have been plunged into a prolonged crisis, with people's money/savings often become worthless overnight. While the path we have taken has not been ideal, our Euro goes further and those who have jobs remain fairly well off.

Intervention & austerity is hardly a runaway success story is it?

No, but neither was the idea to spend vast amount of money we didn't have. Without some form of austerity, this policy that got us into the current mess would be continued. As to the result of that...I doubt it would have ended overly well either. However, we will never know.

For the record, I'm not debating the rights or wrongs of which path was the right one. This thread is about FF and their showings in the polls.

Like it or lump it, the Irish public elected a party that decided not to throw the Euro into chaos (FF) and then elected another party that promised the same thing (FG). Whether that course was best for us or not is an argument for another thread. Either way, there wasn't the appetite by the electorate to have a stab in the dark at the SF route of defaulting on our national obligations.

Freiheit

Met a woman today and she passively asked me what I thought of Enda Kenny's Magdalen speech,(I said 'he's a puppet') but she answered with regardless of how good Enda or Fine gael govern, that 'she's Fianna Fail' , it was as though she was born Fianna Fail, in the same way as being born black or white, indelible,like a race or tribe,that no matter what, she was Fianna Fail, which was very sad but probably typical of a lot of their voters. Nothing they do will change their identity, and what more could they have done, short of starting a war?.

The lack of alternatives is depressing though.

Rightwing

Freiheit wrote: »

Met a woman today and she passively asked me what I thought of Enda Kenny's Magdalen speech,(I said 'he's a puppet') but she answered with regardless of how good Enda or Fine gael govern, that 'she's Fianna Fail' , it was as though she was born Fianna Fail, in the same way as being born black or white, indelible,like a race or tribe,that no matter what, she was Fianna Fail, which was very sad but probably typical of a lot of their voters. Nothing they do will change their identity, and what more could they have done, short of starting a war?.

The lack of alternatives is depressing though.

There's certainly room for a new party in the country. FF will never again have credibility amongst intelligent people. Labour should never gone into Government as austerity isn't what they are about. FG don't give the impression that they are a caring & fair party.

Bring on Declan Ganley.

Zubeneschamali

Rightwing wrote: »

FF will never again have credibility amongst intelligent people.

That's what we said after the Haughey years, too.

Bring on Declan Ganley.

Yes, we can always use a good laugh.

Godge

MrScootch wrote: »

. Let's not forget that they protected their mortgage holders and put the populace first.


.

Their interest rate reached 18% in 2008 - how was that protecting mortgage holders? Even today, the central bank interest rate in Iceland is 6% compared to the ECB rate of 0.75%. I know which one I prefer as a mortgage holder.

Going beyond that, their central bank used to allow mortgages defined in foreign currency (I think around 30% of mortgagtes at one time were this type). Because of the currency collapes these mortgage-holders have ended up owing more that they originally borrowed despite being up-to-date with their payments.

michael999999

Crooks, liars and thieves.

PopePalpatine

Rightwing wrote: »

There's certainly room for a new party in the country. FF will never again have credibility amongst intelligent people. Labour should never gone into Government as austerity isn't what they are about. FG don't give the impression that they are a caring & fair party.

Bring on Declan Ganley.

This Declan Ganley? The last thing we need is a THIRD Christian right-wing party.

Scofflaw

Freiheit wrote: »

Met a woman today and she passively asked me what I thought of Enda Kenny's Magdalen speech,(I said 'he's a puppet') but she answered with regardless of how good Enda or Fine gael govern, that 'she's Fianna Fail' , it was as though she was born Fianna Fail, in the same way as being born black or white, indelible,like a race or tribe,that no matter what, she was Fianna Fail, which was very sad but probably typical of a lot of their voters. Nothing they do will change their identity, and what more could they have done, short of starting a war?.

That's basically it - Fianna Fáil's performance at the ballot box fundamentally depends on whether their voters decide to vote for them or not. Whether they do or don't actually vote for FF in any given election, those voters remain FF voters.

Freiheit wrote: »

The lack of alternatives is depressing though.

Every alternative party in Irish politics necessarily starts small. If it's not successful, it remains on the fringes as an irrelevance. If it's successful, at some point it is offered the chance at a coalition, and it's then eradicated.

Rinse and repeat, grumbling in between about the lack of alternatives.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Tabnabs

MrScootch wrote: »

Iceland did and are doing a hell of a lot better than us. Iceland put corrupt bankers in jail, made the risk-takers live with their gambles. It's a long while since they were in recession and their unemployment is down to 6%. They had a situation and they handled it, and did so without breaking capitalism and the principle of a free market economy.

I think it's time to knock that idea on the head.

To quote the head of the Confederation of Icelandic Employers: "Recovery? We're on the road to nowhere."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/02/21/us-iceland-economy-idUSBRE91K0JN20130221