Best harness for a dog who pulls?

SillyMangoX

They cause no injury..really?

illicit007

SillyMangoX wrote: »

They cause no injury..really?

Maybe in the wrong hands, I've never seen anything like that before. Looks like someone did that to that dog on purpose or something. What's the story behind that photo? That's bloody awful.

illicit007

SillyMangoX wrote: »

They cause no injury..really?

They cause no injury the way I use them or the way they're intended to be used. The I've never seen a dog injured by one first hand or either have I seem one injured by one second hand via people I know or trainers I know who use them. Of course I'm sure like most things, in the wrong hands they could be dangerous. I believe that photo was the work of some sick individual who purposely inflicted those injuries. Not an accident caused by a well intentioned owner. Any time I've put one on a dog before they never pull hard enough on the collar to get close to injuring themselves . Anytime I've shown a dog owner how quickly a prong collar stops their dog pulling,ie immediately, they're amazed at the instantaneous transformation of their once hard pulling dog. I don't believe the collars are cruel. I wouldn't use them if they're cruel. Almost anything can be cruel if used in the wrong hands by the wrong mind.

DBB

You haven't really answered some of my questions. Or at least, I'm still not really understanding why use a prong collar.
Now, I will qualify my questions by clarifying that the prongs on a prong collar are nothing like fingers. They are spikes of steel, maybe 2mm in diameter on the prong collar I have here. Also, the prongs go all the way around the neck, not just into the front of it. So, can we agree that sticking your fingers into the front of your neck is not the same thing as having a ring of steel 2mm prongs all the way around your neck?

The way it seems to be, for me anyway, is that they work by negative reinforcement: the dog learns that if he pulls, it is uncomfortable, and in order to avoid the discomfort, he stops pulling.
I will, I have to say, fundamentally disagree with you that it doesn't hurt when you put a prong collar around your own neck. I only put one around my neck the other day. It was distinctly uncomfortable, and that was without tightening it. I have only taken them off dogs, never put them on, but one trainer I know put one around a dog's neck and it pissed itself immediately.

It is widely recognised that if a trainer has to use a piece of gear that utilises negative reinforcement, that they make damn sure they seriously, seriously limit the aversive effects which cause the dog to avoid the unpleasant sensation. So, gear like the front-connection harness is considered an acceptable negative reinforcer, because the level of aversion it causes is very mild. But I can't find one single dog training association, and I mean reputable dog training associations whose members have recognised dog training qualifications, that consider the prong collar to cause an acceptably small level of aversion. Quite the opposite. They all advise against their use. So do the reputable dog behaviour associations. They, along with choke chains, are considered to cause too many behavioural problems, as well as some pretty serious health problems.


I still don;t understand why are they okay to use as for training, but not okay to use for everyday? Surely, if something is okay to use to train a dog, it should be okay to use on the dog every day, for the rest of his life? So, why stop using it? I'm not really interested in them looking horrible or anything, I'm just curious to know the rational behind ditching them once the dog stops pulling?

An additional question: what trainers do you know who use them? Can you tell me what sort of qualifications they themselves have?

Edited to add: I am always worried about gear that can cause harm in the wrong hands. To my mind, if a piece of gear is really ethical, and truly not cruel, then even in the wrong hands it can do minimal damage. A very quick google has revealed to me a lot of pics of dogs with horrible injuries to the their necks from them.

bluecherry74

Here's a photo of Henry with the Perfect Fit Harness (Jess is wearing one too but it doesn't have the front D ring because she's a princess on the lead). You can just about make out the D ring underneath Henry's chest hair. Click the photo to see a much bigger image.


Jess & Henry at Fogher Cliffs, Valentia Island by bluecherry74, on Flickr

I know some of you have been following my thread about the Dogmatic, well I've been using it since just before Christmas and it's been working brilliantly - Hen is so much calmer on our walks now. Last night I decided to chance using the front attach harness for the first time since I got the Dogmatic, just to see how he got on... and he was FANTASTIC! I wouldn't quite call it loose lead walking, but he barely put any pressure on the lead, just trotted along at the pace I set. I doubt he's "cured" and I may need to revert back to the Dogmatic occasionally, but I'm beyond happy with his progress.

nemo32

bluecherry74 wrote: »

Here's a photo of Henry with the Perfect Fit Harness (Jess is wearing one too but it doesn't have the front D ring because she's a princess on the lead). You can just about make out the D ring underneath Henry's chest hair. Click the photo to see a much bigger image.


Jess & Henry at Fogher Cliffs, Valentia Island by bluecherry74, on Flickr

I know some of you have been following my thread about the Dogmatic, well I've been using it since just before Christmas and it's been working brilliantly - Hen is so much calmer on our walks now. Last night I decided to chance using the front attach harness for the first time since I got the Dogmatic, just to see how he got on... and he was FANTASTIC! I wouldn't quite call it loose lead walking, but he barely put any pressure on the lead, just trotted along at the pace I set. I doubt he's "cured" and I may need to revert back to the Dogmatic occasionally, but I'm beyond happy with his progress.

They look great bluecherry. Great to hear you success with the Dogmatic because I have just ordered one for my guy. I hoping this is the answer to all my prays, basically if I can get out and walk my guy morning, lunch and dinner I am hoping it will help with this barking, separation anxiety etc. At the moment only my OH can walk him which is once a day

boomerang

Beautiful, happy dogs, what a credit to you!

illicit007

DBB wrote: »

I still don;t understand why are they okay to use as for training, but not okay to use for everyday? Surely, if something is okay to use to train a dog, it should be okay to use on the dog every day, for the rest of his life? So, why stop using it? I'm not really interested in them looking horrible or anything, I'm just curious to know the rational behind ditching them once the dog stops pulling?

Hi DBB. I can only speak from personal experience and from what I know obviously. You sound like you know what you're talking about so I'm going to look into the types of collars you've talked about and if you don't mind I'll PM you about this and we can have a discussion as I don't want to hijack this persons thread. I don't need to train my dog on a leash any more but I'm always interested in learning things about training. Perhaps the methods I learn't are outdated and there are better methods know, I don't know. All I know now is that I have a perfectly well behaved happy attentive dog. My main problem is socialising him and training him with other dogs around as there's no dog social clubs where I lives. I can only do that when I drop him to the kennel which he loves. If you give me permission I'll PM about it, I'll answer your questions in more detail and ask you some questions of my own and get your advice etc. I have to start work now so probably it will be tomorrow. Thanks.

DBB

Please, PM away

@Bluecherry,
Your dogs melt my heart

tk123

I have this water proof one for aqua man . It's similar to perfect fit one I think in the way it fits. They do loads of sizes so it was great to finally get a harness that fits him everywhere! Since it's got foam inside it doesn't lose it's shape/sag/hang down once he's had a swim and no harness dripping wet when we get home or hogging space on the radiators. We do t-touch groundwork exercises for his legs so it's prefect with the front and back attachments.

hpsheba

At the moment I love the freedom harness but I will always be willing to try a new front connection harness so will suss out the perfect fit one as well. I used the Sensation/Sensible harness for a few years and loved that one as well but went with the freedom harness for a few reasons, the main one being the underbelly strap is velvet lined so worked better on short coated dogs, also it comes with a double connection leash so more control for those of us with dodgy backs who walk multiple dogs/ Other than that any front fastening harness would get my vote.

On Prong collars I can only echo what DBB says . Not a good choice for many many reasons

bluecherry74

DBB wrote: »

@Bluecherry,
Your dogs melt my heart

Aww, thanks. Makes a change from them melting my head!

kassie

OP - i can 100% recommend the dogmatic head collar www.dogmatic.org.uk they are designed by dog people, they look similar to the halti but thats it!! totally different workings. I have one for my dane (who is 15st!!! and i would let my 2yr old toddler walk him with the dogmatic {under supervision obviously!!!}) and my small foxhound cross who would put any husky to shame! I now have a constant dull ache from a strained muscle in my shoulder from all the years of walking her and like you tried every gimmick on the net and only found dogmatic to work. Its kind, its gentle on the dog and its comfortable. It resembles a horse head collar, goes on the dogs head in the same way. Obviously if your dog is not used to wearing it, it will protest in the beginning a bit but after some gentle introduction should settle down and you can both start to enjoy walking again.

nemo32

Oh Kassie I am delighted to read your post.. like I said I am hoping the dogmatic is the answer to all my prays. Ordered it on Monday, looks like it could be next week before I get it though

nemo32

It arrived this morning and we are just back from our first walk.. I think the DOGMATIC collar just saved my sanity! I love it, my puppy not so much at the start but came around to the idea. Was able to walk him with one hand by the end of the walk. Can't wait to go back out in the morning. Thank you to everyone who recommended it! :-)

bluecherry74

That's great news! Hopefully you'll only need it temporarily like me. One thing that I found really helped with the Dogmatic was to give Henry a bit of extra length on the lead so he could put his head down and sniff freely. He didn't struggle against it at all once he was able to do that.

Good luck!

thebullkf

Folks,


Are there any bricks and mortar shops selling these ?

Thanks

euser1984

Harnesses were designed with the original attention to be worn for working dogs (think of a sled dog or a police dog) and not to stop pulling when walking them. Prong collars are used to train their dogs with techniques far outdated.

They might work but your basically forcing a dog to behave in a certain way and conditioning them to do something that they really didn't or don't want to do. The other alternative which is scientific and proven over years of practice, is to have a good bond with your dog and award behaviour that you want; while not awarding unwanted behaviour. The dog will want to do it, if you condition him/her that way and they will enjoy doing it for you and pleasing you, if you have the bond. You have a happy dog generally - that's not to say you don't need to put the foot down when needs be - a prong collar isn't needed though. A change of tone and power in your voice is enough to let the dog know they have "let you down".

I see someone walking a dog close to me and they always have the halti on and have conditioned the dog to always walk to heel. It's very unnatural to look at because it is unnatural for a dog. Dogs want to explore and smell stuff because that is in their instinct.

You have to let a dog be a dog.....

Sorry for opening an old thread and I don't believe I'm opening a can of worms - this is factual and backed up with practiced results....give it a go - read up on clicker training and you will see positive results fairly quickly.

For someone that mentioned "cured"....maybe your dog has been cured from your pov. From the dogs point of view I don't think he would view it the same way or define the problem in the same way.

A properly conditioned dog on the lead never pulls (at all)....if he pulls, even a small bit then the dog is not walking properly on a lead.

ZiabR

thebullkf wrote: »

Folks,


Are there any bricks and mortar shops selling these ?

Thanks

Yes, got mine in Woodies DIY. Might not have been called dogmatic but its the same thing. 9.99 euro.

tk123

logik wrote: »

Yes, got mine in Woodies DIY. Might not have been called dogmatic but its the same thing. 9.99 euro.

The canny collar? They're both head collars but they're not the same - the canny attached behind the dogs head but the dogmatic attaches under their chin and is better padded/better made.

RubyGirl

thebullkf wrote: »

Folks,


Are there any bricks and mortar shops selling these ?

Thanks

What kind of dog do you have thebullf?

Knine

logik wrote: »

Yes, got mine in Woodies DIY. Might not have been called dogmatic but its the same thing. 9.99 euro.

Def not the same thing for a tenner!

ZiabR

Knine wrote: »

Def not the same thing for a tenner!

Well it looks the same as any image i search for under "dogmatic". It was not the Canny collar. I will see If I can find the name for you.

Edit - Found it, it was the Halti Anti Pull collar. 9.99 and works on my Lab. There was no need to sound so condescending either guys.

euser1984

euser1984 wrote: »

Harnesses were designed with the original attention to be worn for working dogs (think of a sled dog or a police dog) and not to stop pulling when walking them. Prong collars are used to train their dogs with techniques far outdated.

They might work but your basically forcing a dog to behave in a certain way and conditioning them to do something that they really didn't or don't want to do. The other alternative which is scientific and proven over years of practice, is to have a good bond with your dog and award behaviour that you want; while not awarding unwanted behaviour. The dog will want to do it, if you condition him/her that way and they will enjoy doing it for you and pleasing you, if you have the bond. You have a happy dog generally - that's not to say you don't need to put the foot down when needs be - a prong collar isn't needed though. A change of tone and power in your voice is enough to let the dog know they have "let you down".

I see someone walking a dog close to me and they always have the halti on and have conditioned the dog to always walk to heel. It's very unnatural to look at because it is unnatural for a dog. Dogs want to explore and smell stuff because that is in their instinct.

You have to let a dog be a dog.....

Sorry for opening an old thread and I don't believe I'm opening a can of worms - this is factual and backed up with practiced results....give it a go - read up on clicker training and you will see positive results fairly quickly.

For someone that mentioned "cured"....maybe your dog has been cured from your pov. From the dogs point of view I don't think he would view it the same way or define the problem in the same way.

A properly conditioned dog on the lead never pulls (at all)....if he pulls, even a small bit then the dog is not walking properly on a lead.

I'm not fishing for likes but I don't really understand why I wasn't acknowledged after offering this information. Did it come across as a little condescending?

Thanks.

muddypaws

euser1984 wrote: »

I'm not fishing for likes but I don't really understand why I wasn't acknowledged after offering this information. Did it come across as a little condescending?

Thanks.

It didn't come across as condescending, no, but DBB had already posted a lot of very good and useful information earlier in the thread, so perhaps posters had nothing else to add.

One thing though, you say to award (maybe you mean reward?) only good behaviour, and not award bad, but then you also say that a change of tone and power in your voice is enough to let the dog know they have "let you down". Surely that is acknowledging, and thereby rewarding the bad behaviour? Ignore the bad behaviour, such as pulling, reward the good.