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air rifles?
Comments
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Broad question, but for me the following come to mind: Daystate, Air Arms & Weihrauch.
My interest mainly lies in vintage airguns, so I have great regard for the oldies that BSA and Webley produced from about 1910 to the 1960's...i have a few and they still shoot wonderfully;)
If you asked the question, 'what's best', hoping to decide what brand of air rifle you might get, let us know what you plan to use it for...Field Target, 10m Olympic, vermin control, informal target shooting/plinking etc. Knowing its purpose will help in deciding its action/caliber/power etc.
Hope that helps for the moment!:)0 -
I'd be interested in following this thread. I'm on the look out for a pcp for vermin control but I know nothing about air rifles. Hoping to buy in the summer. All info appreciated. Is there much difference between .177 as opposed to .220
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Boiled-egg
Air rifle choice is an individual thing, so I strongly recommend that you try to handle and shoot as many as you can first. One or two will soon emerge as favorites...
As a point in the right direction, have a look to begin with at Air Arms 410&510 variants, Weihrauch's HW100 and maybe BSA's r10.
Caliber choice in airgunning has raged for years...pros & cons of each...I'm going to sit on the fence and say I use both .177 & .22 and also .20/5mm:D
ATB
Slug0 -
Broad question, but for me the following come to mind: Daystate, Air Arms & Weihrauch.
My interest mainly lies in vintage airguns, so I have great regard for the oldies that BSA and Webley produced from about 1910 to the 1960's...i have a few and they still shoot wonderfully;)
If you asked the question, 'what's best', hoping to decide what brand of air rifle you might get, let us know what you plan to use it for...Field Target, 10m Olympic, vermin control, informal target shooting/plinking etc. Knowing its purpose will help in deciding its action/caliber/power etc.
Hope that helps for the moment!:)
also hunting rabbits but i suppose that gos in as vermin control0 -
Slug-gun is spot on with the top brands - there are a few others but really, if you want an air rifle you'll enjoy rather than endure, then those three are the ones to be looking at.
WRT the PCP's - again, I'd second those recommendations.
For my part there are 2x Weihrauch HW100's in my family (a .177 FAC and a .22K) and up until about 2 weeks ago, a HW90 in .177 as well (the auld boy switched up to a Browning BL-22 as he simply wasn't using the '90 since he got the '100).
For vermin, any of the three above will do the job perfectly - shot placement is a little more important with the '177's as they are smaller to begin with, but they can also overpenetrate and not deliver as much damage as you'd like as a result. They make up for this by being easier to place to begin with on account of flying flatter and faster than the '22.
The .22's though are simply outstanding if you know your ballistics well enough and have a scope that lets you judge your range exactly (and after 35m I do mean *EXACTLY!*) - they're also more wind resistant and whatever they hit, up to and including rabbit, is going down with anything even closely resembling appropriate shot placement.
When you're buying, go for something in the 18-25ft.lb bracket. These offer (IMO) the best balance between gas efficiency (for the PCP's) or recoil (for the springers), and effective range. UK guns tend to be brought in at or below 12ft.lb on account of the licensing system over there. 12ft.lbs is still plenty for rabbit and smaller, but will demand a bit more of the shooter wrt ballistics and shot placement.
Expect to pay in the region of ~€900-1200 for a top notch PCP rifle (HW100 or similar) and charging setup, and about €450-600 for a top notch break barrell (HW90, etc...) or underlever (HW77, etc...)
Apologies for all the Weihrauch model references - I'm not slighting either of the other brands, I just don't know the model ranges off hand.
RE pellets - Never has the old addage "put **** in get **** out" been more appropriate than with air rifle pellets.
JSB, H&N, Crossmann, Daystate, Beeman and RWS all have "match" or "premier" grade pellets. These are the ones you NEED to be buying.
Expect to pay €14-€18 for a tin of 200-500 for .22 or .177 respectively and go for the round head (diablo) pellets or hollow points if you insist on anything else.
Do NOT attempt to use wadcutters (flat head pellets) or pointed pellets.
The former are target rounds designed for lower power rifles (5.5ft.lb~ish) shooting paper - now, I've tested them on several occasions and whilst they do group far better than I'd expected out to about 30m, after that they spread like skeet shot!
The latter simply NEVER group well on account of the fact that the tip of the pellet has such an important bearing on the flight path, and you simply can't make every point exactly the same.
Hope this helps.0 -
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I'd add that you should get hold of a few airgun magazines, too, Airgunner and Airgun World are top mags for reviews, but Gun Mart has also got good write-ups from the same folks who write in the others - with the added bonus of covering every other aspect of shooting and accessories, too.
I'm treating myself this birthday to an FX Biathlon air rifle - a reminder of something I used to do many years back that I enjoyed so much. A couple of us old f4rts might be getting on our roller-blades to set up a non-snow biathlon run!
tac
PS and BTW - don't think that it's 'only' an air rifle - in the RoI airguns of all kinds are treated the same as a cartridge-firing firearm and licensed accordingly. The law on where and how they may be used is also pretty much the same, so no backyard plinking!0 -
extremetaz wrote: »Slug-gun is spot on with the top brands - there are a few others but really, if you want an air rifle you'll enjoy rather than endure, then those three are the ones to be looking at.
WRT the PCP's - again, I'd second those recommendations.
For my part there are 2x Weihrauch HW100's in my family (a .177 FAC and a .22K) and up until about 2 weeks ago, a HW90 in .177 as well (the auld boy switched up to a Browning BL-22 as he simply wasn't using the '90 since he got the '100).
For vermin, any of the three above will do the job perfectly - shot placement is a little more important with the '177's as they are smaller to begin with, but they can also overpenetrate and not deliver as much damage as you'd like as a result. They make up for this by being easier to place to begin with on account of flying flatter and faster than the '22.
The .22's though are simply outstanding if you know your ballistics well enough and have a scope that lets you judge your range exactly (and after 35m I do mean *EXACTLY!*) - they're also more wind resistant and whatever they hit, up to and including rabbit, is going down with anything even closely resembling appropriate shot placement.
When you're buying, go for something in the 18-25ft.lb bracket. These offer (IMO) the best balance between gas efficiency (for the PCP's) or recoil (for the springers), and effective range. UK guns tend to be brought in at or below 12ft.lb on account of the licensing system over there. 12ft.lbs is still plenty for rabbit and smaller, but will demand a bit more of the shooter wrt ballistics and shot placement.
Expect to pay in the region of ~€900-1200 for a top notch PCP rifle (HW100 or similar) and charging setup, and about €450-600 for a top notch break barrell (HW90, etc...) or underlever (HW77, etc...)
Apologies for all the Weihrauch model references - I'm not slighting either of the other brands, I just don't know the model ranges off hand.
RE pellets - Never has the old addage "put **** in get **** out" been more appropriate than with air rifle pellets.
JSB, H&N, Crossmann, Daystate, Beeman and RWS all have "match" or "premier" grade pellets. These are the ones you NEED to be buying.
Expect to pay €14-€18 for a tin of 200-500 for .22 or .177 respectively and go for the round head (diablo) pellets or hollow points if you insist on anything else.
Do NOT attempt to use wadcutters (flat head pellets) or pointed pellets.
The former are target rounds designed for lower power rifles (5.5ft.lb~ish) shooting paper - now, I've tested them on several occasions and whilst they do group far better than I'd expected out to about 30m, after that they spread like skeet shot!
The latter simply NEVER group well on account of the fact that the tip of the pellet has such an important bearing on the flight path, and you simply can't make every point exactly the same.
Hope this helps.
exactly what i was looking for:)0 -
Check out the following link also:
http://www.cubleycat.com/ghjm.html
The following are very good: Air Arms Field Plus, Air Arms Heavies, JSB's Exact Monster, Bisley Magnums, Bisley Hollow Points, H & N Hollow points, Daystate Heavies, RWS Super Hollow Point etc.0 -
Excellent advice from extremetaz. Being from the UK I’d also recommend a Theoben Rapid, one of the most popular and reliable guns there.. Get yourself onto some of the UK airgun forums, loads of relevant advice there.0
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In an ideal world I'd go for a Daystate airwolf in .20 cal -electronic trigger with huge shot count. Yours for about 1300 stg.0
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My 2 cents from owning two Air Arms.......... Prosport in .22, at 16 lbs per foot, underlever spring powered, very accurate out to 30 metres, being spring powered hold consistency is very important to manage the recoil. A 510SL PCP again in .22, 11.5 lbs per foot, has been tweaked for shot consistency, approx 80 shots per charge, very accurate, no recoil, have taken rabbits out to 50 metres.
Taking a rabbit at 50 metres for me means using a laser rangefinder, having also run both rifles through a chronograph using Hawke Chairgun to produce power curves, along with very good weather conditions. You need to be absolutely sure of shot placement at distances beyond 25 metres, for me anyway :-) . As mentioned by extremetaz only use dome pellets, also rifles can be pellet sensitive so you may have to try several brands , I use AA or JSB field diablos.
Strongly advise that you budget for both if you can; I use a Combro cb625 chronograph, and a Hawke LRF400 rangefinder, can recommend both.
Have yet to own or try a Weihrauch, very good reputation, I like the look of the HW100KT or HW97 :-)0 -
Whats the story with ordering pellets from the UK? Is it legal to do or are there any good stockists of those type of pellets that are mentioned here in ireland?0
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Whats the story with ordering pellets from the UK? Is it legal to do or are there any good stockists of those type of pellets that are mentioned here in ireland?
I was talking to a poster in Cork earlier last year who was taking up precision target air pistol shooting.
Sadly, when I talked about sending him a couple of tins of different higher-grade match pellets that these guns use, I found that they had to be sent to a gun dealer in Cork as imported ammunition, with an end-user importation license, just like any centre-fire stuff that you'd put through a regular hunting rifle. :eek:
Buying any amount of airgun pellets in the rest of the world is limited by the strength of your arms, not the threat of instant annihilation to the populace caused by the appearance among them of these ferociously dangerous little beggars, either singly or in tins of 500...
Needless to say, I couldn't be ar$ed to go through all that, even as a favour. He was very understanding.
In any case, I'm sure that you can get any and all of the suitable fodder for any air gun over in the RoI, as the experts here will tell you.
tac0 -
Excellent advice from extremetaz. Being from the UK I’d also recommend a Theoben Rapid, one of the most popular and reliable guns there.. Get yourself onto some of the UK airgun forums, loads of relevant advice there.
One of the best such forums, even though I'm on it, is www.airgunbbs.com
Don't mention me there though.
Well, OK, if you must.
tac0 -
Have yet to own or try a Weihrauch, very good reputation, I like the look of the HW100KT or HW97 :-)
The KT is an absolute cracker of a field rifle. Still far heavier than a light .22LR but a beautiful gun to carry nevertheless, and certainly far less of a handful than the FAC version.
Couldn't recommend one highly enough.
Slug gun was singing the praises of the '77 only a few days back and as I understand it, the '97 is simply a '77 with a revised cheekpiece profile, and a moderator included.0 -
Great advice from everyone! and extremetaz thanks for yours...you beat me to it!:)
Tac, thanks for link to airgunbbs, I'm a member too and have spent many hours visiting their collectors/vintage section:D:D
Good thread, and great to see an interest in air rifles...too often overlooked in favour of a .22lr.
Slug0 -
Hi again guys , I've been thinking about it and the brands you shown me are all quite expensive and seeing that its my first gun i've decided to buy a midrange rifle instead for the reason that I dont need the best for its for its purpose and i plan on buying a real*** rifle in a few years anyway
know any brands that are middle of the road ?
Gamo has popped up quite a bit but i hear there arent great but maybe thats just from the view of those who own the best there is and nothing can compare to their own. would you consier Gamo middle of the road?
Most of their rifles have low prices so i'd be willing to pay a bit more but as ive ive learned before -Price does not equal quality
*** what term is used to distinquish a pellet rifle from a rifle that shoots bullets with gun powder since a pellet gun and .22lr rifle are both 'real guns'/'firearms'0 -
lb1997
Gamo are fine, but the other brands mentioned are better imo.
You might look at a second hand one. I saw an old HW break barrel in a shop recently, that was only about €250 or so. Would be fine for what you want and although well used, I'd consider it nicely bedded in!:D
Although we must have a "Firearms Cert" to own an air rifle, I still refer to them as "air rifles" and not "firearms". A good way to describe a powder rifle would be to call it a rimfire, centre fire, etc and then everyone knows what you mean.0 -
lb1997
Gamo are fine, but the other brands mentioned are better imo.
You might look at a second hand one. I saw an old HW break barrel in a shop recently, that was only about €250 or so. Would be fine for what you want and although well used, I'd consider it nicely bedded in!:D
Although we must have a "Firearms Cert" to own an air rifle, I still refer to them as "air rifles" and not "firearms". A good way to describe a powder rifle would be to call it a rimfire, centre fire, etc and then everyone knows what you mean.
thanks for the tip on gun terms:D
and about buying a gun 2nd hand, since I dont have a license and im only 16
I want to buy from our local shop just because i dont think the superintendent will approve much of my first gun coming from a private seller . unless you mean a 2nd hand gun from the gun shop, i'm pretty sure he doesnt have any air rifles 2nd hand but buying 2nd hand was a great idea!:)0 -
thanks for the tip on gun terms:D
and about buying a gun 2nd hand, since I dont have a license and im only 16
I want to buy from our local shop just because i dont think the superintendent will approve much of my first gun coming from a private seller . unless you mean a 2nd hand gun from the gun shop, i'm pretty sure he doesnt have any air rifles 2nd hand but buying 2nd hand was a great idea!:)
Lakelands shooting in mullingar have a used gamo whisper for 300 euro if your looking to buy second hand0 -
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Whats the story with ordering pellets from the UK? Is it legal to do or are there any good stockists of those type of pellets that are mentioned here in ireland?
I do not know if it is legal to do so "but never thought about it when they were not live ammo" but i buy my pellets in N.I and the guy gets a courier to deliver them for about £10 ster0 -
thanks for the tip on gun terms:D
and about buying a gun 2nd hand, since I dont have a license and im only 16
I want to buy from our local shop just because i dont think the superintendent will approve much of my first gun coming from a private seller . unless you mean a 2nd hand gun from the gun shop, i'm pretty sure he doesnt have any air rifles 2nd hand but buying 2nd hand was a great idea!:)
Given that this is your first licenced firearm you will mostly likely need to complete a Safe Shoot Trainining Course and by doing so will certainly help your application. On a first application some Garda Stations are insisting on some formal training. You cover handling of firearm, trigger position, stance, safety towards others, safe transportation and storage. You will need a safe for your firearm assuming it is your first. Proof of same will be required for application purposes. Check out: http://www.nationalshootingcentre.ie/safety.html#ifacountryside0 -
I do not know if it is legal to do so "but never thought about it when they were not live ammo" but i buy my pellets in N.I and the guy gets a courier to deliver them for about £10 ster
Loveta - any harm asking who you buy your pellets from ? Is it Intershoot (Omagh) or Norman Harpur (Fermanagh) ? Cheers0 -
Airguns are not firearms. Our DOJ have mangled the English language to make their legislation suit themselves.
I saw a UK antiques programme last night where someone bought a lovely boxed Webley pistol and reflected sadly that this would be a serious crime in this country.
In general, a second hand quality rifle will be a better buy that a new cheapo brand. Try the secondhand section in www.airgunbuyer.com although they are not as cheap as you might expect.0 -
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thanks for the tip on gun terms:D
and about buying a gun 2nd hand, since I dont have a license and im only 16
I want to buy from our local shop just because i dont think the superintendent will approve much of my first gun coming from a private seller . unless you mean a 2nd hand gun from the gun shop, i'm pretty sure he doesnt have any air rifles 2nd hand but buying 2nd hand was a great idea!:)
Try also City Airweapons (Lincoln) Ltd based in Lincoln, UK. Ask for Stuart. He has a wider range of Used Airguns than that are not shown on website. See his adverts on Air Gunner or Air Gun World Magazine. He will ship to a Northern Irish Dealer for £30 (approx) and to ROI Dealer for £60. I can recommend Norman Harpur in Fermanagh as a NI Dealer.
http://www.cityairweaponslincoln.co.uk/index.html I have bought a used Air Rifle from City Airweapopns and they are very competitive and very good quality.
Try Norman Harpur to see what second hand Air Rilfes he has in stock:
http://www.normanharpur.com/component/option,com_virtuemart/page,shop.browse/category_id,7/Itemid,26/
If going for a PCP i would recommend Blackpool Air Rifles :
http://airgunbuyer.com/details.asp?cat=Charging Eqpmt.&SubCat=MDE Charging Equipment&Product=325
I have yet to find a supplier as competitive on charging equipment. They will ship to you direct at an address in NI/£30 and ROI/£60.
If you buy local be sure to price around among other dealers here in ROI. There is huge variations in price0 -
Loveta - any harm asking who you buy your pellets from ? Is it Intershoot (Omagh) or Norman Harpur (Fermanagh) ? Cheers
I use intershoot - same arrangement as mentioned.Airguns are not firearms.
Whilst I agree in terms of the mechanical definition, unfortunately in the eyes of Irish law, airguns, and anything else incorperating a barrel and expelling a projectile with a muzzle energy exceeding 1J *ARE* defined as firearms.
I don't know that the legal definition in the UK differs significantly from this either - the principle difference between our law and theirs is that firearms with muzzle energy not exceeding ~16J (12ft.lbs) are licence exempt.In general, a second hand quality rifle will be a better buy that a new cheapo brand.
That's solid advice right there - I'd go for a well kept "preloved" rifle over a brand new one any day of the week.0 -
If i asked a rfd here in ireland that i wanted to import an air rifle from the uk would he decline,due to the fact that he wouldnt be making any money out of it or does he charge a fee for doing so. Also would he not be peed off that you would not be buying what he had in stock??
Hope this makes sense.0 -
An RFD can handle the logistics for you, and will probably charge a handling fee, probably about €50-€100. They should be happy for the business!
They shouldn't be peed off...and if they were to feel put out, they should have had some decent stock in the shop to begin with!!:D
BTW, there are some great 2nd hand deals and choice to be had in the UK, and even with an extra €100 for handling this end, you'll still end up with a better deal!0 -
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extremetaz wrote: »I don't know that the legal definition in the UK differs significantly from this either - the principle difference between our law and theirs is that firearms with muzzle energy not exceeding ~16J (12ft.lbs) are licence exempt.
You are just about correct, except in the terminology - apologies for the long answer, but please pick out the bits that interest you -
Airguns in the UK are subject to the firearms acts, under the Firearms (Dangerous air weapons) rules 1969 they are classified as low powered Air Weapons and as such they are restricted to a maximum power of 12 foot pounds energy for a rifle and 6 foot pounds energy for a pistol. Air rifles above 12ft/lbs are classified as a Section 1 Firearm and requires a licence (FAC) otherwise known as a firearms certificate, and an Air pistol above 6ftlb is a prohibited weapon.
UK Legal Limit
To calculate the power of an airgun you need to use a chronograph to measure the speed of the pellet (in feet per second) when fired, and you need to know the weight of the pellet in grains. Once you have that information you perform the following calculation:- speed(ft/sec) X speed(ft/sec) X weight(grains) /450240
This gives you the result in foot pounds force (ftlb).
As mentioned the legal maximum for an unlicensed air rifle is 12 ftlb which from changing round the above formula, gives the approximate values as follows:-
A .22 pellet weighing 14.4 grains, maximum permissible speed is 612 ft/sec
A .177 pellet weighing 7.9 grains, maximum permissible speed is 826 ft/sec
The corresponding figures for a pistol are 433 ft/sec for a .22 and 584 ft/sec for a .177
The pellet weights used in the above calculation are typical weights for the sizes of pellet but you must always check the actual weight of your pellet before performing your own calculation.
Airgun Quarry
The following pests are considered suitable for controlling using a sub-12 ftlb Airgun.
BIRDS: (covered by the open general licences) crows, rooks, jackdaws, magpies, jays, wood pigeon, collared doves, and feral pigeons.
MAMMALS: brown rats, grey squirrels, stoats, mink and rabbits.
Information sheet on general licences for the control of certain bird species in the UK please click here to read
Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981
All bird and animals are protected by law. Certain species are classified as pests or vermin and only these species can be legitimately shot and then only by authorised persons. An Authorised Person is someone who has the proper permission from the land owner to control pests on that land. © Airgunforum.co.uk
Offence Penalties
The Penalties for breaking current UK firearms laws with Airguns are as follows:-
Carrying a loaded Air-weapon in a public place 6 months imprisonment and / or £5,000 fine.
Trespassing with an air weapon 3 months imprisonment and / or £2,500 fine.
Trespassing on private land with an air weapon 3 months imprisonment and / or £2,500 fine.
Possessing or using an air weapon if sentenced to 3 months or more in custody 3 months imprisonment and / or £2,500 fine.
In addition if original sentence up to 3 years 5 year ban on use of firearms.
Or if for 3 years or more Life ban on use of firearms.
Killing or injuring any bird or protected animal unless authorised £5,000 fine.
Firing an air weapon within 15m / 50ft of a public highway £1,000 fine.
Selling or hiring air weapon or ammunition to person under 17 6 months imprisonment and / or £5,000 fine.
Making a gift of air weapon or ammunition to person under 14 £1,000 fine.
Having air weapon or ammunition with intent to damage property 10 years imprisonment.
Having air weapon with intent to endanger life Life imprisonment and / or appropriate fine.
Using air weapon to resist or prevent arrest Life imprisonment and / or appropriate fine.
Threatening others with an air weapon (even if unloaded) to cause them to fear unlawful violence 10 years imprisonment and / or appropriate fine.
Not forgetting the chance of being shot and killed by the police should you not obey instructions when challenged by them, they cannot tell if you have just an airgun or a more lethal firearm so will treat all arms as lethal and respond accordingly.
Civil Law
It should be born in mind by every airgun shooter that the unexpected could happen and they could find themselves facing a civil action for damage to property or even injury to persons or livestock. Every airgun shooter should have Third Party Public Liability Insurance before venturing out of doors, and joining one of the bodies representing shooters interests is the best way to achieve this.
Following the enactment of the Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006, listed below are the current regulations relating to the purchase, ownership, sale and possession of airguns and ammunition.
Persons under the age of 14:
1) No person under the age of 14 may purchase, hire or be given an airgun or ammunition.
2) A person under the age of 14 must at all times when shooting be supervised by a person over the age of 21.
Persons over the age of 14 but under 18:
1) No person under the age of 18 may purchase, hire or be given an airgun or ammunition.
2) A person in this age group may shoot unsupervised on private land with the permission of the landowner but must be supervised by somebody over the age of 21 if in a public place.
It should be noted that this means that a person aged seventeen and a half who may have a driving licence cannot take an air rifle from home to his club to shoot unless the gun is possessed by somebody over the age of eighteen or the seventeen and a half-year old is supervised by a person over the age of twenty-one.
Persons over the age of 18:
A person over the age of eighteen can buy an airgun and pellets and use them unsupervised.
General Restrictions:
1) It is an offence to have an airgun in a public place "without good reason", the proof being the responsibility of the possessor.
2) It is an offence to discharge a firearm within fifty feet of the centre of a highway, if doing so would cause a nuisance or endangering the public
3) When shooting over private land it is an offence for the pellet to go beyond the boundary of the premises on which the gun is being used unless there is permission from the adjoining landowner.
4) Persons who by way of trade deal in airguns, pressure bearing parts or component parts must be a Registered Firearms Dealer and any transaction must be face-to-face. Ammunition for airguns may continue to be sold by post.
Exceptions:
1) It is not an offence for a person to have with him an airgun or ammunition whilst being a member of a Home Office Approved Club in connection with target practice.
2) Air rifles with a muzzle energy in excess of 12 foot pounds (which require licensing) are not subject to the general restrictions listed above.
3) An "airgun" with the kinetic energy of less than one joule is considered a toy and is therefore not covered by the above restrictions but may be considered a realistic imitation firearm (if it looks like a gun). The sale of realistic imitation firearms is now banned with one or two minor exceptions, mainly for historical re-enactment, museums and television/film/theatrical performances or as a recognized member of an airsoft site affiliated to the Association of British AirSoft. © Airgunforum.co.uk
Crime and Security Bill:
Offence of allowing minors access to air rifles/pistols, The Firearms Act 1968 is amended as follows.
Failing to prevent minors from having air rifles/pistols.
It is an offence for a person in possession of an air rifle/pistol to fail to take reasonable precautions to prevent any persons under the age of 18 from having the air rifle/pistol with him.
Hope that helps.
tac0
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