Web Application Quote

ExperiencedLad

Hi,

I have to get a quote for a web application I am developing. This is a long-term business opportunity but I am not a programmer and so I require the very minimum useful product to be developed, with full technical documentation, to start me off as for the moment I do not have a technical lead.

The application is to be developed preferably as a PHP web application (alternatively Ruby or Java will do if the developer is keen enough), leveraging OpenStreetMap, Facebook API, PhoneGap and HTML5.

I am told an extremely reliable source that a really useful product like this can be done in less than 500 lines of code, so it is not a massive job to begin with.

The application has to use OpenStreetMap to send directions from a specified location, using a url code referencing that location, via sms, email or social media to the receiver opening the url in their browser.

So the application can take my location and send this to another smartphone contained in a url, which can be opened by the receivers browser, and then displays directions from the receivers location to my location.

Alternatively, I should be able to specify another location (either an address or by dragging a pin on the map) and complete the same process - providing directions to everyone who opens the url from their location to the one that I have specified.

This is all open-sourced technology and the tools are largely built into OpenStreetMap. The creative step is connecting that with HTML5 on the first user's phone in order to grab their location.

I do not expect a quote from this specification. I would like to have a detailed conversation about timelines, technology and how the application can best be built so that other developers can build on top of it, adding features and functionality in line with traction and user feedback.

I can contribute a lot to the interfaces, database and specification but I only understand this software at a high level so I cannot be confident that all of what I am saying is feasible. This is why I need to work with a technical person in order to get an accurate quote.

The end result of this project should be a significant platform so I am open to beginning it from a different angle with a different minimum useful product if necessary.

Cheers,
C

Graham

You may get a better response in the Situations Vacant sticky over in the developer forum:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055234599

If you do find a developer that can do this in 500 lines of code, would you send him my way once the project is complete please

The Corinthian

ExperiencedLad wrote: »

I have to get a quote for a web application I am developing. This is a long-term business opportunity but I am not a programmer and so I require the very minimum useful product to be developed, with full technical documentation, to start me off as for the moment I do not have a technical lead.

Let me see if I have this right; you essentially need a business analyst to develop the application design. That is, do a functional analysis, some element of product development, and finally codify this as a technical specification, which can then be used to get a quote on the cost of development (this is the only 'development' in this sentence that involves programming, BTW) and to actually build the application.

If so, you'll want to engage a pretty experienced technical resource with at least five years experience, including requirements gathering, software design and BA skills. As such you'll need to make it worth their while, so you'd have to go into this if you're advertising to find someone.

Does this answer your query?

I am told an extremely reliable source that a really useful product like this can be done in less than 500 lines of code, so it is not a massive job to begin with.

It may be possible to write a very basic 'proof of concept' in less than 500 lines of code, but I would be doubtful as to how useful this would be or how usable (you can easily write 500 lines of code on the UI alone).

ExperiencedLad

The Corinthian wrote: »

Let me see if I have this right; you essentially need a business analyst to develop the application design. That is, do a functional analysis, some element of product development, and finally codify this as a technical specification, which can then be used to get a quote on the cost of development (this is the only 'development' in this sentence that involves programming, BTW) and to actually build the application.

If so, you'll want to engage a pretty experienced technical resource with at least five years experience, including requirements gathering, software design and BA skills. As such you'll need to make it worth their while, so you'd have to go into this if you're advertising to find someone.

Does this answer your query?

It may be possible to write a very basic 'proof of concept' in less than 500 lines of code, but I would be doubtful as to how useful this would be or how usable (you can easily write 500 lines of code on the UI alone).

Hi there,

Cheers for the response. Actually I require a programmer to work with me on the minimum useful product. I am quite confident that the tools required to develop this are already built into OpenStreetMap and PhoneGap, I have seen the source code for an application that does precisely what I need to start off. I considered purchasing that application but would like to know if I can get it developed myself at a lower price.

I know enough to develop the specification, interface design and much of the database myself... but I need a small number of quotes from experienced developers. The reason I requested someone to work with me on the exact and most appropriate specification for a minimum useful product is that I do not believe someone can pick numbers out of their head based upon a thread on Boards, and thus we will map the application in detail together so we know we are on the same page and what gets built is really appropriate to my needs.

I don't need a business or functional analyst... I am quite confident in my abilities and experience in that area.

You are correct that this is about proof of concept, and that the initial web app will be basic, but basic does not mean hacked together with no documentation. This is about doing something very small scale with a keen eye to the future.

A proof of concept will give me weight to attract partners and funders. I have done the requirements gathering since the concept was born in October, so no need for that either. But the requirements must be prioritised based upon user feedback and development (in the programming sense) insights that there may be.

The Corinthian

Not really sure what you're looking for then, as you apparantly can fit the bill on all of this. Someone to collaborate with? Sanity check your work? Write a formal document? Give a more accurate quote?

I still think those are the sort of skills and experience that you'll need to use, even if they don't employ those skills formally, as they have to be able to contribute at that level. Either way, you'll need to offer something by way of compensation.

ExperiencedLad

The Corinthian wrote: »

Not really sure what you're looking for then, as you apparantly can fit the bill on all of this. Someone to collaborate with? Sanity check your work? Write a formal document? Give a more accurate quote?

I still think those are the sort of skills and experience that you'll need to use, even if they don't employ those skills formally, as they have to be able to contribute at that level. Either way, you'll need to offer something by way of compensation.

Sorry for the confusion... basically, I need someone to build the thing, but not just hacked together, I mean built to scale and add features with new iterations. This is a back and forth process and I don't presume someone to be able to quote me a price off the top of their heads. I know generally that this will cost anywhere between €500 and €1500 to build and I am willing to pay for the minimum useful product. But the purpose of this product is to build momentum to attract a technical lead and/or funding. I am confident that this is an attractive proposition.

And if you are wondering why I don't just outsource it, well I would like to work with someone here in Ireland as in the long term I will need a partner in-house.

The Corinthian

ExperiencedLad wrote: »

Sorry for the confusion... basically, I need someone to build the thing, but not just hacked together, I mean built to scale and add features with new iterations. This is a back and forth process and I don't presume someone to be able to quote me a price off the top of their heads. I know generally that this will cost anywhere between €500 and €1500 to build and I am willing to pay for the minimum useful product. But the purpose of this product is to build momentum to attract a technical lead and/or funding. I am confident that this is an attractive proposition.

If all you're looking for is a competant developer to build the proof of concept, then you should be able to get someone to do so for the kind of money you're talking about.

The question is that you appeared to be seeking more than a developer in your initial post, but reading it all again you really only want an experienced developer. However an experienced developer is not a technical lead, because a technical lead (as you will need in the future) will need to have much stronger business analysis and even project management skills and experience. Experienced developers can do these things on a basic enough level, but not to the level that you'll require before long.

And if you are wondering why I don't just outsource it, well I would like to work with someone here in Ireland as in the long term I will need a partner in-house.

Were I a developer looking at your project, I'd presently just look at the initial proof of concept budget and expect nothing else. You can talk about long term in-house partners, and the like, but you need to put down on paper how you propose to do this; offer an initial stake, sign a contract commiting yourself to this developer getting all future work, or something else. Otherwise it's just conversation.

Of course, this isn't an issue if you're willing to pay for hours worked, but unless they're desperate for the possible future work, you'll get nothing over these hours.

ExperiencedLad

The Corinthian wrote: »

If all you're looking for is a competant developer to build the proof of concept, then you should be able to get someone to do so for the kind of money you're talking about.

The question is that you appeared to be seeking more than a developer in your initial post, but reading it all again you really only want an experienced developer. However an experienced developer is not a technical lead, because a technical lead (as you will need in the future) will need to have much stronger business analysis and even project management skills and experience. Experienced developers can do these things on a basic enough level, but not to the level that you'll require before long.

Were I a developer looking at your project, I'd presently just look at the initial proof of concept budget and expect nothing else. You can talk about long term in-house partners, and the like, but you need to put down on paper how you propose to do this; offer an initial stake, sign a contract committing yourself to this developer getting all future work, or something else. Otherwise it's just conversation.

Of course, this isn't an issue if you're willing to pay for hours worked, but unless they're desperate for the possible future work, you'll get nothing over these hours.

Good developers are valuable and don't take risks on "ideas guys". I can pay for the proof of concept but I will only pay someone who will be considering the concept as a future venture, given that the risk in them wasting their time is mitigated.

Don't trivialise a conversation. A thorough conversation and I am capable of discerning the person looking for a quick nixer from the kind of person I want. I am also experienced enough to tell the difference between an experienced developer and a "universal programmer" or "rockstar". That experience is hard won.

You are correct that I am looking for a technical lead. I'm looking for a technical lead that has the awareness and intelligence to built this application in a manner that allows them or someone else to scale it properly. Irish software companies very often suffer from "Microsoft syndrome", being dominated by sales teams and racking up massive technical debt - meaning that their product fail to scale and break due to the push to meet unrealistic and unwarranted deadlines. We have not fully adopted authentic Agile practices and too often confuse Agile with 'having no plan beyond a few weeks'. Quality software applications are subtle to the point of being built not on what a user wants intellectually, but on their automotive behaviour.

I only know two engineers who understand this (engineers commonly build for other engineers, not realising that an application doing something is much different to it doing something intuitively), but they are both engaged elsewhere. So I thought I would look here and elsewhere online for a technical lead. As I said previously, time-frames are not important for now. The minimum useful product can be built in spare time over the next two-three months if that is what it takes to get it right.

The step after that is to develop a minimum viable product, which I consider at least on the verge of generating revenue, if not actually profitable. That may or may not take funding or incubator support.

I hope this hasn't been a wasted plea. I guarantee this is not another naive "ideas guy" pitch. This is an extremely detailed and thoroughly analysed concept for a wide open (but very well known and lucrative) market.

Please contact me if you know a developer who is looking for a credible startup to sink his teeth into, or ideally if you are one yourself. I will pay to mitigate your risk.

Cheers,
C

ExperiencedLad

Project description here.

The Corinthian

ExperiencedLad wrote: »

Don't trivialise a conversation. A thorough conversation and I am capable of discerning the person looking for a quick nixer from the kind of person I want. I am also experienced enough to tell the difference between an experienced developer and a "universal programmer" or "rockstar". That experience is hard won.

I'm not trivializing a conversation per say and what you say about being able to assess a developer, if one has the experience to do so, is quite correct. But I wasn't really challanging that.

All I was pointing out is that you are offering payment and, I presume, equity or at least employment in the future venture. However the latter is based on a handshake deal and they're not worth the paper they're not written on. I've come across, either personally or through others, more than one such handshake deal that ended up changing terms once one party got what they wanted and this risk will be a factor in anyone's decision making process.

Of course, if what you're willing to pay up front covers the work on its own, then this shouldn't be an issue, but otherwise you'll probably want to offer more than just a handshake. Just a suggestion.

Please contact me if you know a developer who is looking for a credible startup to sink his teeth into, or ideally if you are one yourself. I will pay to mitigate your risk.

Unfortunately, I'm not based in Ireland and I suspect you're specifically looking for someone local, so I'm probably not the man for you.

Good luck in your search.

ExperiencedLad

The Corinthian wrote: »

I'm not trivializing a conversation per say and what you say about being able to assess a developer, if one has the experience to do so, is quite correct. But I wasn't really challanging that.

All I was pointing out is that you are offering payment and, I presume, equity or at least employment in the future venture. However the latter is based on a handshake deal and they're not worth the paper they're not written on. I've come across, either personally or through others, more than one such handshake deal that ended up changing terms once one party got what they wanted and this risk will be a factor in anyone's decision making process.

Of course, if what you're willing to pay up front covers the work on its own, then this shouldn't be an issue, but otherwise you'll probably want to offer more than just a handshake. Just a suggestion.

Unfortunately, I'm not based in Ireland and I suspect you're specifically looking for someone local, so I'm probably not the man for you.

Good luck in your search.

I agree with you totally. I may end up paying someone who goes elsewhere when the project is complete. But if someone does it well then at least I have a well documented scalable application to work off in the future, that another dev can work on without too much trouble. And if the person does move on with the project then that is optimal... but of course, I wouldn't be offering a stake in the beginning so I myself would be free to take the application to another developer if we didn't work well together...

So I think paying between €500-1500 for the first phase with a common understanding of each others interests is the correct course to take.

I still have a lot of work to do on the mock-ups and the specification (in my spare time after work) before I am ready to show a developer, but if you are interested PM me. Distance is never a deal-breaker in software...

Nuttzz

Without trying to sound fun but wouldnt the chrome to phone plugin do most of what you are looking for?

ExperiencedLad

Nuttzz wrote: »

Without trying to sound fun but wouldnt the chrome to phone plugin do most of what you are looking for?

No, product has to be built on top of application.

Axwell

You will have more luck if you post it here - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055234599

Also just a single post with the spec and some details - its not a thread for comments.

Closing this one down.

Regards,

Axwell