Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Super-di-dooper-thread 12/13

Cypher_sounds

2ndcoming wrote: »

The amount of people who are deluded about Fellaini's role is unbelievable. Although with Baines in you would have someone to lump them up to him.

Seriously, whatever about Baines, United don't need many players, and Fellaini is definitely not one of them.

I meant at least we got a DM as in David Moyes....not Fellaini;)

IamtheWalrus

Strongbow10 wrote: »

what is general consensus amongst United fans about Ferguson's achievements in Europe?

With respect to time and resources, moderate success. I think there are more astute European coaches out there. The blame for the capitulation after the red card v Madrid lies at Fergie's door I'm afraid.

Dancor

Strongbow10 wrote: »

what is general consensus amongst United fans about Ferguson's achievements in Europe?

When Barcelona are finally exposed as drug cheats he will have the two lost titles added to his record and it will look better................................. :pac:

Doctor Strange

Strongbow10 wrote: »

what is general consensus amongst United fans about Ferguson's achievements in Europe?

2 cups and 2 other finals in 20 years is not bad going.

Justin10

Should have done better imo. Sometimes I felt he was too defensive, and of course we sometimes just where not near good enough.

The madrid game andthe Ronaldo master-class at Old Trafford comes to mind.

stesaurus

Strongbow10 wrote: »

what is general consensus amongst United fans about Ferguson's achievements in Europe?

Well I think it's only fair to judge him over the last maybe 10-15 years if comparing him against his current peers. Europe was very different when Fergie started and I have no doubt if we still had the old European Cup setup United, Bayern and Barcelona would have quite a few more cups each.

He's been lucky at times and unlucky in other years. 2 is a pretty decent return considering the quality of the teams involved now. I'm happy enough and up until recently we were making the quarters every year. There's not many other teams with that kind of record.

I just wish we had of kicked on like Bayern are doing this season. Buying big and buying from a position of strength. If we had of done after 99 of 08 I think we could have had more.

pitythefool

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

With respect to time and resources, moderate success. I think there are more astute European coaches out there. The blame for the capitulation after the red card v Madrid lies at Fergie's door I'm afraid.

I didnt notice any capitulation

The team did not stop trying and also not many teams would beat Madrid with 10 men

stesaurus

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

The blame for the capitulation after the red card v Madrid lies at Fergie's door I'm afraid.

Hindsight's a great thing but when have we ever done a 'batten the hatches' type job? We've never played like that under Fergie, so what makes you think we could have been able to do it against Madrid?
The red card cost us the tie, no doubt about it. Was it still winnable with 10 men? yes, but it was always going to be unlikely after that.

onemorechance

Strongbow10 wrote: »

what is general consensus amongst United fans about Ferguson's achievements in Europe?

Best manager ever!

Any fan who was lucky enough to witness this era should be grateful for the unprecedented era of success AND entertainment that SAF brought into their lives!

Ní bheidh a leithéid arís ann!

onemorechance

Unforgettable _ Fire wrote: »

2 cups and 2 other finals in 20 years is not bad going.

Why are you restricting it to 20 years?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rc-l2dAdw-o

Nolars

http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11671/8703450/David-Moyes-claims-he-did-not-expect-to-leave-Everton-for-Manchester-United

24 minute press conference from moyes

NotorietyH

Interesting article in the Guardian on Moyes' tactics.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2013/may/09/david-moyes-tactics-manchester-united-everton

Backstreet Moyes

Piece from Di Canio would have love to seen him in a United shirt.

http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11667/8702683/Paolo-Di-Canio-proud-Sir-Alex-Ferguson-tried-to-sign-him-for-Manchester-United

Kharrell

s.welstead wrote: »

I came around pretty quickly to Moyes as manager. I still think there are better candidates around but he's a good manager and can do a good job.
I'm actually pretty excited about the future now. I've said before that I thought Fergie could do with a new number 2 in order to challenge his ideas and push us on again. Now we'll actually get a new manager and probably a number 2 also. I think that's a good thing in some ways.
A fresh man at the helm with new ideas won't allow the kind of bs we've seen from Valencia, Giggs and Evra (last season). He won't be loyal to players based on past performances. Vice versa it will hopefully give players like Nani and some of the younger players a fresh chance to impress. I'd even go as far as to say Kagawa as Fergie has not used him enough this season, he's easily our most technical player and something we've always missed in the final 3rd.
We've got a fantastic squad and with maybe 2-3 good signings and a few players moved on or marginalised we can easily be challenging on all fronts next season.

I was the same, we could get someone better in but I feel someone better would change to much and it looks like United don't want to change the way the club is run. You look at what happens when a new manager comes in and they change the back room staff, the way the team plays and it takes a few seasons before that manager has settled in with his own team etc. United don't have that kind of time and Moyes will hopefully be a continuation of Fergie with one or two changes. I hope one of those changes is a new midfielder or two, Gundogan would be a blessing to me but I can't see us getting him.

Like you said, I hope Moyes realises what he has in Kagawa because he such an exceptional talent and I feel he has somewhat been wasted by Fergie this year. Also hope Powell gets more game time and the likes of Valencia, Evra, Nani, Young etc step up their efforts because they have been quite disappointing this season.

Next season should be quite exciting

FlawedGenius

http://gyazo.com/f50453b0f55fb519c2e43d96f3e60a61

My post in this thread a year ago

pitythefool

Kharrell wrote: »

I was the same, we could get someone better in but I feel someone better would change to much and it looks like United don't want to change the way the club is run. You look at what happens when a new manager comes in and they change the back room staff, the way the team plays and it takes a few seasons before that manager has settled in with his own team etc. United don't have that kind of time and Moyes will hopefully be a continuation of Fergie with one or two changes. I hope one of those changes is a new midfielder or two, Gundogan would be a blessing to me but I can't see us getting him.

Like you said, I hope Moyes realises what he has in Kagawa because he such an exceptional talent and I feel he has somewhat been wasted by Fergie this year. Also hope Powell gets more game time and the likes of Valencia, Evra, Nani, Young etc step up their efforts because they have been quite disappointing this season.

Next season should be quite exciting

Young players thrive under Moyes, he will turn Powell in to a force imo

Kharrell

FlawedGenius wrote: »

http://gyazo.com/f50453b0f55fb519c2e43d96f3e60a61

My post in this thread a year ago

This is one of my fears, players who would chose United to work under Fergie will now look at Moyes and think who? We have been linked with Lewandowski, Falcao, Gundogan etc and I feel we may lose out simply because they will be unsure of working under Moyes. Fergie still being around may help us attract the top players and they will still be joining United. The thing about bringing in a Mourinho type manager is they will change the way United play, bring in a whole host of Spanish or Portuguese players and disregard the youth and if you look at what Charlton said, they wanted to bring in someone who understood the way United worked. With Moyes, he won't be afraid to promote the youth and from a Glazer perspective it means not spending to much money.

Plus, can you imagine Pep or Jose working under Ferguson? Pep possibly but certainly not Jose.

ThunbergsAreGo

pitythefool wrote: »

Young players thrive under Moyes, he will turn Powell in to a force imo

Coleman is the only player younger than 25 that has played more than 15 games in the league for everton this year

Kharrell

pitythefool wrote: »

Young players thrive under Moyes, he will turn Powell in to a force imo

I hope he does, I have real high hopes for him. I hope he doesn't send him out on loan, if he does I hope it is to a Premier League club and not a Championship side.

Julez

With our current squad I would be hoping for this type of formation, obviously we are bound to have some players go and some additions, I'm kind of thinking without Rooney too...

---

DDG

---

-Raf----Rio

---

Vidic

---

Evra-

---

Carrick---Anderson

---

---Zaha

---

Kag

---

Nani---

---

RVP

---

Evans, Fabio, Jones and Smalling all good backups (making there way into first team) in defence.

Clev/Anderson getting a shot in the middle, but we will need cover.

Powell getting time in Kagawas spot, Rooney if still around too

Valencia and Young can have wing time too, possibly Welbeck too, but I'd like to maybe see another winger come in, especially if Nani leaves (Bale/Ronaldo ).

RVP, Hernadez, Welbeck up top, Heriquez due to come back too and hopefully Keane.

All in all its actually CM thats most urgent, presuming no one leaves. We are fairly solid everywhere else.

Pro. F

LuckyCharms wrote: »

http://www.forbes.com/sites/bobbymcmahon/2013/02/03/what-is-it-about-david-beckham-that-turns-so-many-brains-to-mush/

http://www.economist.com/node/2502730

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kurtbadenhausen/2012/11/30/david-beckham-departs-mls-after-earning-255-million/

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aTiwaSlOizRM

http://swissramble.blogspot.ie/2011/06/real-madrid-and-financial-fair-play.html

He had a 250m deal with LA galaxy of which 6.5 was his salary which highlights his earning potential for the club.

You have to factor in that Madrid take 50% of their players image rights while contracted to the club

You can also see that it is mentioned multiple times that Madrid were able to renegotiate sponsor contracts early and for substantial rises on the acquisition of Ronaldo and Kaka.

Obviously, the whole situation is not as simple as saying X or Y pay for themselves by shifting loads of Jerseys but the commercial appeal by players like Ronaldo and Beckham is on a global scale and when you consider the % of image rights being taken by madrid, it is totally feasible that these types of players pay for themselves in more ways than 1 , through increasing club brand worldwide, merch sales, image rights cut, increasing fan base and of course through on field success.

You should read the articles you are linking to to support your claim.

The first article (Forbes) outright dismisses the idea that Beckham is very valuable to a team in hard money terms or that his contract was for 250m.

The second article (Economist) is a repeat of the Madrid claims, with no critical analysis.

The third article (Forbes) contradicts your claim that he had a $250m deal with the Galaxy. They say his salary was $6.5m per year and that in total over five years he earned $50m additional from his cut of the club's revenue. They also say that he earned $46m that year through his own endorsements (and they extrapolate that out to $255m total earnings over the five years), but that is an estimate. When you follow the links through to their articles (list of highest paid athletes) they provide no sources for their estimate. I've had experience with Forbes lists before, when looking into United finances, and they are very hit and miss. This one doesn't provide any sources for their numbers.

The fourth article (Bloomberg) provides no evidence for its claims other than reporting what Real Madrid have said. And it gives no hard figures for the supposed increase in sponsorship money.

The last article (Swissramble) is one that finally does give some hard figures. The author says that Madrid renegotiated to increase their Adidas contract and extend the Bwin contract. Those increases still don't look like covering the Ronaldo fee plus wages. And from what I can see Manchester United's sponsorship revenue still outstrips them. The idea that shirt sales help cover the costs of these players is again dismissed. The author goes on to talk about Galacticos increasing club income through image rights but has no numbers on this. He also talks about using stars to increase overseas TV deals, but this is aspirational with a quote of what Madrid are hoping to do, no bottom line of what they have done. The author himself says the TV revenue idea remains to be proven.

From reading those articles it looks like it's a possibility that Ronaldo could cover his astronomical transfer fee and wages at Madrid, but not a very convincing possibility. And when you realise that much of the talk lacks hard numbers to back it up and that Perez has talked a lot of bollocks before about how shirt sales were covering player costs it really shouldn't be held up as anything like the certainty that it is sometimes portrayed as.

LuckyCharms wrote: »

They would have been but the marketing value they bring cannot be ignored.

It can be ignored because it is completely irrelevant to the conversation. Do you have any evidence of how much Chico and Kag's images are being leveraged for? The fact that they look like they could be marketable players doesn't lend any weight to the argument that the astronomical fees for Ronaldo could be covered with marketing revenue.

Kharrell

Julez wrote: »

With our current squad I would be hoping for this type of formation, obviously we are bound to have some players go and some additions, I'm kind of thinking without Rooney too...

---

DDG

---

-Raf----Rio

---

Vidic

---

Evra-

---

Carrick---Anderson

---

---Zaha

---

Kag

---

Nani---

---

RVP

---

Evans, Fabio, Jones and Smalling all good backups (making there way into first team) in defence.

Clev/Anderson getting a shot in the middle, but we will need cover.

Powell getting time in Kagawas spot, Rooney if still around too

Valencia and Young can have wing time too, possibly Welbeck too, but I'd like to maybe see another winger come in, especially if Nani leaves (Bale/Ronaldo ).

RVP, Hernadez, Welbeck up top, Heriquez due to come back too and hopefully Keane.

All in all its actually CM thats most urgent, presuming no one leaves. We are fairly solid everywhere else.

Fairly solid team but I would swap Anderson with a new signing, Gundogan would be ideal. If we don't sign anyone then Cleverley can play next to Carrick and from time to time Powell.

Zaha shouldn't start to many games next season, first season in the Premier League so will probably tire out or may lose form. If we do sign Ronaldo, he won't want to play out on the wing. I can't think of any out and out wingers who we should sign at the moment but I do think another one is needed, possibly one that is actually left footed and I'm not talking about Bale.

keane2097

People on here have seriously low opinions of soccer players. Do people not think anyone will want to join Barcelona now that Tito is in charge?

Apparently Fernando Torres wouldn't have known who Kenny Dalgleish was. Like saying Rooney wouldn't sign for Madrid if Butragueño was the new manager.

Al Capwned

Anyone who thinks top players actually anyone who thinks that anyone with a passing interest in football does not know who David Moyes is, is really stretching it I reckon..

Munster Magic

Munster Magic wrote: »

Not my article but worth a read

http://backpagefootball.com/the-ten-defining-moments-of-alex-fergusons-manchester-united-career/57852/

Article is the top 10 defining moments of Sir Alex Ferguson's Manchester United career

Feel free to criticize or come up with your own

Rayne Wooney

What is the debt now? £336 million is what a bit of searching has turned up.

With the £160 million coming in from AON and the new shirt deal coming up would it not be better just to clear all of the debt?

I don't understand why they don't start getting that debt down.

POSSY

Nolars wrote: »

http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11671/8703450/David-Moyes-claims-he-did-not-expect-to-leave-Everton-for-Manchester-United

24 minute press conference from moyes

I can remember it as if it was tomorrow.

Red Crow

I don't see how Moyes is a sign of prudence from the Glazers. Are people seriously suggesting that he's been brought in to spend less and develop more? That's a conspiracy theory at worst. Also I'd be fairly confident that a lot of players know who Moyes is. I don't think it'll turn off any players. Hazard signed for Chelsea under a powerless manager. Suarez signed for Liverpool when Dalglish took over.

Julez

Eli Manning wrote: »

Hazard signed for Chelsea under a powerless manager.

Did they even have a manager at the time?

POSSY

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

What is the debt now? £336 million is what a bit of searching has turned up.

With the £160 million coming in from AON and the new shirt deal coming up would it not be better just to clear all of the debt?

I don't understand why they don't start getting that debt down.

Because the interest payments on the debt are more than manageable. Instead, they can use the money to pay themselves and also put revenue back into the club. In terms of turnover, the debt really is **** all. Its a 2 billion pound company with 336m of debt, so a debt to value ratio of about 16.5%, hardly something to panic over.

tupac_healy

Enjoyed my weeks holiday for saying the truth about a certain un-named player.....


Anyway, Moyes is the bettee long term bet for us, sure Jose would have made the transfer market more interesting but he is a short term manager, I think David is here for the long haul

tupac_healy

POSSY wrote: »

Because the interest payments on the debt are more than manageable. Instead, they can use the money to pay themselves and also put revenue back into the club. In terms of turnover, the debt really is **** all. Its a 2 billion pound company with 336m of debt, so a debt to value ratio of about 16.5%, hardly something to panic over.

True but would it not be better if it were 0% debt?

Not a panic, more of an annoyance

onemorechance

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

What is the debt now? £336 million is what a bit of searching has turned up.

With the £160 million coming in from AON and the new shirt deal coming up would it not be better just to clear all of the debt?

I don't understand why they don't start getting that debt down.

They are probably able to make more profit by managing the debt rather than paying it all off.

POSSY

Eli Manning wrote: »

I don't see how Moyes is a sign of prudence from the Glazers. Are people seriously suggesting that he's been brought in to spend less and develop more? That's a conspiracy theory at worst. Also I'd be fairly confident that a lot of players know who Moyes is. I don't think it'll turn off any players. Hazard signed for Chelsea under a powerless manager. Suarez signed for Liverpool when Dalglish took over.

Given a recent article in the FT about Moyes and Everton, and the use of (low level) cybermetrics, it actually makes a bit of sense for someone like Moyes to join them. Furthermore, Ferguson's approach has always been to build a squad to win leagues not one of games, so I think Moyes will be very much in keeping with this approach.


Gutted Ferguson is going, but this is exciting in many ways.

POSSY

tupac_healy wrote: »

True but would it not be better if it were 0% debt?

Not a panic, more of an annoyance

A once of interest payment of 336m on the debt would probably mean no signings this summer, you've to align cash-flow with long term solvency. Paying off all the debt might in the long-term lead to slightly more money to spend each summer, but it would be one hell of a whack to the current cash-flows.

Kerrydude1981

Had to laugh at Strachan here and the story after by Neale Cooper

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=RCQLwsKRPu8#t=838s

Kharrell

Eli Manning wrote: »

I don't see how Moyes is a sign of prudence from the Glazers. Are people seriously suggesting that he's been brought in to spend less and develop more? That's a conspiracy theory at worst. Also I'd be fairly confident that a lot of players know who Moyes is. I don't think it'll turn off any players. Hazard signed for Chelsea under a powerless manager. Suarez signed for Liverpool when Dalglish took over.

He was brought in to continue where Fergie left off. Fergie, as we know, developed youth as well as spent money but not like other managers do. A new manager would probably want to bring 4/5 players in. Can't see Moyes doing that and if he does, it won't be 5 huge signings. Last year we signed Kagawa, Powell, Buttner, Van Persie and Henriquez (I may have missed someone). Two big signings and three lesser signings. Moyes is more likely to do the same.

Not to mention Jose or another manager would want to bring in his own back room staff which would mean getting rid of the ones we have now. Moyes may bring in a few but again, can't see him overhauling everyone.

Not saying the Glazers are going to stop Moyes spending but they must surely be happier with him than Jose.

A lot of players know who Moyes is, the question is how many world class players would jump at the chance to play for him? Hazard may have signed for a managerless Chelsea but they probably offered him a bit more money (not saying he only went for the money).

IamtheWalrus

Kharrell wrote: »

Hazard may have signed for a managerless Chelsea but they probably offered him a bit more money (not saying he only went for the money).

He did.

IvySlayer

I'm gonna be a crying mess on Sunday...:(

Nuri Sahin

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

He did.

Yeah, nothing to do with them winning the Champions League or being a consistent force in the EPL at all. Nope.

keane2097

Nuri Sahin wrote: »

Yeah, nothing to do with them winning the Champions League or being a consistent force in the EPL at all. Nope.

Players only ever go to United for noble reasons and only ever go anywhere else for money.

Mr Whirly

Anyone that thinks Moyes will develop youth is a bit misguided. He never gave Rodwell a proper shot when he was at Everton unless he had to due to injuries. He has done the same thing with Barkley this season.

Kharrell

Mr Whirly wrote: »

Anyone that thinks Moyes will develop youth is a bit misguided. He never gave Rodwell a proper shot when he was at Everton unless he had to due to injuries. He has done the same thing with Barkley this season.

Rodwell was injured a lot, Barkley suffered a horrific leg break and is also injured a lot. Not to mention Neville, Gibson and Fellaini play well in the middle so difficult to break through. He had no problem bringing Rooney in and playing him. Coleman plays a lot under Moyes and so did Anichibe so it's not like Moyes doesn't develop youngsters

Gorilla Rising

Mr Whirly wrote: »

Anyone that thinks Moyes will develop youth is a bit misguided. He never gave Rodwell a proper shot when he was at Everton unless he had to due to injuries. He has done the same thing with Barkley this season.

Anymore examples? That's only two players in 11 years.

Anichebe was shocking, but has proved well under Moyse recently. Baines is an obvious one, Osman, Cahill, Arteta, Fellaini, Pienaar, Jagielka, Phil Neville (to a lesser extent) all improved under Moyes.

And you can't exactly say any of them were the finished article when they arrived at Everton. Most of them needed improving to adapt to the Premier League.

Obviously he's made some rubbish signings too, but...that's part of the football and given his budget he probably settled for a lot of those players at the time.

Mr Whirly

Kharrell wrote: »

Rodwell was injured a lot, Barkley suffered a horrific leg break and is also injured a lot. Not to mention Neville, Gibson and Fellaini play well in the middle so difficult to break through. He had no problem bringing Rooney in and playing him. Coleman plays a lot under Moyes and so did Anichibe so it's not like Moyes doesn't develop youngsters

Rodwell was injured a lot but there was times he wasn't and only came on at the end of games. Gibson wasn't there for most of the time Rodwell was.

Coleman was shoehorned into the the right wing position at a time when the squad was very very thin. He was dropped when other players were brought in and only started playing regularly in his preferred position due to an injury. He's also 24.

Anichebe has had 25 (his most) appearances this season at the age of 25.

Rooney was a special case.

Red Crow

Mr Whirly wrote: »

Anyone that thinks Moyes will develop youth is a bit misguided. He never gave Rodwell a proper shot when he was at Everton unless he had to due to injuries. He has done the same thing with Barkley this season.

Dogmatic.

Kharrell

Mr Whirly wrote: »

Rodwell was injured a lot but there was times he wasn't and only came on at the end of games. Gibson wasn't there for most of the time Rodwell was.

Coleman was shoehorned into the the right wing position at a time when the squad was very very thin. He was dropped when other players were brought in and only started playing regularly in his preferred position due to an injury. He's also 24.

Anichebe has had 25 (his most) appearances this season at the age of 25.

Rooney was a special case.

But Rodwell, Anicibhe etc are not special cases so there is no need to play them from the off, especially in a league where once bigger teams find out you have special talent, they snap them up.

Moyes blooded in youngsters well at Everton in my opinion and people are entitled to disagree (most do). The way he handled Rodwell is how most clubs handle their young players, once a game is settled bring on a younger player to give him minutes and time to adapt.

Mr Whirly

False 9 wrote: »

Anymore examples? That's only two players in 11 years.

Anichebe was shocking, but has proved well under Moyse recently. Baines is an obvious one, Osman, Cahill, Arteta, Fellaini, Pienaar, Jagielka, Phil Neville (to a lesser extent) all improved under Moyes.

I was more talking about players that have come up through Everton or were signed very young. All them players were bought in their 20's.

No doubt that he improved all of them and he does get the best from his players but I wouldn't be holding my breath to see any teenagers getting a chance.

Mr Whirly

Kharrell wrote: »

But Rodwell, Anicibhe etc are not special cases so there is no need to play them from the off, especially in a league where once bigger teams find out you have special talent, they snap them up.

Moyes blooded in youngsters well at Everton in my opinion and people are entitled to disagree (most do). The way he handled Rodwell is how most clubs handle their young players, once a game is settled bring on a younger player to give him minutes and time to adapt.

If there was ever a club that needed to blood young players over the last 5 or 6 years it was Everton. He played without a striker for an entire season rather than give Anichebe a go.

This season was the first in a long time where Everton have had a starting 11 playing in position or close to their position.

Kharrell

Mr Whirly wrote: »

If there was ever a club that needed to blood young players over the last 5 or 6 years it was Everton. He played without a striker for an entire season rather than give Anichebe a go.

This season was the first in a long time where Everton have had a starting 11 playing in position or close to their position.

I totally agree that Everton should be doing more to blood in young players but if they aren't good enough what can he do?