Aggressive Border Terrier

Dav21

Hi all,

Looking for some advice our dog. We have a 17 month old female Border Terrier. We have had her since October and have found that she does not socialise well with other dogs (despite coming from a house with 10 or so dogs). When out walking on the lead she is constantly barking and trying to get at most dogs we pass by.

We have been taking her to obedience classes the past few weeks and we have seen a slight improvement in her aggressive behaviour towards other dogs. When walking out on the beach on Friday however we saw something we didn't think she had in her. We had her off the lead playing with a tennis ball etc. She was staying close and responding to us when she was called. However she focused on a small old dog and when she started to run for it there was no getting her back. She bit the other dogs ear and would not let go. We had to prise her jaws off the other dog. She was really clamped on for what seemed like forever while he other dog screamed in pain. (Before this she did approach other larger dogs on the beach and came back to us but obviously then she picked a fight she thought she would win)

She was neutered in January. We have been continuously working on her aggression when out walking by distracting her with treats etc when we pass other dogs. We have seen her aggressive side before on the lead out walking but we thought this was just "lead aggression". We didn't think she would attack another dog unprovoked. I know she is a terrier and these dogs come with a reputation but should she be like this all the time?

Our worry now is; will we ever get this aggression out of her, and will it be safe to have her around young kids (she has never shown aggression towards humans but now we have seen this side to her we may ever rest easy)

Thanks for taking the time to read this.

DBB

First of all, you must prevent her from being able to inflict injuries on other dogs again: until you've done a lot more work with her, she should never be let off-lead around other dogs.
Giving her treats is better than nothing, but I'd suggest you get some professional help so that you know exactly how to coordinate what to do, when to do it, how to do it etc. Just giving treats alone generally doesn't fulfill the full job: they do an important job, but just trying to dole treats into her when you meet other dogs won't do the full job. I'd be willing to bet, in any case, that when she sees another dog, she's not all that interested in treats any more anyway? In which case, at that moment, they're not doing the job you want them to do.
I would also stop going to classes just for the moment: you need to do some one-to-one sessions with a properly qualified behaviourist in order to get your dog under control before "flooding" her in classes full of other dogs. She doesn't want to be around other dogs, and so, making her have to be in a room full of them is only doing more harm right now. You should get to the stage where she can go to classes again, just not yet.
Just to add, you'll never get aggression "out" of any dog, any more than you'll get happiness out of them. It's an emotional reaction that all living creatures are capable of in any given set of circumstances. But she can learn to control her aggression, chances are she's actually fearful of other dogs! I know you may find this hard to believe, but terriers tend to deal with fear by getting angry. However, how to go about lowering her aggressive response is really important, there are right ways and wrong ways, ethical ways and cruel ways, and for this reason, you need to be really careful who you get to help you.
A home visit from a good behaviourist will also give you a better idea of what she's like around children: however, all other things being equal, aggression towards other dogs is not an indicator of aggression towards children, or any other humans.
So, invest your training-class budget into a home visit with a good behaviourist: if you let us know what part of the country you're in, we may be able to send you in the right direction!

Knine

Where did you get your Border Terrier? This breed has a very high working instinct so ideally need a job to do. Some strains have a very high prey drive. Did you do your research before taking her on? If they see something they would like to chase it can be very difficult to recall them. Recall work needs to start at a very young age. How much exercise is she getting?

I reckon she did not attack the other dog out of fear. You must keep her on a lead where there is a possibility of her meeting other small dogs as they have powerful jaws designed to inflict damage on vermin.

Border Terriers are usually very good with children. Do you know any background to this dog?

kylith

Keep working on it, and avoid other dogs for the time being. It will get better, if you work at it. When I first got Tegan she had completely unmanageable fear aggression; as DBB said - when terriers are frightened they often react with aggression, this is something that has been bred into them. After a lot of work, and time, we can pass another dog on the footpath and as long as they don't get too close they worst that happens is she gives them a dirty look, she even has some dog-friends who she's excellent with.

See if you can figure out if she has a 'trigger', then you can work on desensitising her to it. If you can afford a couple of 1-on-1 sessions with a trainer they'll be able to get you off to a flying start.

Knine

Frightened dogs don't run off after other dogs and attack them. BT's can be aggressive with other dogs and often its not out if fear. I show, do trials and dog sports with this breed.

To the OP I also run a Border Terrier page and if you pm me I can give you the details. You can get great advice from experienced Border people on it.

DBB

Knine wrote: »

Frightened dogs don't run off after other dogs and attack them. BT's can be aggressive with other dogs and often its not out if fear. I show, do trials and dog sports with this breed.

With all due respect knine, frightened dogs can and do run after and attack other dogs. It's related to the Approach-Avoid conflict that all frightened dogs go through when confronted with the source of their fear. She doesn't follow through with the larger dogs either, she's choosing who to follow through on. It is perfectly feasible for a scared dog to learn that attacking another dog is a highly effective way of getting rid of them.. everything the op describes sounds like a typical faux-brave terrier. Almost every case of aggression I see between dogs is fear-based, for some reason or another.
In any case, this is why it's important that the op gets someone in to help, because this sort of thing cannot be diagnosed online. No matter what's causing this little dog's aggression, two things still remain: treats will not work on their own, and op must ensure that no other dogs are put in any danger, until the cause of the aggression is understood, and brought under much better control than it is now.

DBB

One other thing to bear in mind, dogs will often attack elderly dogs for no apparent reason. I've seen it time and time again, I think it's linked to the elderly dog moving oddly, smelling odd, and acting strangely perhaps due to sensory loss. Some say it harks back to when old wolves were killed by younger animals as they endangered the safety and efficiency of the pack. I have never seen this theory put to the test scientifically, so for now remains anecdotal.

Knine

With all due respect I know a lot about this particular breed and although they are not a fiery terrier they can be extremely dominant with other small terriers the same sex as themselves. I shall leave it there now as I've given the OP the details they need.

DBB

Whilst I appreciate your expertise with Borders, they're not alone amongst terriers in their "dog-hot" tendencies. But beware the dominance label. In my experience, most terriers who are labelled "dominant" around other dogs actually turn out to be frightened of them, for the same reasons other non-terrier dogs are frightened of them. But the terrier-typical fiery reaction causes misdiagnosis, and a wrongful assumption of dominance, which in turn causes the problem to be treated wrongly.
Which is why the op would be well advised to get the help of a qualified behaviourist.

Knine

Well my experience is of the breed and many other breeds and the correct temperment for a Border Terrier is that they are not fiery with other dogs unlike other terriers. Their original purpose meant they had to get on well with other dogs. A nervous aggressive dog tends to avoid conflict but react with aggression if it can't escape i.e. on a lead.

The OPs dog however went after the other dog and if not separated probably would have killed it. If you have ever been unfortunate enough to see two Borders fight then you would realise they were anything but nervous.

Whispered

DBB wrote: »

One other thing to bear in mind, dogs will often attack elderly dogs for no apparent reason. I've seen it time and time again, I think it's linked to the elderly dog moving oddly, smelling odd, and acting strangely perhaps due to sensory loss. Some say it harks back to when old wolves were killed by younger animals as they endangered the safety and efficiency of the pack. I have never seen this theory put to the test scientifically, so for now remains anecdotal.

Funnily enough, you can see the change in the dogs in the kennel when we walk a very old dog. There is a blind lady who stays there and the other dogs are totally fascinated with her. You can see yourself from a distance, she appears to walk almost mechanically, I can only imagine how confusing it is to other dogs!

With regards to the OP's dog maybe being aggressive through fear, I wouldn't rule it out. Aggression caused by fear can be displayed in both passive and more active ways. I think that the OP would be best of taking advice from a qualified behaviourist on this, considering the risks when dealing with aggression.

boomerang

Speaking from personal experience, a nervous dog can learn that aggressive displays work so well for them in getting other dogs to back off, that they will progress to instantly going for another dog they see,given the opportunity - heading them off at the pass, so to speak. Regardless of breed.


Anyways I don't think it is right to give the OP advice based on speculation.

DBB

Knine wrote: »

Well my experience is of the breed and many other breeds and the correct temperment for a Border Terrier is that they are not fiery with other dogs unlike other terriers.

But this Border is fiery with other dogs... doesn't really matter what the breed standard says when the owner has a problem on their hands, does it?
Look, we all know that Borders aren't *meant* to be dog-hot, my whole point is that this one clearly is, but it's not because she's a Border Terrier. It's for other reasons which are no different to why most other dogs who are dog-aggressive, are dog-aggressive. Her breed may contribute to some extent to the problem, but she is not doing what she's doing because she's a Border Terrier.

Their original purpose meant they had to get on well with other dogs. A nervous aggressive dog tends to avoid conflict but react with aggression if it can't escape i.e. on a lead.

A "nervous aggressive" spaniel, or Labrador, or Setter etc, will generally tend to avoid conflict (there are many exceptions). But a "nervous aggressive" terrier generally won't. They are wired completely differently when it comes to dealing with fear. Like I said above, the Approach-Avoid conflict very often comes into play with scared dogs, and terriers tend to bring the Approach-Avoid conflict to its Nth degree.

The OPs dog however went after the other dog and if not separated probably would have killed it.

:eek: WHOA!
That's a pretty huge assumption to make there! The Border damaged the other dog's ear! She hardly put it into intensive care which, if she had wanted to, she could have. As you know, when a terrier wants to inflict big damage, they can do it in a flash. If she had wanted to kill this dog, it wold not have been its ear she grabbed. Please don't scare the OP so needlessly like this!

If you have ever been unfortunate enough to see two Borders fight then you would realise they were anything but nervous.

In fairness, two fighting dogs never appear nervous. Once the fight actually starts and both dogs engage, there's no room for nervousness. Dog-dog aggression as described by the OP is more designed to avoid a fight, as the lunging and barking are all done in an attempt to get rid of the other dog, not invite it for a fight. This Border has only attacked one dog, an old dog, which may have been for reasons I explained above: I have come across many incidents of out-of-proportion aggression towards old dogs, the latest one was only a few days ago: no terriers were involved.
Although deeply unpleasant for everyone concerned, this Border has so far not demonstrated any desire to do huge, life-threatening physical harm to another dog. Much of it is bluff with her, as it is with many terriers, indeed with many aggressive dogs.
Borders are just as subject to the effects of improper socialisation and an impoverished early environment as any other dog is: the prime cause of later dog-dog aggression. The breed standard of all dogs says they should have x, y and z qualities. But let's not forget that these qualities are heavily influenced by nurture: it doesn't matter what breed the dog is, if it's not raised properly around other dogs, it's going to have problems with them later in life. This goes for all breeds.

Knine

Bluff? seriously did you read what the OP said? they found it very difficult to separate the dogs. Unfortunately I know of quite a few who did not get separated in time.

This problem is not that uncommon with terriers and I have given the OP the information they need. The experienced terrier people who are not know it alls and actully know what they are talking about will be able to help.

My opinion and I might add is based on years of experience with these breeds is just as valid as yours.

boomerang

I've had to break up many a scuffle between dogs and 99.9 times out of a hundred it was just handbags at dawn stuff - scruffing and pinning each other. No damage done except for a lot of drool on each other. But even those "fights" are difficult to break up if you've never done it before and you're afraid of getting hurt yourself. On the few occasions where one dog did mean business, the damage was done in seconds.

I wouldn't be reading anything into the fact that the OP found it difficult to separate the dogs.

OP Please heed DBB's advice.

DBB

Knine wrote: »

Bluff? seriously did you read what the OP said? they found it very difficult to separate the dogs. Unfortunately I know of quite a few who did not get separated in time.

Yes I read the post, thanks. I was referring to all of the other incidents the OP described. I think it went as a given that an actual full-on attack can hardly be called a "bluff". Grabbing an ear is hardly a full-on attack, in fairness. Yet you interpret as meaning the OP has a dog-killer on their hands.

This problem is not that uncommon with terriers and I have given the OP the information they need. The experienced terrier people who are not know it alls and actully know what they are talking about will be able to help.

I take it this is directed at me? If you have a problem with me, knine, bring it to PM and say it straight to me. There is absolutely no need to stoop to this condescending, patronising style of posting, it just comes across as catty and underhand. Bang out of order.
I can't even begin to tell you how wrong you are in insinuating that I don't have terrier experience. As it happens, I have more specific terrier experience than most others in this country. It is possible for people not involved in your show world to have just as much, if not more experience than you have, hard as that may be for you to believe.
Know-it-all? Really? A cheap shot always delivered by people who are called out on giving out information that is not correct.

My opinion and I might add is based on years of experience with these breeds is just as valid as yours.

Never once did I say otherwise. But when anyone posts stuff that's just not true, I will pull them up on it. People who realise they've been called out often resort to old chestnuts such as turning threads into an "I know more than you" competition. Sheesh.