So is it cruel to cut off the fox's tail *after* you've shot it?

Grizzly 45

Could be the only way,as it is some jump and they were just bumping along for the last few years.Lets see what they can do with it,make sure now somone gets slugged with a placard...Plento of "Compo" there now!!:D:D:D

LATER

Yup proably...Two of their oldest supporters/founder members have gone to the eternal protest rally outside Satan's hunt kennel in the centre of the Earth in the last two years.
So that proably explains the new found wealth.

yubabill1

Had to reluctantly go away for the afternoon, but well done to the guys taking the flak today.

Just to say, i am old enough to have been fully licensed for several years when John Fitzgerald was in the news, getting arrested.

I was also shocked, like most of the country, when the meeting on bachelor's walk was to be introduced to the Loyalist bomb maker.

I wrote to several papers citing the 2002/03 conviction and jailing of one John Tierney.

These things are very real in my mind.

Would also like to observe that this Michelle lady is not only sympathetic to the animal rights side, but also naive enough not to know they are using her as a vehicle. That's why she is a glorified blogger and not working in a hard copy paper.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Nothing to say a counter suite couldnt be filed,for loss of earnigs,reputation,etc ,etc.And the courts are not going to look favourably on "vexatious" suites either.

No, but the legal industry is in the middle of the worst recession it has ever seen in its entire history in Ireland because of the collapse of the building sector and the work it generated; so finding a legal team who'll take on such cases would be no hardship. And once the case is on, you're losing money (even if you win, you don't get all the costs back, don't forget).
Honest Grizz, I'd rather spend the money on new ranges.

It isnt,and it isnt the point either.. Call yourself a journalist,you would have to have written ,published and sold or made a livleyhood out of your work.

But that's my point - you don't have to have done that to call youself a journalist. I could call myself that and so could you, and there would be little legal avenue available to anyone to prevent that. That's what I mean by the term being unprotected. And if you think it's annoying, try hearing how the word engineer gets abused when you spent a few years earning the title yourself

Indeed,hopefully his "good judgement" would lead him one day into perdition.:)

One could hope, but I suspect the amount of damage done by the time the problem solved itself would be excessive

Grizzly 45

But that's my point - you don't have to have done that to call youself a journalist. I could call myself that and so could you, and there would be little legal avenue available to anyone to prevent that. That's what I mean by the term being unprotected. And if you think it's annoying, try hearing how the word engineer gets abused when you spent a few years earning the title yourself

But then how seriously will anyone take you too???A "journalist" who writes letters to the editor on a variety of topics is hardly very creditable now as a journalist is he? Even in this day of blogs,Ezines,etc..I cant find one article written by him.As "much as an "Engineer" who couldnt engineer somthing that works..Proof is in the pudding..Might as well call yourself Most high Poobah,and cheif handbag of Callan for all seriousness those titles would hold.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

But then how seriously will anyone take you too?

Oh, not at all, but that was a given -- the point was the whole "he's not a real journalist" point, and that legally there's no such thing.

yubabill1

Some "journalist".

His arguments can't even hold water in the "Dog Axe" story comments,

which should be a bang-to-rights for "anti cruelty" campaigners.

One croney wants to start "a protest or something"

How lame, how absolutely bankrupt.

yubabill1

from sparks in ICABS Watch today

John Fitzgerald attempts to link fieldsports to a violent attack on a dog with an axe:

Quote:
It’s difficult to get through the message that type of activity is wrong when wee have people calling thjemselves “sportsmen” terrorising, tormenting, and cruelly killing animals for fun…some bloodsports are banned but others are permitted by law.
edit: reported as defamatory to thejournal.ie, removed.

Didn't see that one, must have come in after it was removed.
Effect was to make John Fitzgerald look victimised in the posts that remained.....until his atavistic behaviour showed through.

Hunterbiker

JF has wound his neck in on the axe attack on dog story. Certainly his comments, in reply to others, are of a much more general nature and don' t attempt to link the story to anything( like he was doing previously).

I think he's been given something to think about today in some of the responses he's had. It won't change or stop him but it's made him change tactics which must be a good thing.

yubabill1

Hunterbiker wrote: »

JF has wound his neck in on the axe attack on dog story. Certainly his comments, in reply to others, are of a much more general nature and don' t attempt to link the story to anything( like he was doing previously).

I think he's been given something to think about today in some of the responses he's had. It won't change or stop him but it's made him change tactics which must be a good thing.

Now compare the comments on this dog axe story with those on Taylor the lurcher, rehomed last week after having his throat cut.

Hope the journalist spots the difference when the antis gather (not that they didn't try in the (heartwarming) Taylor posts)

Sparks

http://www.thejournal.ie/cattle-live-export-libya-801035-Feb2013/#comment-955828

Sometimes I wonder if these extremists actually understand what it is that they're openly calling for in public?

fathersymes

Sparks wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/cattle-live-export-libya-801035-Feb2013/#comment-955828

Sometimes I wonder if these extremists actually understand what it is that they're openly calling for in public?

Delusion is the disorder, they seem to be all vegans who feel animals are sometimes superior to human beings. To them its synonymous with a boat load of Irish children being deported to Libya to be enslaved or slaughtered.

Grizzly 45

Hunterbiker wrote: »

I think he's been given something to think about today in some of the responses he's had. It won't change or stop him but it's made him change tactics which must be a good thing.

He'll crawl under his rock for awhile and then come back with the next animal rights story and start off again on the same tactic.

The way I see the antis here.
Like a boil on ones rear end.Annoying, but you can get to live with it until it is ripe enough to be lanced.:P

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

He'll crawl under his rock for awhile and then come back with the next animal rights story and start off again on the same tactic.

I don't think you'll ever change his mind.
The attitude of the people who publish his letters and who accept his bullying however, that might be changeable.

yubabill1

Editor sunday independent

I am dismayed and seriously concerned at the bullying tactics currently in use by animal extremists here. Many of these people are or have been involved in illegal activity of varying degrees and some are promoting intimidation of private individuals on the web:

http://www.animalliberationfront.com/ALFront/Actions-Ireland/BitebackReports2008.htm

Being a public figure, Paolo Nutini may be somewhat inured to pressure groups and probably lost little sleep when bombarded by an orchestrated campaign of twitter intimidation, by a small number of activists purporting to represent the Irish public. In truth, the Irish public are mostly equivocal about fox hunting, also.

As these people are planning a candlelight vigil against cattle exports to Libya, I hate to think what they have in mind for the Nutini bullying article’s reporter, Niamh Horan, who was promoting the consumption of horse in another article the same day.

Sincerely

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

I don't think you'll ever change his mind.
The attitude of the people who publish his letters and who accept his bullying however, that might be changeable.

Change his mind..Doubt even the Almighty could do a road to Damascus job on him.:D
The second group most definately.:)

Sparks

I was thinking about the animal rights extremists and their concern for the cattle we ship to Libya, and I think I've come up with a simple, legal and peaceful method which every farmer in Ireland would support completely and immediately...

yubabill1

Sparks wrote: »

I was thinking about the animal rights extremists and their concern for the cattle we ship to Libya, and I think I've come up with a simple, legal and peaceful method which every farmer in Ireland would support completely and immediately...

+1
Missed all this yesterday

Sparks

We seem to have hit Godwins law rather early there.

Cass

Sweet baby Jesus.

How can these extremists compare the slaughter of millions of Jews to cattle being shipped. That is sickening, beyond logical, and an insult to the persecution suffered by the people involved.:mad:

Truly sickening.

Hunterbiker

That is shocking

Grizzly 45

And VERY ILLEGAL!! The German federal court banned it because of its offensive nature.. PETA went over to the courts of human rights in Brussels and lost their right to their " holocaust on your plate campaign." The ECHR upheld that it was grossly offensive to make comparisons between factory farming and the genocide of +/- 6 million people.
As we dont have any anti Nazism laws here in Ireland,they can get away with showing or saying it here.:mad:

JCJCJC

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

And VERY ILLEGAL!! The German federal court banned it because of its offensive nature.. PETA went over to the courts of human rights in Brussels and lost their right to their " holocaust on your plate campaign." The ECHR upheld that it was grossly offensive to make comparisons between factory farming and the genocide of +/- 6 million people.
As we dont have any anti Nazism laws here in Ireland,they can get away with showing or saying it here.:mad:

If the ECtHR made a finding it is binding throughout the EU. Since the Lisbon Treaty, human rights has had a stronger position in EU law than previously. The European Charter of Human Rights is now an integral part of the European Treaty and can be pleaded in any court in the EU with the same strength as any aspect of EU law.

yubabill1

This was my second (more moderate) attempt in today's indo:

See John Fitzgerald's letter reported by Sparks in today's ICABS Watch

John Fitzgerald (CACS) in todays Independent:

Quote:
...
Carted stag hunting was banned in 2010. Yet rumours have abounded for months that the activity continues on a small scale in parts of Meath and north Co Dublin.

Anyone with knowledge of illegal stag hunting should contact the gardai or the National Parks and Wildlife Service. The Wildlife Amendment Act 2010 states that "a person who hunts deer with two or more dogs shall be guilty of an offence".

...


"I think the Gardai have better things to be doing in this financial climate rather than acting on hearsay from the Campaigns Director of the Irish Hunt Saboteurs, who has been looking at a painting."

Grizzly 45

yubabill1 wrote: »

This was my second (more moderate) attempt in today's indo:


...


"I think the Gardai have better things to be doing in this financial climate rather than acting on hearsay from the Campaigns Director of the Irish Hunt Saboteurs, who has been looking at a painting."

Guys... That statement is plain WRONG!!! John Tierney is the PRO/campaigns director of the IHS...If we keep calling people who are not what they are,when the other party has signed themselves as such in plenty of letters to the editor in our national press we are going to be [1] looking at a libel case where even the defence of innocent libel wont work.[2] Damage the cause as it will look like we cant read or pay attention to our own research.

FFR
The line up is as follows;
Aideen Yourell..
Cheif spokesmanwoman and chairmanwoman of ICABS

John Fitzgerald
PRO,chairman,board and everything else of of CACS

John Tierney
PRO [of or was of late] of IHS,WHS,DHS, as well as some concerned cattle export group in Waterford.He is also campaigns director of the above abbreviated groups too.

Bernie Wright
PRO[and near enough everything else] of DHS,IHS,AFAR ,GAN, etc,etc,etc.

John Carmody,
PRO of ARAN[and male stripper act at ARAN demos].

There is no doubt collusion and interchange of ideas and personel of the 80 or so membership of these " Peoples Front of Judea" type groups.
But it would be better methinks to call them by their titles in any letters to the press??

yubabill1

thanks for that Grizzly 45.

Moderator let me add "extremist" into first comment

have edited comment to

"I think the Gardai have better things to be doing in this financial climate rather than acting on hearsay from an extremist member of Campaign Against Cruel Sports, who has been looking at a painting."

Can we have a thread for letters that we write?

fathersymes

Thanks for that Grizzly, I'm considering putting together a Wordpress Site with the intentions of being a central repository for all info on the ANTI's, information on these individuals, somewhere to point journalists to and to generally inform the general public.

What are your thoughts?

Grizzly 45

Long over due FatherSymes.Good man to do it as well!!:D
PM me and let me know what I can help with.;)

fathersymes

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Long over due FatherSymes.Good man to do it as well!!:D
PM me and let me know what I can help with.;)

Great stuff, will get to work on design/layout, will need some help with content then.

Troubling me recently is how misguided donations are ending up in the loonies coffers, depriving those who do good animal welfare work.

Sparks

fathersymes wrote: »

Thanks for that Grizzly, I'm considering putting together a Wordpress Site with the intentions of being a central repository for all info on the ANTI's, information on these individuals, somewhere to point journalists to and to generally inform the general public.
What are your thoughts?

Do you mean a wordpress.com blog? If so, review their T&Cs carefully:

Automattic may terminate your access to all or any part of the Website at any time, with or without cause, with or without notice, effective immediately.

Little things like that are why we started the ICABS Watch sticky thread in here instead of on a seperate site.

If you have your own servers and you're confident you're protected by the legal system of the jurisdiction they're in (and honestly, that's a mess I couldn't even come close to having my head around), then that's another story. Though I don't understand what's wrong with the ICABS Watch thread as a central reference point myself (but hey, I'm biased, I figure we've already gone to the trouble of setting it up and surviving the initial shoutiness, why do that again somewhere else?).

fathersymes

Sparks wrote: »

Do you mean a wordpress.com blog? If so, review their T&Cs carefully:


Little things like that are why we started the ICABS Watch sticky thread in here instead of on a seperate site.

Regarding the hosting I don't mind paying for a domain and virtual server if there is a risk of wordpress.com removing something they don't like.

The ICABS thread you refer to is fine and I'm not attempting to take away from that, I'm talking about something a bit more extensive which would include:

1. Detailed information on Anti Organisations and their prominent figures
2. Historical data on Anti individuals illegal activities
3. Educate and inform the public of the reality behind these Anti's activities
4. Provide attack strategies for those who wish to letter write etc.

All I'm saying is that the Anti's have their sites, we don't, well not in a structured website/blog form, simply a dedicated "Truth behind the Animal Rights Extremists" vehicle.

yubabill1

How about another Sticky to do this?

fathersymes

yubabill1 wrote: »

How about another Sticky to do this?

With the envisaged amount of content and from a usability perspective I don't think a forum/thread structure would be suitable, we'd need multiple stickies to separate different categories and considering the target audience is the general public and the media who are more likely to perceive the bias of a dedicated hunting forum attempting to discredit the nice people who campaign for the poor widdle fluffy animals.

Sparks

It does sound like what you want isn't a wordpress site though, and more a wiki.
I wonder what'd happen if you put the entries in wikipedia....

johnreck

im a little lost at this point.
but interested.

Sparks

johnreck wrote: »

im a little lost at this point.
but interested.

Basicly, should it look like a newsfeed like the ICABS watch thread or AccurateShooter's Daily Bulletin? Or should it look like a reference site like Wikipedia or even be wikipedia itself, just expanding on existing entries?

fathersymes

Sparks wrote: »

Basicly, should it look like a newsfeed like the ICABS watch thread or AccurateShooter's Daily Bulletin? Or should it look like a reference site like Wikipedia or even be wikipedia itself, just expanding on existing entries?

Yep, most definitely on the accurateshooter.com format, a wikipedia entry also but here an element of control is lost, as in im sure wikipedia would demand input from anti sources also.

Do you think this project should be taken to PM perhaps?

Sparks

fathersymes wrote: »

Do you think this project should be taken to PM perhaps?

Yes, but not just yet

I'm not so sure about the newsfeed format myself, unless you have a wiki backing it. To me, the most urgent need would be to have that wiki listing the known information in one place, linked in an easy-to-access way. The software to build a wiki like wikipedia is as easy to use as that for a wordpress blog or the like, but again, you'd want to have it on your own server.

Once you had that, you could have a second section on the site that was a newsfeed, and when writing entries for that feed, you could link to parts in the wiki so that anyone reading it who didn't know who CACS were (for example) could click on the link and read about them.

I'd also stick the whole lot under a creative commons licence so that it could be used by other sites (like here ) but not altered (so ICABS couldn't legally borrow it and alter it for example).

The way I see it, the ICABS Watch thread can act as the newsfeed for the moment; get the wiki up and running first as we don't have one, and then start up the newsfeed. That'd be how I'd do it.

yubabill1

Could we put Grizzly 45's who's who of the antis in ICABS watch?
under the heading "Who's Who"

Sparks

In yet another journal story on foxes:

Michelle, at what point exactly are you planning on talking to the NARGC or the IFA; or has the journal decided on an editorial level to give an unbalanced view of things like fox control? There’s been a preponderance of articles on here of late, most with your byline, putting forward one viewpoint with no balance; and while the IWT are on the up-and-up, quite a lot of the other groups whose comments you don’t moderate and whose stories you publish have very, very dodgy backstories indeed.

Grizzly 45

yubabill1 wrote: »

Could we put Grizzly 45's who's who of the antis in ICABS watch?
under the heading "Who's Who"

If you do,let me edit and improve it a bit more??

yubabill1

Sparks wrote: »

In yet another journal story on foxes:

Link no longer works - did they pull the story?

Seems the whole journal.ie site is down - no loss AFAIC.

When they entertain fruitcakes comparing live cattle exports to the Holocaust, you really are scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Hunterbiker

Site is back up now.

I really can't believe some of the comments from the feeders it's disturbing. No response from the editorial team either...

yubabill1

Hunterbiker wrote: »

Site is back up now.

I really can't believe some of the comments from the feeders it's disturbing. No response from the editorial team either...

these fruitcakes will always play into our hands - either by their candlelight vigil for cattle or by us exposing the extremists we know about.

they are trolling the public by saying something sensible and inserting a swipe at fieldsports at the end: joe public will "like" something he MOSTLY agrees with.

What I mean is, the comments draw "likes" despite the fact most of the "likers" may not agree 100%, but the comment mostly makes sense to him.

No heavyweights wading in on the "Fox Tips" discussion in the jouenal.ie yet (Sparks' link above)

fathersymes

yubabill1 wrote: »

No heavyweights wading in on the "Fox Tips" discussion in the jouenal.ie yet (Sparks' link above)

Noticed that, John Fitzgerald and company staying away, they've deployed their minions to do it instead, a few posters have Roger Yates in their facebook friends!

yubabill1

fathersymes wrote: »

Noticed that, John Fitzgerald and company staying away, they've deployed their minions to do it instead, a few posters have Roger Yates in their facebook friends!

Let's troll the trolls.

Sparks

yubabill1 wrote: »

Let's troll the trolls.

Let's not. What would be the point? You want Fitzgerald and his ilk to go away; they're away. Poking wouldn't improve that and would just undo the little bit of good that's been done.

yubabill1

Sparks wrote: »

Let's not. What would be the point? You want Fitzgerald and his ilk to go away; they're away. Poking wouldn't improve that and would just undo the little bit of good that's been done.

If we're not trolling them right now, then I don't know what trolling is.

they are not going to go away, BTW. Messrs. Tierney and Fitzgerald have been doing this a long time.

We need to expose them at every turn. The public are staying away from the "Fox Tips" comments today, they know when they are being trolled (in my perhaps twisted notion of what that is)

if thejournal.ie has an editor, they may discourage this type of story/reporting if views start to fall, or if they perceive enough people are rankled.

Sparks

yubabill1 wrote: »

If we're not trolling them right now, then I don't know what trolling is.

Ah, here.
Person A says "X".
Person B says "Actually, Y from what we've seen. Also, where's your proof of X, which is legally a crime. And Publisher C, how come you're publishing A without any dissenting opinion even though A has a criminal record for breaking the law in support of X while the other side of the argument is completely law-abiding in support of Y?"

Person B is not trolling!
If Person B had just said "X ****s dead babies", that would be trolling.

It's a bit hard to be specific at this level of abstraction, mind, but what I've seen so far has not been trolling. Awkward, yes. Persistent in seeking answers to awkward questions, yes. But not trolling.

they are not going to go away, BTW. Messrs. Tierney and Fitzgerald have been doing this a long time.

Exactly. But the game is whack-a-mole, not whack-the-place-the-mole-isn't

if thejournal.ie has an editor, they may discourage this type of story/reporting if views start to fall, or if they perceive enough people are rankled.

Not the most preferred result, but better than thejournal.ie becoming just another indymedia.ie...

yubabill1

Ok
Let's continue NOT trolling the trolls :-)

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Grizzly 45

Posted this last nite,but my comment hasnt arrived on the boards? But anyway...
We have a nice counter punch to any of the antis going on about the farming or transportation being like the holocaust..PETA running an animal sanctuary in the US that has a 95% euthanisa policy of all dogs brought into it.Especially dogs with bad reputations,after all "Fammlies dont go to pounds to adapt pit bulls"
According to one PETA secetary..:mad:
The RSPCA spending more time and monies on hunt monitoring and prosecutions than on trying to rehome animals is another biggie at the moment.:rolleyes:

Somthing about dont judge other people,or you might be judged too,springs to mind here.