Celtic v Juventus 7.45 TV3

764dak

It's funny when Celtic or Chelsea play counterattacking football against Barca it is seen as negative but when Juventus does it against Celtic it is seen as masterful.

Utopia Parkway

Lennonist wrote: »

Did you not see the Juve defender bear hug Brown in the penalty box, after being booked? That can't and wont be allowed to continue. End of.

In fairness that was a nailed on penalty. And he did it right after being booked too. Ref should have given a pen for utter stupidity but he had obviously decided that he wasn't going to award any pens no matter what amount of wrestling went on.

snowblind

Ok, new rule suggestion. Home team players get to choose where they stand. Away players have to adjust accordingly.

According to these rules Lichtsteiner should have been sent out.

Bastards!

Smithwicks Man

764dak wrote: »

It's funny when Celtic or Chelsea play counterattacking football against Barca it is seen as negative but when Juventus does it against Celtic it is seen as masterful.

If Celtic or Chelsea go out and play counter attacking football at the Nou Camp and win 3-0 then I doubt many would call it negative :rolleyes:

Juventus outsmarted Celtic tonight and played to their strengths. Tactically they were fantastic and it was a very good result. This coming from a Milan fan.

Liam O

snowblind wrote: »

Didn't look like that to me at all, quite opposite! Even from the dozens of replays! Guess he wasn't trying to score, but to obstruct!

He was trying to walk by Lichtsteiner, not touch him or Buffon at least until the ball is played when as long as he doesn't move in a way contrary to the flight of the ball it is fair game. At no point was Lichtsteiner concerned at all with the flight of the ball, his game was impeding Hooper and before the ball was played he should have gotten his 2nd yellow, after the ball was played he should have been booked for grabbing Hooper and not attempting to play the ball and a penalty given to Celtic. How the ref didn't make either call was simply baffling.

Lennonist

snowblind wrote: »

You nicely took this out of context. Why should Lichtsteiner not be allowed to stand where he was?

Look at it this way - and if you can respond, that would be great too:

Hooper tries to stand half an inch from Buffon at every corner. So, when the corner is given, Buffon won't have the chance to move that way. What should Lichtsteiner do, just move out of the way so that Hooper can do that and impede Buffon's movement? Would you be all "ah fair play" if your defender let Matri do that to your precious GK? When you are a defender, you don't let someone do that.

What should a defender do in such a situation, just shrug and stand away?

What about the Juve defender who was bear hugging Brown in the pen box, after being booked? Did you see that one? Fair play has nowt to do with it, there's always manhandling in the pen box. But tonight it undoubtedly crossed a line, and other teams looking at it might start to copy it seeing as Juve got away with it. We'll see, watch the rest of the tournament...

Lennonist

Was Snoop at the match after?

Liam O

Lennonist wrote: »

What about the Juve defender who was bear hugging Brown in the pen box, after being booked? Did you see that one? Fair play has nowt to do with it, there's always manhandling in the pen box. But tonight it undoubtedly crossed a line, and other teams looking at it might start to copy it seeing as Juve got away with it. We'll see, watch the rest of the tournament...

I wonder if Vidic or Pepe will be doing it tomorrow, will be interesting indeed.

BhoscaCapall

Smithwicks Man wrote: »

Juventus outsmarted Celtic tonight and played to their strengths. Tactically they were fantastic and it was a very good result. This coming from a Milan fan.

They certainly did. We just call those strengths cheating, and that's a lesson for us.

I think we need to just live and learn. Next year we should go out and dive at every contact, manhandle everybody in the box etc and no doubt it will be excused by Uefa as our "style" of football and chalk it down to "experience" and "professionalism".

I'm not even being sarcastic. It happens to us every time we're in Europe and these are the excuses so it's about time we tried it. Sick of being on the receiving end. How many derbies were we left bitter that we'd been kicked off the ball at every tackle because our team was full of "technical" players, seemingly a nice word for fannys. Just get into them and hope Lawwell has invested in some brown envelopes :P

Lennonist wrote: »

Was Snoop at the match after?

The ref was sippin on gin & juice anyway

764dak

Smithwicks Man wrote: »

If Celtic or Chelsea go out and play counter attacking football at the Nou Camp and win 3-0 then I doubt many would call it negative :rolleyes:

Juventus outsmarted Celtic tonight and played to their strengths. Tactically they were fantastic and it was a very good result. This coming from a Milan fan.

I agree with you. Chelsea also played to their strengths last season and was criticized for it.

snowblind

Liam O wrote: »

He was trying to walk by Lichtsteiner, not touch him or Buffon at least until the ball is played when as long as he doesn't move in a way contrary to the flight of the ball it is fair game. At no point was Lichtsteiner concerned at all with the flight of the ball, his game was impeding Hooper and before the ball was played he should have gotten his 2nd yellow, after the ball was played he should have been booked for grabbing Hooper and not attempting to play the ball and a penalty given to Celtic. How the ref didn't make either call was simply baffling.

Hooper was clearly trying to walk through Lichtsteiner and Buffon. If he had wanted to walk past them, he definitely could have. Don't kid yourself.

Cienciano

Liam O wrote: »

He was trying to walk by Lichtsteiner, not touch him or Buffon at least until the ball is played when as long as he doesn't move in a way contrary to the flight of the ball it is fair game. At no point was Lichtsteiner concerned at all with the flight of the ball, his game was impeding Hooper and before the ball was played he should have gotten his 2nd yellow, after the ball was played he should have been booked for grabbing Hooper and not attempting to play the ball and a penalty given to Celtic. How the ref didn't make either call was simply baffling.

The irony. Lichsteiner should have been booked for impeding Hooper who in turn should have been allowed to impede Buffon.
LEt me get this straight, think I finally got what people are saying:
Lichsteiner gameplay at corners was to impede Hooper. That's bad and cheating.
Hoopers gameplan at corners was to impede Buffon. That's ok.
You couldn't make it up!

Liam O

snowblind wrote: »

Hooper was clearly trying to walk through Lichtsteiner and Buffon. If he had wanted to walk past them, he definitely could have. Don't kid yourself.

Riiiight, since you have not once outlined any rules that Hooper was breaking by trying to stand beside Buffon I think I'll leave you to your delusion and take the above advice and stop arguing with you.

Cienciano wrote: »

The irony. Lichsteiner should have been booked for impeding Hooper who in turn should have been allowed to impede Buffon.
LEt me get this straight, think I finally got what people are saying:
Lichsteiner gameplay at corners was to impede Hooper. That's bad and cheating.
Hoopers gameplan at corners was to impede Buffon. That's ok.
You couldn't make it up!

Hooper is allowed to stand anywhere he wants. Same as Lichtsteiner. What you are not allowed to do is stand somewhere with your arms out/around someone and stop them getting by or moving.

BhoscaCapall

Seriously.. these people are winding you up and you're being caught hook line and the rest :P

Even the ITV camera men knew what was going on, why do you think they were broadcasting it every corner!

Very smart play by Juve although somewhat reliant on a predictable ref.

snowblind

Liam O wrote: »

Riiiight, since you have not once outlined any rules that Hooper was breaking by trying to stand beside Buffon I think I'll leave you to your delusion and take the above advice and stop arguing with you.


Hooper is allowed to stand anywhere he wants. Same as Lichtsteiner. What you are not allowed to do is stand somewhere with your arms out/around someone and stop them getting by or moving.

Arms out and arms around someone are a decidedly different thing though, right? When Hooper pushes into him, by the law of physics, he has to do something with his outstretched arms to have balance. Of course, if he would have fallen down, that would have been playacting in the eyes of the Celtic fans here.

Aaaaand the outstretched arms were like that to show that he is just standing there not doing anything with his arms. Well done Hooper, playing into the arms of your fans I guess.

dfx-

Quit with the trolling accusations, BhoscaCapall.

BhoscaCapall

dfx- wrote: »

Quit with the trolling accusations, BhoscaCapall.

:pac::pac::pac: ok mate. Great moderating!

For the record I have no problem with it, I was just trying to be nice to fellow fans.

Cienciano

Liam O wrote: »

Hooper is allowed to stand anywhere he wants. Same as Lichtsteiner. What you are not allowed to do is stand somewhere with your arms out/around someone and stop them getting by or moving.

This is a free out then.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=b29pJKP8VSY#t=5s

Hooper is clearly obstructing Lichsteiner getting where he wants to go.


EDIT: I'm not trolling anyone. I said about 5 times that it was handbags and the ref was right to give a warning and dish out yellows after a few warnings. To say it was a couple of penos denied by the ref, and the italian team was cheating is farcical imho.

Broxi_Bear_Eire

Lennonist wrote: »

The manhandling in the pen box was ott tonight, would you not agree? They wont do anything because of tonights game. However if every team suddenly copied Juve's "tactics" at "defending" set pieces to the the extent that they operated tonight, then yeah they'd have to deal with it. They'd be deluding themselves otherwise.

No worse than I have seen in some EPL games this season or Italian or Spanish
I don't see it changing soon unfortunately

Lennonist

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/21437335

Midfielder Commons revealed Spanish referee Alberto Undiano Mallenco warned the Juventus players on several occasions that their grappling may lead to a Celtic spot-kick.

"He said if you do it again they'll get a penalty - that was in the first half," Commons said.

"He kept stopping it and booking people and telling people to stop it.

Clearly the ref knew there was something wrong with the Juve so called "defending" at set pieces. That much is beyond dispute. However he failed to act for whatever reason, maybe he got confused because there was so much of it going on and Celtic players got entangled with it.

Expect more of this manhandling carry on in the rest of the tournament. Players will have watched what Juve did tonight and will try the same thing; pushing the boundaries of the laws of the game to gain an edge. It's only natural, refs will be under huge pressure now. Not good for the game though.

eagle eye

Broxi_Bear_Eire wrote: »

No worse than I have seen in some EPL games this season or Italian or Spanish
I don't see it changing soon unfortunately

Well I watch an awful lot of Premier League and La Liga and I haven't seen anything like what was going on tonight.

Lennonist

Broxi_Bear_Eire wrote: »

No worse than I have seen in some EPL games this season or Italian or Spanish
I don't see it changing soon unfortunately

Tonight was ott, it crossed a line.

BhoscaCapall

You're both right. It happens in every league. It does not happen as frequently, obviously and aggressively as it did tonight.

The ref was like a crap parent, constantly telling their little shíte of a child that if they keep acting the maggot they'll get a slap.

Only in this analogy the sibling gets a slap for sitting next to them!

The fact the ref dished out bookings renders any argument invalid. It proves that it was in breach of the rules, and means the exact same behaviour immediately after, and constantly for the rest of the match was also worthy of punishment.

There were neutrals in the pub laughing at how obvious it was.

Lennonist

BhoscaCapall wrote: »

You're both right. It happens in every league. It does not happen as frequently, obviously and aggressively as it did tonight.

The ref was like a crap parent, constantly telling their little shíte of a child that if they keep acting the maggot they'll get a slap.

Only in this analogy the sibling gets a slap for sitting next to them!

The fact the ref dished out bookings renders any argument invalid. It proves that it was in breach of the rules, and means the exact same behaviour immediately after, and constantly for the rest of the match was also worthy of punishment.

There were neutrals in the pub laughing at how obvious it was.

That's the point that Commons made in his post match interview. The ref knew Juve were fouling/cheating, but he failed to act on his threat to get them to stop. So they just kept on doing it. Other teams will now follow Juve's example and pressure refs in a similar way.

BhoscaCapall

Juve aren't the first continental team to rely on biased referees in European games.

It makes you wonder how the Lisbon Lions did it back then. Probably because Billy McNeil would have kicked Leichensteiner's cúnt in.

awec

BhoscaCapall wrote: »

Juve aren't the first continental team to rely on biased referees in European games.

It makes you wonder how the Lisbon Lions did it back then. Probably because Billy McNeil would have kicked Leichensteiner's cúnt in.

It was easier to win back then than it is now, that's how.

The old biased referee excuse can be used if you're beaten by a dodgy goal, not when you're beaten 3 nil at home. That's just a comprehensive defeat.

Coillte_Bhoy

Eirebear wrote: »

Oh that's right, only the opinions of Celtic fans count.
Self righteous as ever.

I dont think ill even bother reading the rest of this thread, with you two commenting and of course thanking each other, grow up. Every neutral on this thread has a different opinion on the shenanigans that went on in the box, and has made a point of it, i watched it with 1 celtic fan and 5/6 others, goof Football lads who genuinely couldnt understand the ref in that situation. eb and bbe come on ye're better than that surely?? Call it as t is.

Coillte_Bhoy

TheBuilder wrote: »

It's always someone else's fault.

No, just the ref for not getting to grips with a particular problem. Overall the game? No complaints, thought we played brilliantly at times but in the end class showed.

Coillte_Bhoy

Cienciano wrote: »

The irony. Lichsteiner should have been booked for impeding Hooper who in turn should have been allowed to impede Buffon.
LEt me get this straight, think I finally got what people are saying:
Lichsteiner gameplay at corners was to impede Hooper. That's bad and cheating.
Hoopers gameplan at corners was to impede Buffon. That's ok.
You couldn't make it up!

Absolutely. Hooper was jus standing his ground, disgraceful how he had his two arms around Buffon:rolleyes:

Richard Hillman

Most of the type of things you see in the box would be deemed a penalty in American football. Even the slightest hold gets penalised.

It is ironic though seeing celtic fans complain about cynical play. I doubt they were complaining much when Bobo Balde and Lennon used to stop counter attacks in European games by intentionally fouling anything going forward.

Broxi_Bear_Eire

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

I dont think ill even bother reading the rest of this thread, with you two commenting and of course thanking each other, grow up. Every neutral on this thread has a different opinion on the shenanigans that went on in the box, and has made a point of it, i watched it with 1 celtic fan and 5/6 others, goof Football lads who genuinely couldnt understand the ref in that situation. eb and bbe come on ye're better than that surely?? Call it as t is.

Sorry I said very little until after the game about the Ref
But for me.
1. Hooper znd the Juventus player were both at it with the same intention to get each other into bother. In the second half it was turns each from Celtic players to have a go at corners with the same Juvw player
I then after the first half didn't comment till after thd game when I said that the grappling in the box had been going on all night but I have watched plenty of EPL Italian and Spamish football where ghost is happening all the time.
Now it would have made no difference because as soon as EB disagreed with what certain tic fans were saying he was shouted down why because he was a bear now that I find pathetic It's now came to it we can't give an opposiling viewpoint but it has to be because we are Rangets fans. Yet other people were saying similar things but not a word said
As for you watching it with mates I watched if with one of mine who is a tic fan. He was upset but in the Hooper case he reckoned both were at it but we agreed the wrestling in the box in the second half was out of order but again an old trait in Italian and Spanish football and guess what a Spanish ref
To be fair I don't think EB thanked me I know I thanked him. And to be honest I don't think it has anything to do with you how I use my thank button

PauloMN

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Absolutely. Hooper was jus standing his ground, disgraceful how he had his two arms around Buffon:rolleyes:

No point in arguing with people who are using the term "impede" to mean two different things.

They reckon Hooper was "impeding" Buffon, when he was doing nothing wrong and is entitled to stand where he wants in the penalty box. They reckon Lichtsteiner was doing the same "impeding" on Hooper, when anyone with eyes just has to see he was pulling and pushing Hooper all over the place.

He was doing it right in front of the ref, straight after being warned about it. The ref completely bottled it, there can be no doubt about it if you look at the replays.

It was disappointing from Juve, who really didn't need to resort to those tactics, but more disappointing from the ref.

A Dub in Glasgo

The logic of some on here takes the biscuit

'It was OK for the Juventus player to foul the Celtic player as the Celtic player was just about to foul a different Juventus player and that is why the ref did not give a foul '... then people wonder what form of myopia is on show!

Irishcrx

He was pulling him in the next , he wasn't pulling him in the box (Insert 8 paragraphs here as to my opinion of pulling in the box)

Very simple , Celtic were outclassed by better opposition last night who picked them off clinicly and will be lucky to get out of Turin without being embarrassed too much.

End of.

Certified

It appears Juve did a lot of research on the Celtic set pieces. Hooper, rightly complying with the rules of the game was tactically positioned to block Buffon from cleanly getting onto the ball. Looking back at a few of Celtic's past set pieces this seems to be a very successful tactic and again, it is not against the rules!
Stephan Lichtsteiner was given the role of protecting Buffon, but from what I saw, in his passion for the cause he created even more of a nuisance for Gigi. He ran a real risk of being sent off and giving away a penalty. Hooper of course saw this as for the opportunity it was and played along. It got a bit ridiculous, the ref is not an idiot he could see both of them at it like hyped up kids. The difference being, Lichsteiner was really pushing the ref on what he would tolerate and the risk was to great. He rode his luck, the ref let him off and that was fortunate as Juve are not actually accustumed to being on the favourable side of refs decisions, contrary to the BS some people spout about them.
Gigi is not the best goalkeeper in the world for nothing and is well capable of looking after himself; he gave a clear demonstration later in the game when he clearly was seen having a quick word with Lichsteiner. The next Celtic cross came in and Gigi clattered into Hooper whilst claiming the ball. I don’t recall Hooper standing that close to Buffon after that.

Lesson for Juve, Buffon is a big lad. Let him handle it for the return leg.

Celtic played great football, were a bit unfortunate but the second leg is yet to come!

A Dub in Glasgo

Irishcrx wrote: »

He was pulling him in the next , he wasn't pulling him in the box (Insert 8 paragraphs here as to my opinion of pulling in the box)

Very simple , Celtic were outclassed by better opposition last night who picked them off clinicly and will be lucky to get out of Turin without being embarrassed too much.

End of.

Is that the same as putting 'Fact.' at the end of a post?

mitosis

BhoscaCapall wrote: »

There were neutrals in the pub laughing at how obvious it was.

That's the winning argument so.

mitosis

PauloMN wrote: »

when anyone with eyes just has to see he was pulling and pushing Hooper all over the place.

I am no supporter of his tactic, but the only times Lichsteiner laid hands on Hooper was when Hooper was barging him. It was either grab or fall into the net. Based on their size difference, Hooper would have to be drunk to be manhandled by Lichsteiner.

gosplan

Irishcrx wrote: »

He was pulling him in the next , he wasn't pulling him in the box (Insert 8 paragraphs here as to my opinion of pulling in the box)

Very simple , Celtic were outclassed by better opposition last night who picked them off clinicly and will be lucky to get out of Turin without being embarrassed too much.

End of.

As you said Juve were clinical. They soaked up the pressure and the atmosphere and dealt with balls flying into the box. Then they took their chances - all in all a very professional performance and it's clear that they prepared well for this game. In that way they showed Celtic more respect than Barca who just figured on turning up and playing their wonderful football. Juve knew Celtic would be committed, agressive and make it very difficult for them and they handled it well.

Regardless of what happens though, Celtic will not be embarassed in Turin. There's nothing embarassing about this campaign.

Ireland were embarassed at the Euros but that because along with getting thumped, we couldn't string two passes together. Celtic are playing football, they're positive and try to create chances for themselves. They just met a Juve outfit who were well organised and handled it brilliantly. IMO with Juve playing like that, the tie could be run 10 times and Celtic couldn't win but it's not embarassing.

PauloMN

I don't think any Celtic fan is complaining about the actual result. I think everyone agrees that Juve were clinical in front of goal, something Celtic were clearly not.

The carry-on in the box was OTT though, that's the only gripe I have with Juve, but it's more that the ref did not put a stop to it, even after warning Lichtsteiner about it. They did not need to carry on like that, they'd have probably won anyway let's face it. There's no doubt that they watched the Barca videos and had a plan on how to deal with Celtic set pieces, which is fine so long as the plan does not result in carry on like that.

The most frustrating thing for Celtic fans is that Celtic actually played very well, had a lot of the ball and some decent chances that we could not finish or capitalise on.

Hopefully Celtic will be better defensively in Turin. I'd specifically play Ambrose in that game because every Celtic fan knows he's a much better player than he showed last night. With Sammy back we should see a better result.

snowblind

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

I dont think ill even bother reading the rest of this thread, with you two commenting and of course thanking each other, grow up. Every neutral on this thread has a different opinion on the shenanigans that went on in the box, and has made a point of it, i watched it with 1 celtic fan and 5/6 others, goof Football lads who genuinely couldnt understand the ref in that situation. eb and bbe come on ye're better than that surely?? Call it as t is.

Incredible. Good going trying to dismiss others opinions!

I've seen a bunch of other discussion forums where Celtic fans have seen Hooper being in the wrong as much as Lichtsteiner. I'm also not so sure how neutral these neutrals are you are talking about.

As a side note, when people here say the ref had shown Lichtsteiner was in the wrong by giving him a yellow card, how are you in the same breath forgetting that he also gave Hooper one? So by your logic both should have been sent off and your anti-juve slant does not carry. This also goes for Kris Commons.

A Dub in Glasgo

Arms outstretched to stop Hooper going around... happened half a dozen times yet the ref bottled it

Lustig getting stripped by the Juve player... nothing

Brown rugby tackled in the box

snowblind

PauloMN wrote: »

No point in arguing with people who are using the term "impede" to mean two different things.

They reckon Hooper was "impeding" Buffon, when he was doing nothing wrong and is entitled to stand where he wants in the penalty box. They reckon Lichtsteiner was doing the same "impeding" on Hooper, when anyone with eyes just has to see he was pulling and pushing Hooper all over the place.

He was doing it right in front of the ref, straight after being warned about it. The ref completely bottled it, there can be no doubt about it if you look at the replays.

It was disappointing from Juve, who really didn't need to resort to those tactics, but more disappointing from the ref.

Hooper was trying to stand so close to Buffon, that Buffon would have no chance of going into that direction when the corner was given! Why doesn't a team just put three players an inch away on the front, left and right of the keeper to obstruct the keeper from doing their job? Just stand there and if the keeper moves, they touch you, you don't touch them! Of course Lichtsteiner tries to stop this nonsense, as would any defender doing their job. I've said this a couple of times already, but no one seems to be able to argue against it.

snowblind

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Arms outstretched to stop Hooper going around... happened half a dozen times yet the ref bottled it

Lustig getting stripped by the Juve player... nothing

Brown rugby tackled in the box

Are you serious? That is arms outstretched to show that he is not trying to hold Hooper, for the refs. How do you follow football and do not understand these simplest things. Arms anywhere else and you would be saying he is pulling on Hoopers shirt or holding him. Only way to please you is to either cut arms off or just stand elsewhere letting Celtic do what they want. I guess that would be the only way Celtic would have stood a chance :rolleyes:

The_Kew_Tour

By the letter of the law going by that photo Celtic should of got a Peno.

Thats dragging a player shirt.

100% peno.

snowblind

But where is the Celtic lads left hand...uh oh! 100% FK!

A Dub in Glasgo

snowblind wrote: »

That is arms outstretched to show that he is not trying to hold Hooper

The_Kew_Tour

snowblind wrote: »

But where is the Celtic lads left hand...uh oh! 100% FK!

Its not pulling his shirt. Im glad you are not a ref.

stooge

Grappling in the box is part an parcel of the game. Granted it was a bit over the top at times but I think the ref dealt with it relatively well.

Bitterly disaapointed in the result, especially since Celtic more or less outclassed and outfought Juve for the first 50-60mins. Playing Ambrose was the one decision that you could say has cost them a chance of progressing.

At fault for the first, missed the best chance they had to score, wasn't tight enough for the second goals layoff, and lost the ball for the third. He wasn't 100% and Lennon should have known better. Maybe it was Lennons inexperience showing.

Wanyama, Commons, Mulgrew were the standout performers for me. Thought Foster might have done better for at least one of the goals too. Also thought they put far too many high balls into the box for Hooper and Forrest (the smallest lads on the pitch). Maybe they thought Samaras was playing!

The 2nd and 3rd goals were killers though. Maybe again it was inexperience but Celtic tried to force the issue and ended up conceding 2 more and killing the tie. Sometimes its best to keep it tight and be patient rather than going 100mph all the time.

Will still hold on to the brief hope that with Samaras back they can pull an early goal back and put Juve under pressure but in all likelihood they'll spend the next few months cantering to another league win

snowblind

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

That is not an argument.

But anyways, players use outstretched arms pretty much inclusively to signify to the ref "look I am not pushing or pulling here, so if you see some of that, it can't be me". The fact that you interpret this differently tells something about your purposes.