Rent Rise Negotiation

Zamboni

Real issue = No objective market rate

Ray Palmer

djimi wrote: »

Why would you think that? The OP has said that the average asking price for their area is about 5% more than they are paying, which most likely means they are paying exactly the same as most other tenants in similar properties.

12.5% increase is €125 a month increase on a €1000 a month property. Id say the landlord would have a hell of a job convincing anyone that that kind of increase is justified.

Justified? What has that got to do with anything. As the legislation uses the term market rate I am going by that as a reason to have a case with the PRTB.

I would take that market rate to be 10% either side of the average. As the OP is paying less than the average according to him. 12.5% on top of that amount would be within 10% of the average.

The legislation is to stop people doubling rent as a means to get people to leave and not a way to control rents. It works out roughly 7% above the average which I consider within market rates.

I reject your claim that what other people are renting must be paying about the same as them at 5% below advertised rents in the area. I think it is a wild assumption and one the PRTB could not make if a case was brought. People are already saying their is a squeeze on getting a place to rent in Dublin. That probably means some will pay more than the advertised prices.

I effectively don't think there is a case which is my point.

djimi

Ray Palmer wrote: »

I reject your claim that what other people are renting must be paying about the same as them at 5% below advertised rents in the area. I think it is a wild assumption and one the PRTB could not make if a case was brought. People are already saying their is a squeeze on getting a place to rent in Dublin. That probably means some will pay more than the advertised prices.

I effectively don't think there is a case which is my point.

There are 25 other counties in this country; most of which are not seeing the rental market that Dublin is. I dont know where the OP is, but I can tell you that outside of Dublin rentals are not always going for asking price. Reject that all you want; Im going on my own experience and what I have seen of family and friends. If the OP is in Dublin and rents in his area are on the up then so be it; hence the reason why I said do your investigation. There are lot of places outside of Dublin where this is not the case.

And the same goes for the 12.5% increase. If the OP is paying the average for their area then it is a huge increase. If they are paying less then it obviously becomes less of a significant increase compared to market rental rates (its still a huge increase to have in one year regardless however). Its up to the OP to figure out how high an increase it is and base their decision on how to act next upon that.

Ray Palmer

djimi wrote: »

There are 25 other counties in this country; most of which are not seeing the rental market that Dublin is. I dont know where the OP is, but I can tell you that outside of Dublin rentals are not always going for asking price. Reject that all you want; Im going on my own experience and what I have seen of family and friends. If the OP is in Dublin and rents in his area are on the up then so be it; hence the reason why I said do your investigation. There are lot of places outside of Dublin where this is not the case.

And the same goes for the 12.5% increase. If the OP is paying the average for their area then it is a huge increase. If they are paying less then it obviously becomes less of a significant increase compared to market rental rates (its still a huge increase to have in one year regardless however). Its up to the OP to figure out how high an increase it is and base their decision on how to act next upon that.

Maybe you should read a thread properly before you give an opinion. The OP said in the first line they are Dublin city centre! The said the are paying less than the average based on the information they have.
You are making up a different situation. You may see it as a huge increase but it within what most would consider market rates. A normal price correction after a discounted rent.
No case for the PRTB. Options are move or pay.

djimi

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Maybe you should read a thread properly before you give an opinion. The OP said in the first line they are Dublin city centre! The said the are paying less than the average based on the information they have.
You are making up a different situation. You may see it as a huge increase but it within what most would consider market rates. A normal price correction after a discounted rent.
No case for the PRTB. Options are move or pay.

Okay I missed the part where they said they are in Dublin.

I still stand by my advise; if the OP thinks that the increase is too high then seek advise from Threshold and decide what to do from there. I personally do think that the increase is excessively high (as I said, €125 increase on a €1000 rent is outrageous, regardless of market rent) but Im only a poster on an internet forum and my opinion doesnt count for much.

Ray Palmer

djimi wrote: »

Okay I missed the part where they said they are in Dublin.

I still stand by my advise; if the OP thinks that the increase is too high then seek advise from Threshold and decide what to do from there. I personally do think that the increase is excessively high (as I said, €125 increase on a €1000 rent is outrageous, regardless of market rent) but Im only a poster on an internet forum and my opinion doesnt count for much.

Why regardless of market rent? Landlords are somehow meant to offer reduced rent to somebody for no apparent reason? Don't know why you insist on using a value as opposed to the % figure we are being told. Anyway you are so right when you say your opinion doesn't count.

What do you think Threshold can do? It is a pretty straight forward situation. Rent has increased tenant doesn't like it and doesn't want to pay LL says no negotiation. There is no law against it being raised this amount.

You do understand that LL cost went up in the last budget with most having to pay over 6% extra tax and increased property tax also. You expect them to swallow that and let the tenant pay less than the market rate? That sounds most unreasonable to me.

The LL will actually get less this year than last year even with the 12.5% increase in rent.

djimi

Because 12.5% is a huge increase. Maybe you see it differently coming at it from a landlords point of view, but I can guarantee you there isnt a single tenent out there who roll over and accept a €100+ a month rent increase. If its justified then so be it, but I certainly wouldnt just blindly accept an increase of that amount (because the market rate certainly hasnt jumped 12.5% in the last year, in my area anyway) and I doubt many other tenants would either.

Either way Im not bothered debating this any more. Ive made my point; if the OP doesnt like it they can seek advice from Threshold (who may or may not just repeat with the likes of Ray have said), and choose to fight it if they wish, or they can move out.

Ray Palmer

djimi wrote: »

Either way Im not bothered debating this any more. Ive made my point; if the OP doesnt like it they can seek advice from Threshold (who may or may not just repeat with the likes of Ray have said), and choose to fight it if they wish, or they can move out.

I still don't get what you think they will be able to tell the OP. You just seem to be saying it is unreasonable increase but have ignored that given the market and cost increases and legiislation it simply isn't.

You never made any point other than people don't like it and relating it to your area where rents are not rising. You never debated any relevant point

djimi

Ray Palmer wrote: »

I still don't get what you think they will be able to tell the OP. You just seem to be saying it is unreasonable increase but have ignored that given the market and cost increases and legiislation it simply isn't.

You never made any point other than people don't like it and relating it to your area where rents are not rising. You never debated any relevant point

Have market rates risen 12% in the past year in Dublin city center?

All Im saying to the OP is to query the rise. Your opinion on whether it is justified is about as worthless as mine; neither of us know the OPs particular situation so we are both only playing guessing games.

The OP is querying the rental rise. Threshold are there to help tenants who have queries. I have no idea what they will tell him, but they will listen to the OPs case and offer advise based on what they are told. Its what they are there for. If they tell him the same as you are saying then at least the OP knows where they stand. If they think that the rise is unfair then they may advise to persue it further. Worth it for the sake of a phone call Id say.

wicklowwonder

Guys thanks for all the advice, all very appreciated. Dropped Threshold a mail earlier see what they say, not really sure if I want to go down the PRTB route as I have started looking at other properties and organising viewings and there are some decent ones around same price and a few even cheaper that I am going view. My last ploy is to offer the LL to commit to another full year as I don't really want the hassle of moving and hopefully he accepts some negotiation on this.

Thanks for all the help.

the_syco

wicklowwonder wrote: »

Not sure what to do, girlfriend is keen to stay as its a nice gaff, I wouldn't mind moving as I feel for an 15%-20% increase we could a nice two bed.

What ares does your GF work, and roughly what is your rent now? Maybe we can find a nice 2bed place for ye?

D3PO

Legal Expert wrote: »

You don't have to move out if you don't think the increase is fair. You can take a casse with the PRTB and you can continue to rent at the old price whilst the case is being heard. This can take a year or two. Of course if you lose then you will owe the difference.

This case is very interesting in that regard. If a landlord can't prove that rents have gone up by x% on average since you took on a tenancy at market rates then they will lose.

http://public.prtb.ie/2011%20Disputes/Tribunals%202011/TR24.DR920.2011/Tribunal%20Report.pdf

The original judgement was fairly disgraceful if you read into it but the tribunal hearing completed reversed that decision.

seriously linking a judgement where a landlord tried to incrase rent by 50% is not a reasonable comparrison. Rediculous to argue the two cases are even close to comparable.

Zamboni

D3PO wrote: »

seriously linking a judgement where a landlord tried to incrase rent by 50% is not a reasonable comparrison. Rediculous to argue the two cases are even close to comparable.

He was not making a comparison.
He was making a point.

littleredspot

Legal Expert wrote: »

I would go with this route as there is nothing to lose. The landlord can't kick you out for taking them to the PRTB .



http://goo.gl/maps/APgcL

There's lots to lose. Your sanity for a start waiting on the PRTB to act. When you eventually move out you won't be getting a good reference, which is increasingly important. You'll be dealing with a landlord that doesn't want you in his property for the duration of your stay. Good luck with getting any repairs done or asking for a few extra days to pay the rent when your wages are late.

But probably most importantly you'll feel crap with a court case hanging over your head for a year or so. You'll feel totally different about your home every time you open the front door.

Some people would be happy to put up with that for the principle of the matter I suppose but the OP has stated that there's nicer and cheaper places on the market, so would you really want all that stress?