USI referendum Monday 25th - Tuesday 26th

errlloyd

Hey guys. My name is Chris I am one of the campaign managers for the disaffiliation (No) side in the referendum.

I'm not going to start with an argument of why you should vote no, because it's not conducive toward a fair discussion. I'm just kind of throwing the thread out there for you guys to engage with.

So, first time in 9 years we've voted on USI membership what do people think.

WoollyRedHat

If someone can make a convincing arguement as to what the USI brings to the table, and if it really is conductive to our best interests and represents us and gives students value for money, then I'll vote yes. Otherwise, disaffliation, as the way I see it, it's a talking shop, that isn't really anything innovative.

bbuzz

Think you made some great points in the article in the Tribune Chris.

Have to say that when I was a class rep I didn't see any benefit of being affiliated with the USI, even mentioned is to Gary Redmond. If someone who's involved in the SU can't see the benefit what does the ordinary member see?

UCDSU is probably one of the few SUs that could go it alone. I see the benefit for smaller unions, who don't have the same resources, but for us? Sabbat training could be replaced by an extended handover period and maybe get some former SU sabbats to help and there's no reason why the SU couldn't cooperate with USI protests.

I really don't think that USI is fit for purpose anymore. The days of the SU being a mainly a political organisation are long gone, students want to see the SU providing better services (like a bar!!).

Not to mention that the USI dues would go a long way to servicing the SU debt mountain. But I'm sure that a lot of people will see it differently.

On another note, I'd like to see the candidates for the SU elections this year give their position on USI affiliation.

Polar Ice

bbuzz wrote: »

UCDSU is probably one of the few SUs that could go it alone.

The University of Limerick Students' Union, ULSU, hasn't been a member in a long time. It left in 1991. In 2001 it held a referendum to rejoin, but it was inquorate and fell short of the required percentage to pass regardless.
I don't think DCU is a member either.
In that case, over 20% of university students in rep. Ireland aren't members. If UCD left, that would double. (I'm distinctly only looking at the 7 universities)

You could view it as a free rider stance, all of the benefit and none of the cost. UL's enrolment numbers are about half that of UCD's. How would USI be impacted by the loss of a substantial number of people?

What's the cost of USI membership to the SU/Students?
Also, would someone mind linking to information already published? Newer people to UCD, or people that don't actively follow stuff might want to be able to find stuff easily.

unknown13

USI needs UCD more than UCD needs it. If UCD leaves there will always be shadow hanging over USI in that, they don't represent UCD, the largest university in Ireland.

Personally, I think we should leave USI. Its becoming harder and harder to keep buying the points made the YES side and Chris echoes my view that I don't feel somewhat attached to a student in NUIG, NUIM, UCC, TCD because I am in a college that is a member of USI. At the debate USI were taken apart with very valid points.

[Jackass]

Anybody care to give their view (whichever side you support) about what you believe to be the benefits of USI membership, or what you think would be the benefits of leaving the USI?

Or if someone impartial would like to present both sides of the argument, that would be great

errlloyd

Independent Media

Tribune Editorial on USI

http://www.collegetribune.ie/index.php/2013/02/9816/

Tribune Interview with me (pro disaffiliation) on membership

http://www.collegetribune.ie/index.php/2013/02/usi-disaffiliation-campaigner-questions-usi-democracy/

Tribune Interview with John Logue (USI pres) on membership

http://www.collegetribune.ie/index.php/2013/02/departure-from-usi-would-be-major-blow-to-the-organisation-logue/

CTN debate between me and Sean Glennon on membership.

http://ctn.ie/?p=1751

University Observer Editorial

http://www.universityobserver.ie/2013/02/05/editorial-february-5th/




Manifestos must be submitted to the returning office by 4pm tomorrow, but I doubt either side will post them here and show their hand straight away. I will be starting a blog to better articulate more complex arguments. But again, I am just one side.

dajaffa

[Jackass] wrote: »

Anybody care to give their view (whichever side you support) about what you believe to be the benefits of USI membership, or what you think would be the benefits of leaving the USI?

Or if someone impartial would like to present both sides of the argument, that would be great

To be very brief... (as much as I can)

Benefits of affiliation:

Overall benefits of national campaigns (fees, grants, student assistance fund, fund for students with disabilities etc) - in general over the last few years these have been kind of successful. Bigger cuts were planned in some budgets and imo USI campaigns helped reduce these, but cuts still happened.

Training - UCDSU officers could get their own training, but it'd be a lot more expensive or of a lower quality. There are 1/2 particularly good people who give training at USI who charge individual unions a lot of money to do training so it would either cost a lot or you wouldn't get it. Training is hugely beneficial for presidents, education and welfare officers. Welfare officers in particular I think struggle if they aren't in USI as the range of issues are a lot less straightforward to deal with than an education officer where it is more black and white.

Representation - USI has representation on every relevant body/board etc. This has lots of general benefits for all students everywhere, but there are times when access to certain information, from say the HEA, can be of great benefit to a local union if they are in a dispute with college management.

Support on local campaigns like SHAG week

Lobbying on non-education issues like LGBT rights - USI has in the past been a leading voice on rights issues and has been a voice nationally.[/LIST]


Benefits of disaffiliation:

Money (in a few years - most member unions have arrears and if they left would probably have to pay that back, it tends to be overlooked when membership is still active).

Not being tied to a national campaign if the local union disagrees. Obviously at USI congress motions are passed that not everyone supports and it becomes policy.[/LIST]



The issue for USI, like other unions, is that you don't have to be a member to get the benefits (such as grants), but if everyone left some of the overall benefits wouldn't be there anymore and students would suffer. FYI DCU are holding an affiliation referendum soon as far as I know. It's pretty likely that if UL becomes the only non-affiliated union that they'll hold an affiliation referendum in the next few years.

FYI I'm very much in favour of affiliation, in case that wasn't obvious!

Raphael

WoolyRedHat, bbuzz, dajaffa, [Jackass] - Please post in the Deceleration of SU allegiances thread before 5pm today, or I will be banning you in accordance with the rules set out there. This warning is not standard, will not be repeated, and is mainly occurring because it's Friday and that makes me happy.

errlloyd

dajaffa wrote: »

Training - UCDSU officers could get their own training, but it'd be a lot more expensive or of a lower quality. There are 1/2 particularly good people who give training at USI who charge individual unions a lot of money to do training so it would either cost a lot or you wouldn't get it. Training is hugely beneficial for presidents, education and welfare officers. Welfare officers in particular I think struggle if they aren't in USI as the range of issues are a lot less straightforward to deal with than an education officer where it is more black and white.

I don't want to start a quoting war, because both of us would come out looking bad. I do want to engage with you on this issue though, because I think there is some presumption and misinformation out there about training.

Firstly the training cost of USI is extra, 500 per sabbatical officer. So costs us 2,500. I recently contacted UL President Adam Moursy about this and asked how they solved this problem. They said they hired a company called invisio to provide their training at 1,000 for 3 officers. In a 3 to one situation on their own campus.

These are some of Invisio's clients http://www.invisio.ie/clients.asp

He said the welfare officer receives targeted training from the University counsellors over the summer months when there are no students. And the university provide it for free. Sounds like a sweet deal.

Polar Ice

dajaffa wrote: »

It's pretty likely that if UL becomes the only non-affiliated union that they'll hold an affiliation referendum in the next few years.

FYI I'm very much in favour of affiliation, in case that wasn't obvious!

Since the last few posts have been discussing UL, I should point out I'm a UL graduate.

UL disaffiliated in 1991. It held one referendum in 2001 to consider rejoining, but the referendum fell short of being quorate and it fell short of the required percentage of yes votes to pass regardless. There hasn't been a referendum in UL to affiliate with USI in 12 years. UL has been outside of USI for 22 years. I really doubt that any referendum to affiliate with USI is on the cards. ULSU doesn't have the money to affiliate regardless.

UL gets all the benefit from USI's national campaigns. You could view it as a free rider. However, UL students still participate in stuff like the USI protests in Dublin, they just do so under the ULSU banner.

Raphael

Raphael wrote: »

WoolyRedHat, bbuzz, dajaffa, [Jackass] - Please post in the Deceleration of SU allegiances thread before 5pm today, or I will be banning you in accordance with the rules set out there. This warning is not standard, will not be repeated, and is mainly occurring because it's Friday and that makes me happy.

bbuzz, dajaffa and [Jackass] banned. Bans will be lifted upon PMing me to guarantee that their next post will be in the Deceleration of SU allegiances thread, or the election ending - whichever comes first.

cuckoo

If i hadn't seen this thread here I would never have known the referendum was taking place.

Polling times are here on the su website, in case anyone else was as unaware as me:

http://www.ucdsu.ie/elections

(had to dig around a bit to find them, ucdsu.ie homepage is telling us about class rep refresher training on january 19th, is this a supersekrit referendum only for ppl who read the college newspapers?!?)

errlloyd

cuckoo wrote: »

If i hadn't seen this thread here I would never have known the referendum was taking place.

Polling times are here on the su website, in case anyone else was as unaware as me:

http://www.ucdsu.ie/elections

(had to dig around a bit to find them, ucdsu.ie homepage is telling us about class rep refresher training on january 19th, is this a supersekrit referendum only for ppl who read the college newspapers?!?)

#No2usi was trending on twitter yesterday for an hour. The canvassing starts today.

bbuzz

The campaign is getting very personal on twitter now, seems to be a very divisive issue within the SU.

The main feeds are:
@yestousi
@no2usi

Durz0 Blint

I will be voting yes

I don't think the USI are a very effective organisation and don't see what it is they do, however my main concern is keeping fees as low as possible and I think a united organisation is much more effective at arguing for students causes than if we are divided.

Admittedly the USI have been ineffective in keeping fees down but I believe this is down to the simple economic reality that we are in a recession and the government needs to cut costs everywhere. Also it is my understanding (i may be wrong on this) that the USI has a strict no fees campaign, perhaps they would be more successful if they adopted a more realistic stance such as encouraged some form of student loan system as has been proposed in the past.

Overall I think having an organised union fight to keep my fees as low as possible is worth the €5/6 I pay them for their service.

So as far as I see it's a case between a not too great USI or a worse scenario where we are divided and have no one to fight for students issues.

I also really did not like a lot of the NO campaigners, their main argument (for a few of them) seemed to be they would use the money saved to fund the student bar, I would rather the money be used on more important things such as say, the student assistance fund.

WoollyRedHat

The campaign on no fees has been a disaster... USI may claim they made some strides in keeping the registration fee lower, but the reality of the situation is they have gone up year on year... it's time for a change of policy, that was evident sometime ago, defintely when it was clear that the current government would not be adhering to its election promises. The only viable and credible way forward now is to lobby for a student loan scheme to be put in place.. this however will take time and effort, something which the current USI have already wasted on a lost cause. The USI claimed they got 3 million euro extra addedto the Student Assistant fund this year... does it matter if we are with them or not?

I don't trust the U.S.I and they offer much of the same, most of the time.
We should see about making our own union, if neccesary. And I agree with you that 126,000 euro thrown at the bar is not wise, but these people who advocate this are just going down the populist route, it's an Irish speciality. What the bar needs is competent people, who actually keep accounts and have business acumen and fresh ideas, not more money thrown at it, only to run down the drain.

cuckoo

Does UCDSU have an electoral/referendum commission? Aside from the yes and no campaigns is there anyone or body that's charged with letting the electorate know that the vote is next week?

I get it, these kinds of referenda are a bottomless pit of SU hackery, backstabbing and glee, but c'mon, the whole SU membership is supposed to be voting on this.

I'll be voting to stay in USI - breakaway factions get proposed every few years (eg FUSU, think it was the 'federation of university student unions', does that still exist?) but they never really go anywhere.

USI also serves a purpose in retaining some of the knowledge and experience within the student movement, the short life cycle of the SU officer means the constant turnover leads to too many mistakes being repeated over and over again. A SU is a very unique beast, and as such it's a very unique form of training that it's officers should be getting, sometimes sabbaticals lose the run of themselves a little and put too much emphasis on a staff managerial/CEO delusion of what the job is, and start looking into getting training from business consultants.

Fergus_Nash

cuckoo wrote: »

I'll be voting to stay in USI - breakaway factions get proposed every few years (eg FUSU, think it was the 'federation of university student unions', does that still exist?) but they never really go anywhere.

USI also serves a purpose in retaining some of the knowledge and experience within the student movement, the short life cycle of the SU officer means the constant turnover leads to too many mistakes being repeated over and over again. A SU is a very unique beast, and as such it's a very unique form of training that it's officers should be getting, sometimes sabbaticals lose the run of themselves a little and put too much emphasis on a staff managerial/CEO delusion of what the job is, and start looking into getting training from business consultants.

As for the first sentence, I believe that this is the first time in a decade UCD students have a vote on this issue. To my knowledge, UCDSU has never been disaffiliated from the USI for a long period of time. I think we have to give this a chance. We're the biggest university in the country, and we can make a difference.

As for the training that USI provides, USI officers have a short life cycle also. They are only students themselves, taking a sabbatical. The same mistakes you mention that SU officers can make are the same mistakes USI officers are susceptible to make.

WoollyRedHat

Where can you vote in the Newman building?

Maldesu

WoollyRedHat wrote: »

Where can you vote in the Newman building?

Polling times for the USI and Constitutional Referenda:

** you must bring your student card to vote**
Agriculture & Vet
Veterinary 10:30am - 3:30pm Monday
Agriculture 10:30am - 4pm Tuesday
Arts Block 6pm - 8:45pm Tuesday

Architecture & Engineering
Richview 10am - 1:15pm Monday
Newstead 1:45pm - 5pm Monday
Engineering 10:30am - 4:30pm Tuesday
Arts Block 6pm - 8:45pm Tuesday

Arts & Human Sciences
Carysfort 12pm - 5pm Monday
Arts Block 9:45am - 5:15pm Tuesday
Arts Block 6pm - 8:45pm Tuesday

Business & Law
(Excluding Postgrad. Business)
Roebuck 10:30am - 4pm Monday
Quinn School 10:30am - 5pm Tuesday
Arts Block 6pm - 8:45pm Tuesday

Business Postgrad.
Carysfort 12pm - 5pm Monday
Quinn School 10:30am - 5pm Tuesday
Arts Block 6pm - 8:45pm Tuesday

Health Sci. & Nursing
Health Sciences 10am - 5pm Tuesday
Arts Block 6pm - 8:45pm Tuesday

Science
Science 10:30am - 5pm Tuesday
Arts Block 6pm - 8:45pm Tuesday

Fergus_Nash

WoollyRedHat wrote: »

Where can you vote in the Newman building?

Voting is at the Blob. It's opposite Th. L, where Gamesoc sit around and do nothing most of the time*. You can vote now until 8 45pm, or all day tomorrow with the exception of 5-6. If you are anywhere near Th. L tomorrow you'll see lots of people trying to get you to vote a certain way. Get informed and make sure to vote.






*I joke I joke.

gubbie

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0227/369891-ucd-usi-students/

Honestly, I'm quite surprised about the result. Maybe because of it passing in UCC 2 years ago despite talk of disaffiliating. I suppose it's a huge saving for UCDSU though!

Does anyone know what the vote numbers were?

Polar Ice

This has some details: http://www.collegetribune.ie/index.php/2013/02/live-blog-usi-and-ents-referenda-count/

errlloyd

Only faculty we lost was Vet.

errlloyd

Only faculty we lost was Vet.

gubbie

Polar Ice wrote: »

This has some details: http://www.collegetribune.ie/index.php/2013/02/live-blog-usi-and-ents-referenda-count/

That's an awful turnout

Polar Ice

Ha! 18 votes in blackrock. Seems about right.

P_1

Poor turnout to be fair, I wonder if that was due to a general cynicism of student politics.

I know when I was in UCD I really could not have given 2 you know whats about student politics

gubbie

P_1 wrote: »

Poor turnout to be fair, I wonder if that was due to a general cynicism of student politics.

I know when I was in UCD I really could not have given 2 you know whats about student politics

Oh I know, but out of the 25,000 students in UCD you'd normally get about 4,000 voting in elections. There was an affiliation referendum held in UCC (with 18,000 students) last year where "There were 2561 votes for affiliation as opposed to 1049 against.". From what I remember there was pretty much no NO campaign either.

There is always the slight possibility that the yes side thought there best chances was to dissuade people from voting and not reach quorate!

errlloyd

Turnout was 500 votes higher than last years fees preferendum, which was run over a week with online voting. Tbh fees is also a simpler issue to tackle with and something you'd expect voters to be more passionate on.

Realistically that turnout is about 66% of last years Sabbatical election, which had a 4 way race for C&C, a 3 way race for Education and a 2 way race for welfare. As well as a whole new constitution, and two uncontested races for ents and president.

Generally turnout in SU elections is just pretty dire.


- Incidentally, it is also harder to vote in UCD than in other colleges, you have to vote at your polling station, you can't vote anywhere. We also don't keep the polling stations open for a huge amount of time.

It is sad it is low, but I don't think it makes this result any less valid.