Blade Runner becomes Blade Gunner **Mod Warning Read OP""

robinph

P_1 wrote: »

Wow I have to say that the wheels of justice seem to move a hell of a lot quicker in South Africa than they do here.

Any South Africans reading, is that the norm, do things tend to work so quickly?

This is just bail, not the trial.

P_1

MadsL wrote: »

It's a bail hearing, he's high profile. Nothing moving fast here.

Fair enough, stupidly I thought it was an actual trial. Now I feel silly

wonderfullife

P_1 wrote: »

Fair enough, stupidly I thought it was an actual trial. Now I feel silly

No need to feel silly.

It's not exactly normal practice worldwide for a defence team to outline their whole defence during a bail hearing. Most bail hearings focus on flight risk and being a danger to the community if granted bail.

In fact, in a lot of jurisdictions, you are forbidden to outline your defence during a bail hearing. Your solicitor/lawyer can point out some weaknesses in a prosecutions case but in most jurisdictions worldwide you are not allowed 'tell your story' like Pistorius did today.

In many ways, it's already prejudicing events. Planting a seed in the public consciousness (and in that of the jury) from the get-go, when really the only issue at stake should be whether you are entitled to be let out of prison while awaiting trial.

Micky Dolenz

This case has mistrial written all over it.

P_1

wonderfullife wrote: »

No need to feel silly.

It's not exactly normal practice worldwide for a defence team to outline their whole defence during a bail hearing. Most bail hearings focus on flight risk and being a danger to the community if granted bail.

In fact, in a lot of jurisdictions, you are forbidden to outline your defence during a bail hearing. Your solicitor/lawyer can point out some weaknesses in a prosecutions case but in most jurisdictions worldwide you are not allowed 'tell your story' like Pistorius did today.

In many ways, it's already prejudicing events. Planting a seed in the public consciousness (and in that of the jury) from the get-go, when really the only issue at stake should be whether you are entitled to be let out of prison while awaiting trial.

Cheers for explaining. Some cock up by the defense in that case

".....During the early morning hours of 14 February 2013, I woke up, went onto the balcony to bring the fan in and closed the sliding doors, the blinds and the curtains. I heard a noise in the bathroom and realised that someone was in the bathroom...."

So he brings the fan in first. At this stage he hasn't closed the door, blinds or curtains. Unless he walked in backwards, he had to have noticed that his g/f was no longer in the bed. How will he explain that?

Rascasse

P_1 wrote: »

Cheers for explaining. Some cock up by the defense in that case

Well, not really. There is a very real and serious risk to his health and well being if he ends up in jail until trial. And as there's no jury in this case there no risk of prejudice. Anyway, going by many of comments on articles down there, much of the public seem to think he's guilty and would be happy to see him necklaced.

MadsL

wonderfullife wrote: »

Most bail hearings focus on flight risk .

Explain which cop is going to catch him if he does run, he's a speedy fecker! :pac:

opinion guy

wonderfullife wrote: »

how on earth does he get the gun in the pitch dark under his own bed yet fail to notice his girlfriend is not in the bed???? Even in "pitch dark" you'd hear breathing, snoring, tossing n turning, a silhoutte of a body.

I can find my way around my own house in the dark. I can find my phone on the bedside locker by feel, can go to the bathroom in the dark if I really want to (I mean...I don't do it regularly, but occasionally if I dont' want to put on the lights.) I dislike guns so failing an apocalypse don't see myself owning one, but if I did feel a safety need to keep one under the bed, I'd be damn well able to find that in the dark too.

3. Most crucially, why on gods green earth would a burglar break in to an upstairs toilet and lock him/herself in the toilet? It's like WTF! "i'm here to steal the millionaires sh1t but i'll just lock myself in here for a dump first!!"

Well there were supposedly ladders at the windows weren't there? He could have thought a burglar climbed a ladder into a bedroom. Also, if the guy is gripped by fear would he be 100% logical? If you recall the olympics when he lost a race he accused a guy of cheating by using longer prosthetics - he does seem to have a hint of paranoia about him. I do find it believable that a famous paraplegic, who had received death threats (if that is true), and possilby had a hint of paranoia in him could jump to conclusions if he heard unexpected noises at night. Don't you? I mean that is possible.

Allyall wrote: »

It may not be, but it still is a weird choice of words

Weird for an Irish person. It might not be weird for a South African

Out of curiosity, is anyone here thinking it is possible that he may have been out getting air, heard the noise, and frightened, grabbed a gun and shot the door 4 times while shouting at her to ring the Police?

Yeah I think its possible. I find the fear part quite believable to be honest.

I guess it will come down to the forensics

wonderfullife

opinion guy wrote: »

1.I can find my way around my own house in the dark. I can find my phone on the bedside locker by feel, can go to the bathroom in the dark if I really want to (I mean...I don't do it regularly, but occasionally if I dont' want to put on the lights.) I dislike guns so failing an apocalypse don't see myself owning one, but if I did feel a safety need to keep one under the bed, I'd be damn well able to find that in the dark too.




2.Well there were supposedly ladders at the windows weren't there? He could have thought a burglar climbed a ladder into a bedroom. Also, if the guy is gripped by fear would he be 100% logical? If you recall the olympics when he lost a race he accused a guy of cheating by using longer prosthetics - he does seem to have a hint of paranoia about him. I do find it believable that a famous paraplegic, who had received death threats (if that is true), and possilby had a hint of paranoia in him could jump to conclusions if he heard unexpected noises at night. Don't you? I mean that is possible.

1. My point was not about being able to find his gun. My point was the gun, in his words, was underneath the bed. If you have to go to your bed, reach underneath it to get your gun, dark or no dark you should be able to make out if there is a body in the bed. Either by sight or sound.

Moreover, if you are in a state of panic and have to go to the bed to get a gun, then is probably a good time to warn the person you love that you are in danger. Given she is in the bed you are reaching under to get a gun.


2. If we buy that Pistorius lived in constant fear, there are 2 things that make very little sense.

a) why on earth do you leave a ladder up at night leading to an upstairs window? If the place is really so dangerous, surely take the ladder down otherwise you are inviting trouble

b) If the place is so dangerous, how come you sleep with the sliding doors to the balcony open? He was so fearful he decided to leave a ladder leading up to a bedroom window and a balcony sliding door open!! Jesus, that's almost like leaving your front door open and then moaning when someone walks in and robs the place!!

In short, paraplegic or not, he was obviously not as "fearful" as he made out. If i lived in fear, i'd be making sure every window was shut and door locked before i went asleep. And i definitely would not leave a ladder outside an upstairs window.

His story is nonsensical. Those wishing to believe in his innocence may find it plausible to a degree. On deeper inspection, not a lot he is saying is making any sense, even allowing for a supposed state of fear and panic.

Remember in all this, he lived in a heavily secure environment in a gated community with security present.

johnr1

I think to our ears as people who live in a normal society, the story sounds like an absolute crock of sh1t.
However as my girlfriend who is South African pointed out, the reality of living there is vastly different.
As a ten year old, she didn't stop to think about the rights and wrongs of it when she picked up a camping axe and stuck it in the back of the guy trying to rape/kill her mother.

Neither did her step father think too much about it as he charged the the guys in the corridor of their home and was shot twenty times in the act of giving her mother the chance to run for her life in a different incident a few years later. This having been beaten and tortured for four hours.
SA is an extremely dangerous society, where if you don't live by the old saying 'Shoot first and let God sort them out', you may very well die as a consequence. Many of her school friends ARE dead as a result of attacks in their homes.

So while his story sounds implausible, and most likely isn't true, it IS possible.

Forensics should tell the true story, and until they are available, all the armchair verdicts here are the biggest crock of all.

Scruffles

In short, paraplegic or not, he was obviously not as "fearful" as he made out.

paraplegic? there woud be nothing short of a miracle if we saw a paraplegic running around the track,pistorious is a double amputee.

robinph

wonderfullife wrote: »

His story is nonsensical. Those wishing to believe in his innocence may find it plausible to a degree. On deeper inspection, not a lot he is saying is making any sense, even allowing for a supposed state of fear and panic.

Remember in all this, he lived in a heavily secure environment in a gated community with security present.

Logic is irrelevant if he was in a state of panic and fear, whatever we think might be an obvious course of action in the cold light of day bears no link to what a terrified person living in fear and limited to hopping around on his knees might do.

It's going to come down to the angle that the bullets went through the door to the loo to determine which story is believed.

kraggy

robinph wrote: »

Logic is irrelevant if he was in a state of panic and fear, whatever we think might be an obvious course of action in the cold light of day bears no link to what a terrified person living in fear and limited to hopping around on his knees might do.

It's going to come down to the angle that the bullets went through the door to the loo to determine which story is believed.

How do you mean the angle of the shots? Wouldn't they be the same regardless of who he was trying to kill?

ollie1

Botha: the shots were aimed at the toilet bowl. The toilet is in and to the left.

robinph

kraggy wrote: »

How do you mean the angle of the shots? Wouldn't they be the same regardless of who he was trying to kill?

The police claimed he had his legs on, he claims he didn't.

AudreyHepburn

I really don't know what to make of this tbh.

On the one hand it does seem a bit far fetched to think that he could have mistaken his girlfriend for a burgaler or missed that she was not in bed with him.

But then we are all looking at this from the point of view of people living in a country where feeling safe in your own home is probably taken a bit for granted.

From stories I have heard you are not safe in your own bed in some places in South Africa. My great uncle tells me that you could be carjacked as you sit at traffic lights. They will simply walk up to you, shoot you and take the car. A guy in work who was born and reared there says some of his friends have bars across their bedroom doors to prevent intruders getting in and many of them have weapons in the house.

So in another way it doesn't seem completely off base to imagine that if Pistorius woke in the middle of the night in the pitch dark, living where he lived and heard some-one moving around he could have made a tragic mistake.

So it's a hard one to call.

Tipsy McSwagger

Prosecution has a witness who heard arguing non stop for an hour before she was killed.

robinph

Botha: to obtain the trajectory which created the holes, you'd have to be 1.5m from the door. BB

He missed out the vital bit of info which is how tall the shooter was when stood 1.5m away from the door.

ollie1

Botha: it appears the trajectory was down - from top down. (Angle from door to toilet seat)

Botha: the bullets went through the top part of the door.

robinph

ollie1 wrote: »

Botha: it appears the trajectory was down - from top down. (Angle from door to toilet seat)

Botha: the bullets went through the top part of the door.

That's it. Game over.

If they can prove he had his legs on then the rest of Pistouris story doesn't work. That is what they need to prove, not opinions about people thinking that they would be able to spot the difference between a pile of sheets and a person in the bed in a dark room.

ollie1

The police also found two bottles of testosterone and needles.

fishy fishy

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I really don't know what to make of this tbh.

On the one hand it does seem a bit far fetched to think that he could have mistaken his girlfriend for a burgaler or missed that she was not in bed with him.

But then we are all looking at this from the point of view of people living in a country where feeling safe in your own home is probably taken a bit for granted.

From stories I have heard you are not safe in your own bed in some places in South Africa. My great uncle tells me that you could be carjacked as you sit at traffic lights. They will simply walk up to you, shoot you and take the car. A guy in work who was born and reared there says some of his friends have bars across their bedroom doors to prevent intruders getting in and many of them have weapons in the house.

So in another way it doesn't seem completely off base to imagine that if Pistorius woke in the middle of the night in the pitch dark, living where he lived and heard some-one moving around he could have made a tragic mistake.

So it's a hard one to call.

He lived in a posh gated community with security.

honestly, have you ever thought that you had an intruder - what did you do. I know anytime I heard noises that were unfamiliar the first thing I would do is to wake up my other half - head to the kids room to make sure they are okay - thats your instinct. My instinct was NEVER to get out of bed without checking that my OH was okay, my instinct was NEVER to grab a knife and start stabbing in the area that the noise was coming from. (can't say gun as I don't have one).

When did his gut instinct kick in - seems to me like he didn't have one.

if he is so scared of intruders then the open window in the bathroom and the open balcony will be the evidence that will go against him. Did he leave them open deliberately to puff out his "story" - why where they open if he was that scared.

robinph

ollie1 wrote: »

The police also found two bottles of testosterone and needles.

I'm sure WADA will be interested, but doesn't really make any difference to this case for the police...other than as attacks on his character.

kraggy

robinph wrote: »

The police claimed he had his legs on, he claims he didn't.

Ah right. Thanks.

I thought when the poster mentioned angles he was talking about intent or lack of.

kraggy

So much of the case is put forward and defended in these bail hearings. Interesting system they have down there.

Makes you think that if we had a similar system here, would as many scumbags be out on bail only to commit more offences?

ollie1

Botha: a witness says the lights were on


Oscar said the lights had been off in his statement.

robinph

ollie1 wrote: »

Botha: a witness says the lights were on


Oscar said the lights had been off in his statement.

That would be useful additional testimony, but they need things they can actually prove...like the bullets trajectory. If there is multiple witnesses to the lights/ argument then it will help, otherwise it's just one persons word against another.

Not looking good for him now though based on the police initial claims of evidence.

fishy fishy

its all coming out in the wash now

neighbors heard heated conversation for an hour beforehand.
they heard a woman scream before shots fired.
no calls were made from 2 phones or 2 blackberries in the bedroom to police or ambulance
shot in the hip, elbow and head
shortly after this happened his family were trying to access his offshore account details in his safe.
there is no record of any death threats or any other threats with the police, that OP said was happening to him

all according to what is going on at the moment in the court

robinph

Earlier the cop said that the shooter must have been shooting downwards from a stood position, now he has just changed his mind and agreed with the defence that the height of the shots matches Pistouris claim of shooting from a position without his legs on.

April O Neill

johnr1 wrote: »

Forensics should tell the true story, and until they are available, all the armchair verdicts here are the biggest crock of all.

Well, I don't think anyone thinks their view is anything other than speculation at this stage.

It sound be pointed out though that it often takes more than forensics to solve a case. People think it's the be all and end all. The CSI effect.

Frank Bullitt

The witnesses house who heard the argument is also 600 meters away from Oscars house.

pickarooney

He could reasonably claim that when he shouted to her that there was a burglar she locked herself in and said nothing so as not to give away her position to the alleged intruder.

robinph

Gintonious wrote: »

The witnesses house who heard the argument is also 600 meters away from Oscars house.

That witness is now pretty much useless and anything they may say in a trail could safely be ignored, they also claimed to have heard 8 shots when there was only four.

davet82

Gintonious wrote: »

The witnesses house who heard the argument is also 600 meters away from Oscars house.

must have been some row!

Idioteque

I just can't understand how anyone, upon hearing what they thought was an intruder, would not:

(A) Turn to the person in bed beside them to see if they were woken by the noise also

and/or

(B) Wake the person beside you to let them know there is an intruder

That to me is the most basic and strange thing about this...He HAD to know she wasn't in bed with him (pitch black or not)

fishy fishy

Gintonious wrote: »

The witnesses house who heard the argument is also 600 meters away from Oscars house.

if the windows were open what difference would that make.

robinph

Idioteque wrote: »

I just can't understand how anyone, upon hearing what they thought was an intruder, would not:

(A) Turn to the person in bed beside them to see if they were woken by the noise also

and/or

(B) Wake the person beside you to let them know there is an intruder

That to me is the most basic and strange thing about this...He HAD to know she wasn't in bed with him (pitch black or not)

Because he was already out of bed and on the balcony brining the fan in.

fishy fishy

robinph wrote: »

Because he was already out of bed and on the balcony brining the fan in.

could he not have went to alert her before he got his gun??:rolleyes:

Vudgie

As someone else has said it appears to be a very different judicial system in SA as so much of the evidence is aired at such an early stage.

The prosecution have limited opportunity to test the information prior to being cross examined; from the credibility of witness statements, ballistics to the general forensics.

The police chief has introduced some relatively prejudicial information this morning and you would hope for the sake of the case that it is solid.

seamus

fishy fishy wrote: »

could he not have went to alert her before he got his gun??:rolleyes:

He claims to have shouted at her to ring the police, thus "alerting" her as far as he knew.

kraggy

fishy fishy wrote: »

its all coming out in the wash now

neighbors heard heated conversation for an hour beforehand.
they heard a woman scream before shots fired.
no calls were made from 2 phones or 2 blackberries in the bedroom to police or ambulance
shot in the hip, elbow and head
shortly after this happened his family were trying to access his offshore account details in his safe.
there is no record of any death threats or any other threats with the police, that OP said was happening to him

all according to what is going on at the moment in the court

Latest reports from the Guardian website are that Detective Botha is now getting a hammering and that pretty much all the above can be counter-argued or explained by the defence.

1. The neighbours house is 600m away.
2. They can't confirm that it was the voice of the victim.
3. There's supposedly another phone.

He seems rattled (the detective).

EDIT: Also, it seems her bladder was empty, which is consistent with someone having gone to the toilet.

And the testosterone isn't actually testosterone. It's a legal, herbal supplement.

TwoBirds

I'll admit that I'm a fan of Pistorius and want to believe in his innocence, as much as I find his story incredibly difficult to buy. Hard not to believe him when he appears so distraught and emotional in court - I wonder what would happen if he was required to speak in court in his present frame of mind, might just crack and reveal all (assuming the affidavit is false information).

The defense seem to be doing a good job 'poking holes' this morning.

robinph

fishy fishy wrote: »

could he not have went to alert her before he got his gun??:rolleyes:

But he thought there was someone in the house, he is moving around on his knees and thinks she is asleep in bed. He therefore grabs the gun and heads off to investigate the noises whilst telling her in the bed to call the cops. No time to be climbing into bed and checking if the sheets on the other side actually contain his sleeping girlfriend, and climbing is probably the right word seeing as he's on his knees.

Frank Bullitt

fishy fishy wrote: »

if the windows were open what difference would that make.

Haha, quite a lot.

Apparently this made everyone in the court gasp.

davet82

Hold up for a second...

This couple were only together since november gone? And police had been called out to the house before over domestics?

Jesus some women are crazy...

pickarooney

If he doesn't get released, I'm calling the headline
"No bail for Stumps as bat strikes maiden"


/gets coat and book on cricket basics

davet82

pickarooney wrote: »

If he doesn't get released, I'm calling the headline
"No bail for Stumps as bat strikes maiden"


/gets coat and book on cricket basics

and you're outta heeeere!!!

---

>

kraggy

Detective Botha has just admitted that the police didn't check to see if Pictorius called NetCare ambulance.

He did call them. At 3:19.

Why the hell wouldn't they check that out?

And Detective Botha has just admitted that there were no physical signs of assault or defensive wounds on the victim.

I'm no expert, but it's my guess that there's no way in hell the Prosecution will get to fight for a murder charge in this case. It's looking more like he'll be tried for manslaughter.

robinph

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/southafrica/9881941/Oscar-Pistorius-murder-charge-live.html

The testosterone claim, the most potentially damaging for Pretorius as a defendant and an athlete, turns out to have not been quite as clear cut as the officer suggested either (and was it perhaps deliberately, for effect that he said "steroids" then corrected himself?)

Far more holes appearing in the prosecution now than in anything that has come from the defence.