Marriage records

Elizabetha

Hi,
I have found my Great Grandfathers birth record, on it are his mum and dads names which is great, but I can't find a marriage record for this couple, my GG was born in 1887 so I'm assuming they were married in and around this time, any suggestions? I have even tried searches allowing for their christian names to be different....
Thanks

shanew

can you post their names and place of birth for their child ?

Also the 1901 census return for them might help, especially places of birth...

Elizabetha

yes,
Their child was William Clements born Athboy 1887
The parents are James Clements and Eleanor McCormack

Thanks

shanew

is this your James Clements in 1901 ?

Clements household, Winding_Harbour townland

James age 60 born Co. Meath.

and as a widower in 1911 .... High St., Trim

shanew

I'm not seeing any James Clements marriages in any of the Co. Meath districts between 1864 and 1889 - quite a few are in Northern counties, and the closest to Meath are a couple in North Dublin (city), but none that match to an Eleanor.

do you know where your Eleanor was born ?

shanew

Is this your William in 1911 ?

Clements household, Blessington St. Dublin

Three brothers, eldest William is age 36, so born c1875. Pushes the date of marriage back a bit....

Elizabetha

Hi Shane,
Yes I had seen that william on the 1911 census and assumed it was my william. I cannot find Eleanor McCormacks birth record, I was told that she was from Meath by my dad but he could of course be wrong. Im hoping to find some answers in the cemetries in athboy but Im not familiar with them or which one I should start looking in for that time period.

shanew

If those three brothers are the correct family then it looks like Eleanor would have been born well before the start of birth records.

Did you find her and William anywhere on the 1901 census ?


S.

Alicat

I think I've found a marriage that's worth checking. It's a stretch, seeing as it's registered in a place called Ballycastle, Antrim. I was playing around with the names on findmypast.ie and found this one, for a 'James M'Clements'. I think 'Allen M'Cormick' could possibly be Eleanor? Maybe it was 'Ellen' and has been transcribed incorrectly?

As I said, it's a stretch, but if it was me, I'd certainly be getting the cert to check.

I know not everyone has a findmypast account so I'm just copying and pasting the details here

First Name:James
Last Name:M'Clements
Country:Ireland
Category:Life Events (Birth, Marriage, Death)
Record collection:Marriages
Record set:Ireland Marriages 1845-1958
Year:1876
Registered Quarter/Year:1876
Registration District:Ballycastle
Volume:6
Page:107
Spouse Forename:Ellen
Spouse Surname:Cassidy
2nd Spouse Forename:Jane
2nd Spouse Surname:Connor
3rd Spouse Forename:Allen
3rd Spouse Surname:M'Cormick
4th Spouse Forename:Sarah
4th Spouse Surname:M'Grath

Elizabetha

No Shane thats the strange thing I cant find William on the 1901 census, I cant find an eleanor clements in meath either

Elizabetha

Hi Alicat, yes I had seen that on FMP and had wondered but I ruled that out as I was told that the clements family line had lived in athboy for generations, maybe my info was wrong

Alicat

Given the distance, and what you knew of the family, it's probably not the correct one. I just know it would be plaguing my mind if I didn't check it anyway! Information passed down through generations can sometimes end up like Chinese whispers.

Elizabetha

Yes, I've had relations send me in totally wrong directions before with wrong info, bless them!

shanew

I dont think that marriage fits - the potential matches list is possibly a little misleading for that entry. There seems to be 6 names on the register page, so three marriages not four as suggested by FMP. Three of the names are obviously female - i.e. : Jane Connor, Ellen Cassidy and Sarah McGrath.

Leaving Allen McCormick, James McClements and John Dillon as the grooms. Looks to me that the gender filter gadget on FMP is guessing that 'Allen' is a typo or variation of Ellen, when the numbers dont seem to support this.

There are about 28 Clement entries on the BMD Index for the Trim registration district (which covers Athboy), but no good matches for anything for James or Eleanor. See : Clements, Trim dist.

p.s. I'd watch for Eleanor being listed as Ellen also..

Elizabetha

Yes I think her name could have been shortened to Ellen because James Clements and Eleanor McCormack had a daugher called Ellen. Roots Ireland show two birth records both the same date for an Ellen and an Eleanor Clements, they are the same person as both have James and Eleanor as the parents

Alicat

Yes, I just checked it on the Ancestry.com search as well to compare, and that is very misleading! I knew the listing of 'first, second, third spouses' was misleading but now they're getting genders wrong too.

I wonder would it be worth looking for birth certs for the possible brothers (if that is the correct William on the 1911 census)? I see a John Clements born in 1882, registered in Trim, which would fit with the one on the 1911 census Shane posted.

With any luck, they'll list a mother as a McCormack. Actually, Elizabetha, is the 'McCormack' surname quite clear on the birth cert for William? I have a woman in my tree whose surname flicks between 'Waters' and 'Walters' depending on the transcription.

Elizabetha

The James Clements aged 60 in winding harbour, he is father in law to Ellen Doherty....... this could be my james but it records him as been married instead of a widower, if this is correct I wonder where Eleanor (or Ellen) Clements could be.

shanew

Elizabetha wrote: »

Yes I think her name could have been shortened to Ellen because James Clements and Eleanor McCormack had a daugher called Ellen. Roots Ireland show two birth records both the same date for an Ellen and an Eleanor Clements, they are the same person as both have James and Eleanor as the parents

Is Ellen birth the one in 1864 ?

Alicat

Does the Ellen Doherty on the census fit with the Ellen Clements you found on Roots Ireland, in terms of DOB?

Elizabetha

Yes Alicat it is McCormack on Williams birth record and on her marriage record (in fact on her marriage record she is Ellen so you are spot on Shane). Married in meath so Im assuming that she married in her home town, but she could have moved there at an early age? Im clutching at straws here.

shanew

if that Ellen is the correct family then I think our timeframe is a bit out.... and the marriage is probably before the start of civil records...

there are also these extracted births on FamilySearch which fit also....

Thomas Clements, 15 Sep 1866, Athboy district, ref 0975
Patrick Clements, 07 Mar 1869, Athboy district, ref 1081
Henry Clements, 12 Apr 1872, Athboy district
Catharine Clements, 03 Jun 1877, Co. Meath
Peter Clements, 27 Jul 1878, Co. Meath

Parents for all the above : James Clements & Ellen Mccormick

Might be worth checking for these on the census returns - particularly the less common names like Henry and Peter..

Elizabetha

Shane, are looking at the one for 11th June 1865 dunshauglin?

Elizabetha

Thats great shane, Im going to have a look at all that and see if it fits

shanew

Elizabetha wrote: »

Shane, are looking at the one for 11th June 1865 dunshauglin?

The one I was thinking of was the one on the BMD index in 1864, Trim district, which also appears on the Baptism Index on RootsIreland in Athboy RC parish. Parents names are matching James and Ellen.

but either way it looks like James and Eleanor/Ellen married before the start of civil records.

shanew

possibilities for Peter & Patrick Clements in Dublin in 1901