Should the GAA be getting ISC grant money?

Sparks

From Off the Ball on FM104:

Jerry Kiernan, former Olympian, has criticised plans for a 2 year deal between the Irish Sports Council and the GAA and GPA that guarantees an annual, government provided, €900,000 for grants to GAA players.

Kiernan was speaking on Off the Ball last night and asked why GAA players deserved the government grant money when other athletes are training harder and more often.

Does Jerry have a point? Should the GAA (who take in between €50 and €70 million a year) be getting grants from the same pot that the shooting sports (who get between €50 and €70 thousand a year from the ISC) get theirs from?

Cass

What does the GAA do with it's money. Very long answer no doubt, but ball park. What are their costs? Their players don't get paid do they. I know they finance some schemes, but where does their money go that 50-70 million doesn't cover it, and an extra €900K will help.

Considering the majority (actually all) of NTSA/ISSF shooters, F-Class, NASRPC, etc shooters all have to finance things themselves. From gear, to guns, to time (yes that costs money), travel, etc, etc.

Sparks

Well, their accounts start on page 74 here (man, I wish we had a million euro just for marketing, or three million just for staff, or a half-million just for IT costs... pg.88 in case you're looking)

Cass

Holy S**t. :eek:

They already receive between 2.8 - 3.9 million per year in government funding. Now not to nit pick, i ask because i genuinely do not understand accountancy, but administrative costs run at 6.7 million. What does that cover? Game development 9 million. Kinda vague. Also does county/provincial distributions not constitute the same thing as development. I know one is classed as developing and the other probably as "payouts", but for what, and to whom?


This is not really aimed at picking through the GAA to find faults, but more so from the point of view that they raise millions every year, are funded, and receive grants. Yet they now dip into a 900K pool that would fund some of our top shooters for the year.

4gun

There are top class facilities in nearly every pitch in the country, look at the services they provide to children by means of fitness and social events,
How many members in the GAA compared to those in target shooting clubs,
1,000,000 v 1000 ?
Just because the cost of equipment varies greatly from one sport to another, boots, etc V guns, does not mean they should get extra. By way of legislation the GAA are entitled to a proportion of the grants, They pump it back into local communities.
To sum up the GAA contributes more to the well being of the Irish society than any other organisation.

Sparks

I think you've got the argument backwards there.
Feed *any* sport that much money a year, give *any* sport that much marketing a year, give *any* sport that much of a monopoly of the local facilities, and that sport will become dominant.

But if you have only the one sport available, you don't get the health benefits as a society, because most people won't be playing sport; just the ones who suit the one with the monopoly (seriously, try finding any sport other than men's football in Kerry sometime, it's ridiculously difficult - even women's football is a much-ignored, underfunded poor cousin). That's not something a state grant should be supporting, IMHO.

Cass

Before you or any other person thinks i am taking a pot shot at the GAA let me say i'm not. I'm asking a question.

They receive over 3 million per year in funding already without their own revenue from sales, etc. So cost of gear has nothing to do with it. Plus most people in the GAA buy their own anyway so if anything it makes a stronger case that they could easily buy far more equipment with less money.

My point is for a group that has sales, funding, and revenue going into the tens of millions why would they get another 900K. We have people trying to compete at the top level of their chosen shooting sport only to be knocked back by not only a lack of funding but the absence of it.

As for your numbers. There are thousands of shooters in this country taking part in a multitude of disciplines. Clays, pistol, rifle, long range, benchrest, etc. All of them pay their own way. If they cannot afford it we are not represented in some events. We used to get a small grant and some funding but that dried up some years back.

So i'm not saying the GAA should not get it, just when some sports receive no funding, and others that seem to be well able to maintain their own self do it makes me wonder.

It wasn't me!

I have to say, while I think they're a massive, massive sink for sports funding (And not necessarily an efficient one, since corruption at local level in the GAA appears to be rife from what I've seen and heard and they could actually fund themselves to a much larger extent) I would absolutely love to have the infrastructure and level of engagement that the GAA has. 4Gun is right. Imagine you could find a 10/50/300m range within twenty miles of anywhere in the country with the standard of facilities you could expect to find in a GAA facility inside that radius of you? What we could do with a tenth the funding would be fantastic.

Cass

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Imagine you could find a 10/50/300m range within twenty miles of anywhere in the country with the standard of facilities you could expect to find in a GAA facility inside that radius of you? What we could do with a tenth the funding would be fantastic.

That would be great, no doubt. However every range is built, and funded by private operators usually from their own pockets at the start. Each person attending funds their own shooting, gear, etc.

As you said imagine what could be achieved with a tenth of the same funding. Nothing overly fancy. Just some basic facilities, with junior programs, etc. Programs to encourage the sport, and support teams willing to travel.

I mean we had shooting before we had the GAA.

4gun

Kerry had produced some quality athletes in a huge variety of sports.


They havn't become the "dominant" because of the money that has been pumped in to promote their brand of sports, It stars local with local people taking an interest in their community, giving up their spare time to train youngsters, carry them to matches, provide facilities that are relatively free to any member ,
People are free to choose what sport they participate in, GAA feeds to other sports like Rugby, soccer to name but a few.
Look at the contribution to health, There would be a lot less fatties running around if they got involved in GAA which is cheaper that most other like sports.
Certainly cheaper that going to a gym,

They get a proportionate amount of the grants, The return contribution to local communities by far exceeds what they receive,
What has the shooting community contributed to society?
It is a sport that you really have to participate in to get the satisfaction.
How many people love watching Hurling or football at any level by never really played it them selves

It wasn't me!

Oh, definitely agreed. What I'm saying is I would love to see a tenth of the funding coming in to build ranges and facilities, plus adoption of the GAA's community model to get young people involved, develop and promote through the ranks. Obviously, my main area is the ISSF stuff, and currently, if you can get the scores and afford the trip, you're basically going to be getting on a plane. What I would love to see is a time when the NTSA has to say at the start of the season (or the end of it, in advance of the next one more likely) the trips it's going to send people on, the maximum team sizes and the dates for formal application. Then I'd like to see furious competition for those slots over several months and lots of matches.

To be honest, until we look at our internal structures, funding isn't a major benefit. Firstly, funding should be through the NGBs. Individual athletes should be dealt with directly through carding grants, with the main beneficiaries of funding from the NGBs being events, clubs and teams. In this case, the carding grant scheme would represent recognition by the sports council of the individual merit of the athlete in question. However, until the requirements are revised, they are not fit for purpose. Every shooting organisation that wants to be seriously competitive should look at how they're developing talent and how they propose to create more of it. That's got to be done through entry programmes, facilities investment, investment in coaching and admin personnel. These are all expensive but not a cent is yet going to any individual shooter through the NGB, as you can see. Again, that's the role of carding grants.

We need to attract communities around the sport, the way the GAA has done. We need to find a way for parents to get their kids involved from an early age, develop a social scene the way they have and if you manage to gain that sort of profile, you'll have people involved who you can turn into coaches (parents of kids taking part), structure, in the sense that people will turn up regularly and do what they're supposed to to get on teams and progress. Look at local GAA, football and rugby clubs, see what those guys do in a given week just to make their team at whatever level they play. When you can get the community aspect, you'll find that sort of dedication emerging too. How many Irish shooters in any discipline are there who put in that sort of time? It's not really our fault either; the current "scene" as such doesn't demand it of us. If it did, we'd be a lot healthier for it, and funding could be allocated individually through stiff competition to determine merit, which would drive up the level of intensity further.

4gun

Cass wrote: »

Before you or any other person thinks i am taking a pot shot at the GAA let me say i'm not. I'm asking a question.

They receive over 3 million per year in funding already without their own revenue from sales, etc. So cost of gear has nothing to do with it. Plus most people in the GAA buy their own anyway so if anything it makes a stronger case that they could easily buy far more equipment with less money.

My point is for a group that has sales, funding, and revenue going into the tens of millions why would they get another 900K. We have people trying to compete at the top level of their chosen shooting sport only to be knocked back by not only a lack of funding but the absence of it.

As for your numbers. There are thousands of shooters in this country taking part in a multitude of disciplines. Clays, pistol, rifle, long range, benchrest, etc. All of them pay their own way. If they cannot afford it we are not represented in some events. We used to get a small grant and some funding but that dried up some years back.

So i'm not saying the GAA should not get it, just when some sports receive no funding, and others that seem to be well able to maintain their own self do it makes me wonder.

Genuine question, but what sports receive no funding.

Soccer and Rugby are both professional sports here in Ireland,
they also receive grants as does Basketball, Boxing even Equestrian.
If your on the looking in, you cant really see whats really going on or where the money is being spent. they do have topay professional administrators at national and county levels, Its a huge organisation
If shooters feel hard done by, well it just goes to show that you cant please every one
Look at it in this perspective, the GAA does local fundraising (Church gate, ticket sales, lottos etc) what is to stop Shooting clubs from doing the same?
Would the community contribute?
The GAA spends a lot marketing.
What does the governing body for Irish shooting sports spend on it? ( we are definitely a sport that could do with some positive marketing)

4gun

Cass wrote: »

That would be great, no doubt. However every range is built, and funded by private operators usually from their own pockets at the start. Each person attending funds their own shooting, gear, etc.

As you said imagine what could be achieved with a tenth of the same funding. Nothing overly fancy. Just some basic facilities, with junior programs, etc. Programs to encourage the sport, and support teams willing to travel.

I mean we had shooting before we had the GAA.

Don't get me wrong here so I may be open to correction, I think the shooting range here in Kerry received grants, Are they from the same funds mentioned here?
People don't get paid to go to matches or players compensated for travel expenses. Think of it in terms of a service provided, spectators get entertainment, Players get the satisfaction of participation in the sport
We get get the same from shooting.
In order to qualify for local development grants you must first raise so much locally in the first place, Ireland has only 6-8%gun ownership so it not feasible to put in the finances necessary to develop shooting ranges.

Just for the record Cass, in case it may be taken the wrong way I am just trying to answer you questions and not arguing for arguments sake as some may think ( thats why I quote you post)

4gun

It wasn't me! wrote: »

We need to attract communities around the sport, the way the GAA has done. We need to find a way for parents to get their kids involved from an early age, develop a social scene the way they have and if you manage to gain that sort of profile, you'll have people involved who you can turn into coaches (parents of kids taking part), structure, in the sense that people will turn up regularly and do what they're supposed to to get on teams and progress. Look at local GAA, football and rugby clubs, see what those guys do in a given week just to make their team at whatever level they play. When you can get the community aspect, you'll find that sort of dedication emerging too. How many Irish shooters in any discipline are there who put in that sort of time? It's not really our fault either; the current "scene" as such doesn't demand it of us. If it did, we'd be a lot healthier for it, and funding could be allocated individually through stiff competition to determine merit, which would drive up the level of intensity further.

I would be fantastic, What shooting needs is a huge marketing drive firstly to try an show target shooting as the benign sport that it really is, It is probably safer than most contact sports, I know we have statistically less fatalities than the GAA.
The problem is the guys in charge, Either they lack the assertiveness or the vision necessary. Much of the finance for such such a promotion could come from manufacturers of shooting equipment who could then reap the benefits of a growing market.
Oh but got forbid we should draw attention to ourselves seems to be the prevailing attitude.

It wasn't me!

4gun wrote: »

I would be fantastic, What shooting needs is a huge marketing drive firstly to try an show target shooting as the benign sport that it really is, It is probably safer than most contact sports, I know we have statistically less fatalities than the GAA.

Most definitely. The problem is you need something to market. Currently, what we have is a series of ranges which are built by members, and which, while nice, certainly lack the shine and polish of some other national ranges. As much as I love them and appreciate the effort that went into them, they're not easy to market as elite sports facilities. That's just the ranges, as I say, since I think they're probably the big, visible things that can draw people.

The problem is the guys in charge, Either they lack the assertiveness or the vision necessary.

To be absolutely fair to a lot of our guys, they have a lot of ambition, but do really seem to feel the constraints of our current situation in a lot of regards. There are also issues in the sense that any capital they do have to invest would be difficult to spend on existing infrastructure, since they would be pouring money into something they don't own themselves. If I were shooting organisation X, and Bob over there has put together a range with a lot of potential, and I have the capital to make it really special, I'm not going to invest it in Bob's range unless I get control of it for my own purposes. That's an issue with such limited finance. Now, in a perfect world, there'd be enough money and enough ranges that if I did that and Bob told me to feck off afterwards, I could shrug and move on to the other lovely range five miles away, knowing there's another excellent facility that'll at least get used. Currently, any capital would be best spent on coaching, competitions and advertising/marketing, particularly to young people. I can definitely see where the entrenchment of some positions comes from, but again, you're right, there needs to be a stimulus for change there.

Much of the finance for such such a promotion could come from manufacturers of shooting equipment who could then reap the benefits of a growing market.

Afraid I think that's a total pipe dream. I mean, even if we got ten thousand competitive target shooters here over the next decade, that's not going to be enough to justify even momentary investment by manufacturers elsewhere, who already have huge markets to cater to. It wouldn't even register for them if we suddenly had another few thousand customers.

Oh but got forbid we should draw attention to ourselves seems to be the prevailing attitude.

Yeah, to a certain extent, definitely. Sparks used to get regular target shooting news printed in national newspapers, by agitating for it whenever there was something to talk about, and that was great to see. Most of this stuff is a matter of agitation and shameless self-promotion. However, we do have a culture of worrying about our privacy and security, and mostly quite rightly. I don't want to be robbed for being known for shooting, but I think it's still important that those who can do some good do it. Hell, if I ever win a major world level event, I'm not going to have my face pixellated out in the podium photo when Sparks gets it plastered in every news outlet in the country.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8KdH69bm9g

We could do with so much more of this stuff. Now, while this is a little hackneyed, it was essentially a novelty item then. Imagine we could get regular coverage of our major national events and the participation to make them worthy of spectating. We'd lose the dodgy music, there'd be less exposition and more hard data, and the competition starts to look serious. Our national champions would be known, if not at every kitchen table, among any sports enthusiasts. I don't follow GAA, but I know who won the last All-Ireland. Imagine GAA fans, who might not follow shooting at all, at least knowing who our champions were. Sheer numbers and exposure, and the structures to accommodate and use both, would get us there.

4gun

In reality IWM your kinda making my point, shooting is a fringe sport here,
and we cannot in all fairness expect it to be huge levels of finance.

As for promotion do we ever see shooting competitions advertised in newspapers, rarely.
We have a small community that caters for itself, within itself
I got into shooting purely by accident while buying fishing tackle, people in general are far more interested in shooting than we give them credit, how many conversations have you had with people who dont own guns but are very interested in them. They will ask you all sorts of questions about the subject.
There is a glaring lack of visibility to shooting in Ireland, (not so much in rural areas) If shooting events were more visible it would generate more interest.
The little bit of publicity we have had in recent times (Hector and Rachel Allen) have both shown stereotypical examples of those that shoot here.

Shooting in the U.S is promoted a way of life for those that are into the outdoors... well hunting anyway. You know what I mean fantastic views of mountain ranges, wild untamed wilderness, fresh air, Men that are at one with themselves and nature....you've seen the ads, you want to be part of it.
every thing else comes after.
Instead we have clips of men in straight jackets face down on the ground firing guns that probably cost more that a S/H medium sized family car.
and then we wonder why nobody is really interested

Cass

4gun wrote: »

As for promotion do we ever see shooting competitions advertised in newspapers, rarely.

Just on that point, it is not from the lack of trying. For 9 months leading up to the Creedmoor in 2011, we tried papers, local paper, national paper, TV, anything we could think off. No one, and i mean no one would agree to do a piece on the event even thought it's history is older than that of the GAA, and most other sporting organisations in Ireland. We even tried to buy an advert to get word out. We were refused.

So how do you suggest we gain funding through press coverage/marketing when the press are so anti gun?


When you have politicians vilifying guns, gun owner, and lumping us in with criminals, but on the other hand promoting GAA because they played it as did their Father, Brother, sister, etc. then the odds are stacked against you from the off.

If we had the GAA's marketing budget for development, and promotion of the sport could you imagine the change that would make. Our ranges, as it wasn't me said, are not exactly world class. However as most were built by volunteers/members with little to no money other than what was raised by membership fees, they were designed/built for practicality and not looks. Compare that to any other country were shooting sports is recognised, supported, and funded.

I understand we will never have the same setup as America, Germany, UK, etc. however any funding could be representative of the population taking part. So i wouldn't be looking for the same funding as the GAA as the population of shooters is not as big as those taking part in GAA, but how many people involved in shooting are limited by financial constraints leaving us so poorly represented in shooting in most areas.

I have seen it were some times/most times it's the person that can afford to go abroad to shoot goes rather than the person with the best ability.

4gun

I can remember that about the Creedmore, I cant believe that advertisement revenue was refused.

Look, I know it is easier said that done but what I said in my previous post was really a campaign to change the public perception about shooting sports,

People are genuinely interested in shooting, and its now always negative.
look at the growth of airsoft, I know its different, ( grown men playing with toy guns) There is a air soft in every Third Level Institute, We give toy guns to children.
This implies to me that guns are accepted as having a place in society, albeit toys,
Shooting sports are a invisible part of our society, I have always maintained that this is due to shooters themselves, We are so caught in the fear that the wrong type might follow us home, This is a legacy from the Troubles. If someone breaks in to your house he more than likely does not know that the occupier has guns, they may watch to find out what time your're home and so on.
St. Patrick's day is coming up with parades of local clubs and associations taking part in every local town. How many shooting clubs a taking part?
The GAA starts small in every parish in the country, This is where shooting promotion should start, parish magazines will carry stories about lads that win national events. small local papers starved for revenue will carry ads local advertisers.
going back to IWM youtube clip, Several of the contestants mentioned were in the army, the first thing any one will think is that " well it natural for them, they're army guys". Why not profile the farmers, carpenters, solicitors doctors, Photographers and all the other professions that shoot as a pastime.
Promote the health benefits (In light of the Horse meat scandal at least we know what we are eating) there are so many different ways it could be done,different approaches that could be taken,
Such would have to be a coordinated effort but the entire shooting community, from clay to air shooters.
Were there any ads for the game fairs taken out in national papers, How many shooting stands are present at county shows? (I'm asking because I dont know)

You dont have to have a gun present to promote an idea.

LIFFY FISHING

There is no point in arguing the point GAA = TD's votes= pump it back where the votes come from.
The Catholic church has lost its power base in Ireland its the GAA which is the real religion in the country and they get what they want when they want it as they controll the governments powerbase in rural regions, so the government of any colour will pamper the membership, there are lots of sports neglicted in Ireland becsuse it doesent have ( and sorry to say) the culshie factor.

Sparks

4gun, they're all great ideas.... but they're old ideas and they've been tried before and without the money or the staff, they get crucified by the 2% rule. (And you might not believe anyone would turn down ad revenue, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen, and I'm speaking from personal experience).

The GAA however, can throw money at the problem and overcome that; and when there's an NGB up top with a budget of 50 to 70 million euros, you'd be surprised how fast that 2% rule becomes the 20% rule, not always for the best reasons.

This isn't something that the ISC grants should be used to exacerbate; they should be used to support other sports to give them a fair chance. Instead, they're locked out of facilites in SportsHQ, they're relegated to second-class citizens in policy documents, and they're not just starved of money, but forced to jump through hoops for the pittance they get - hell, half the nasty political ****e in our sports in the last two decades has come about because of those ISC hoops.

And that's before you mention the point that we have a hell of a lot more to overcome than the GAA. You don't see them having to give two character references to own a hurley...

And it's not mentioning the point that the ISC was very vocal to other sports that it didn't fund athletes, it invested in them and it expected to see medals or high finishes in international matches in return. The GAA just doesn't do international at all (don't give me that "international rules" nonsense, I wasn't born yesterday). So they want carding grants for national competitions, which we aren't allowed get, despite being more than able to pay their players three times the maximum amount you can get from carding without suffering any financial hardship? And that comes from the pot that would fund our athletes? How's that fair?

Grizzly 45

Micheal Lowery being a fine case in point in Nth Tipp. Sponsors every last broken hurley and slither that needs replacing!:rolleyes:

Simple fact is folks ,we are the red haired bastard children of Irish sports.
No matter WHAT we do it will not be reported or supported enmasse by the public,by fear,ignorance or indifference,and certainly not by the media as we all know they will not report anything positive about firearms ownership,unless there is somthing bleeding or the potential to do so.

Then to screw it up further,all we need is the ICABS & Co letter writing goon squad to "ask" whatever private company who might be sponsoring us to stop doing so! Unless it is a pro fieldsport company, or somone who wont be bullied,most fold to the threats of "bad publicity"..FFS even Ryanair did.:eek:

If there was a choice between an Irish news/sports channel covering us shooting or a bunch of geriatics rolling balls around a lawn all dressed in white, or an exiting local chess match guess what would get the coverage??:rolleyes:

So who will risk that kind of precived bad publicity backlash by sponsoring us?


We are too small a market for any major investment by big firearm brand names to invest alot of money in,as we are considerd a spillover market for the UK.
And seeing that most big US companies assume still that we are under UK legislation:rolleyes:.All they know is the UK has banned guns,more or less,therefore a dead market,ergo we fall into the category of the UK.

Short story,we can expect SFA in the long run from anything that has money or influence in Irish society for shooting ,unless there is a ball involved in it somplace.

Its a viscous circle..Without monies or some sort of better societal support we cant advertise a pro shooting message,and without more numbers we wont get better funding..:(

4gun

Sparks, you say it been done before, why did they fail? why did they give up? maybe they aimed to high to start with trying for too large a publication.

I was recently considering the idea of starting a shooting club at the local IT, they have an archery club and as mentioned before an air soft,
I have no idea what is involved in doing it, or even if it is possible,
5-6 active members would be more than enough. The idea was to approach the local ranges, Castlemaine and Knocknagoshel to see if they would firstly allow student discounts for the use.
The real reason behind all of it was to make firearms more acceptable and more visible, to try and show people who it is exactly owns guns in Ireland

I have come to believe that people fear what they dont understand, the media fuels this fear,(Think back to that thread about the Daily mail)
Its up to us as individual shooters to counter this and promote the sport by promoting our selves,
If people ask me what I do for the weekends and such I tell them I go shooting and as I mentioned they are usually very curious and believe it or not usually see the positives more that the negatives.
You will get some that make a face when told about hunting deer and rabbits, but I have yet to meet an out and out anti.
To get back to the point of this thread, the GAA has put its self in the position that it currently holds by working very hard at its foundation level, ie. local schools and parishes.
Talent is nurtured right up to inter county level. They provide quality service and entertainment to the vast majority of Irish people.
It is for most children in Ireland their introductory sport, many other follow on later. To do what they are doing requires large levels of funding, do they give value for money, absolutely

Sparks

4gun wrote: »

Sparks, you say it been done before, why did they fail? why did they give up?

Lack of available time and manhours. The choice at the time was either watch the legislation so we didn't get banned or chase the media. The former won because having a sport was more important. And there are only so many manhours to go around. And you lose people to other things as well - I had to step back from the NTSA when I got hitched, and then I started shooting properly again and wanted to chase that, and then I had a kid, so there's just no manhours to give; and because of the 2% rule, we don't have a culture of giving the club a few hours a month. Things like work parties for fixing up clubs or the NGB equivalent, just aren't that big a part of our sport's culture, and that needs to be fixed, but the way it tends to go is someone sets the tone, does it for a few years, then has to step away, and then everyone drops it because it was based around that person and not the culture. In fact, out of our entire sport, I can think of only one good solid example of the culture surviving personnel changes and that's DURC, because they have enforced personnel changes in their committee (because they're students and students graduate) but the alumni members take a long time to walk away, if they ever fully do; so the current committee runs things but there's a large extended community there to support the culture from the outside so the committee never ****s about and ruins the club. That's how they've managed to run for over 50 years despite being student-run that whole time with nobody being around on committee for more than four to six years at a stretch.

I was recently considering the idea of starting a shooting club at the local IT, they have an archery club and as mentioned before an air soft,
I have no idea what is involved in doing it, or even if it is possible,
5-6 active members would be more than enough. The idea was to approach the local ranges, Castlemaine and Knocknagoshel to see if they would firstly allow student discounts for the use.
The real reason behind all of it was to make firearms more acceptable and more visible, to try and show people who it is exactly owns guns in Ireland

It's a good idea, but you need someone on staff to support it as well as students. Once you have those two things, just go for it. It helps to have a firearms dealer who'll help out at the start, and you can't **** about with paperwork or anything else - colleges are big on paperwork. If you want, we've a lot of paperwork framework in DURC that could be adapted, as does UCDRC.

I have come to believe that people fear what they dont understand, the media fuels this fear,(Think back to that thread about the Daily mail)
Its up to us as individual shooters to counter this and promote the sport by promoting our selves,

It's possible that I might agree with you

To get back to the point of this thread, the GAA has put its self in the position that it currently holds by working very hard at its foundation level, ie. local schools and parishes.
Talent is nurtured right up to inter county level. They provide quality service and entertainment to the vast majority of Irish people.
It is for most children in Ireland their introductory sport, many other follow on later. To do what they are doing requires large levels of funding, do they give value for money, absolutely

See, I don't agree with the premise here.
Does the GAA get into local schools and parishes? Yes.
Do they do so because they're that good or because they're that big? I think it's the latter. I've seen what happens when we try going in to the local schools or the scouts or whatever - we're not allowed to. And we've all seen the more overt examples of local GAA clubs actively preventing other sports trying to start up in the area, but for everything that makes the papers, how much more goes unreported?

It's a monopoly, pure and simple, and while I don't mind them being successful, I object to the money that should be used to fund smaller sports being used to fund GAA players when their NGB is making over fifty million euro a year and has a rule that they won't spend money on their players. That just isn't a good use of money.

Glensman

Sparks wrote: »

See, I don't agree with the premise here.
Does the GAA get into local schools and parishes? Yes.
Do they do so because they're that good or because they're that big? I think it's the latter. I've seen what happens when we try going in to the local schools or the scouts or whatever - we're not allowed to. And we've all seen the more overt examples of local GAA clubs actively preventing other sports trying to start up in the area, but for everything that makes the papers, how much more goes unreported?

It's a monopoly, pure and simple, and while I don't mind them being successful, I object to the money that should be used to fund smaller sports being used to fund GAA players when their NGB is making over fifty million euro a year and has a rule that they won't spend money on their players. That just isn't a good use of money.

The GAA assign local school devlopment officers who are only paid expenses. Many of them are famous locally and go into schools to take PE classes and teach skills and the benefit of sport.
This gives primary school teachers a welcome break especially as many of them are not sports orientated.

GAA infrastructure is also used for yoga, zumba, weight watchers etc etc.
The sport invests unbelievable amounts of cash each year at under-age level for boys and girls young and old.

I am an active shooter but the GAA si a ground-up organisation. Shooting is not...

sfakiaman

I don't believe that anything should be subsidised or grant aided other than seed capital for start ups. The begging bowl mentality simply feeds the needs of the politicians and civil servants who are the dead-weight cost of these schemes. The problem for the shooting sports is not the absence of other peoples tax euros but the active discrimination of senior civil servants and media 'opinion formers'. As for whether a multi-million euro earner like the GAA should get a government subsidy, maybe the government should be going to them for a dig out.

Sparks

Glensman wrote: »

The GAA assign local school devlopment officers who are only paid expenses. Many of them are famous locally and go into schools to take PE classes and teach skills and the benefit of sport.
This gives primary school teachers a welcome break especially as many of them are not sports orientated.

In other words, they get new members into the sport early and have support from the education system for that, support we're denied (what, you think we *haven't* tried going into the schools ourselves or something?).

I am an active shooter but the GAA si a ground-up organisation. Shooting is not...

Yes, it is, it's just one that (like many other sports out there) doesn't have a lot of money because the Big Five, and the GAA in particular, hoover it all up with an unfair advantage. When was the last time you heard of a Garda who got special dispensation to get off duty and go train for a shooting match? And what about the last time you heard of that for the GAA? Not all state aid is on the books as such...

Sparks

sfakiaman wrote: »

I don't believe that anything should be subsidised or grant aided other than seed capital for start ups. The begging bowl mentality simply feeds the needs of the politicians and civil servants who are the dead-weight cost of these schemes.

I'd agree with that if I hadn't just paid out nearly €250 in licence fees last month for which I shall receive precisely nothing in return. My road tax, my car licence fees, every other tax and duty I pay give me something in return even if only in theory, but not our licence. So as far as I'm concerned, it's not a grant, it's money owed...

4gun

Sparks wrote: »

In other words, they get new members into the sport early and have support from the education system for that, support we're denied (what, you think we *haven't* tried going into the schools ourselves or something?).

Yes, it is, it's just one that (like many other sports out there) doesn't have a lot of money because the Big Five, and the GAA in particular, hoover it all up with an unfair advantage. When was the last time you heard of a Garda who got special dispensation to get off duty and go train for a shooting match? And what about the last time you heard of that for the GAA? Not all state aid is on the books as such...

What are you going to do Sparks, Give guns to 4 year olds.
Shooting is a fringe sport, its never going to get the same funding that the GAA gets even on a percentage basis. Get over it.
Is shooting in the top 5 sports in any country?

Many other countries envy the structure the GAA has put in place, because of it we are well able to punch above out weight in sports like Rugby and soccer, both of which tag them selves on to the GAAs' shirt-tail. Almost every other sport in the country for that matter owes a certain amount of gratitude to them. (with the exception of those that do not require high levels of physical fitness)
To begrudge them anything is just begrudging for begrudging sake.

Sparks

4gun wrote: »

What are you going to do Sparks, Give guns to 4 year olds.

12 year olds would be about right for rifle.
We already have kids younger than that shooting in the pony clubs, just not enough of them and though we've tried bringing the sport to secondary schools, we've been turned away.

Shooting is a fringe sport... Get over it.
Is shooting in the top 5 sports in any country?

Yes. Every other country on the continent. It's the top sport in some, like Switzerland. It's in the top three in many.

Honestly, we think we're normal in this country, but we really, really, no kidding, are a seriously odd statistical outlier. Other countries just don't do things the way we do them and think we're a bit mad.

Many other countries envy the structure the GAA has put in place, because of it we are well able to punch above out weight in sports like Rugby and soccer, both of which tag them selves on to the GAAs' shirt-tail. Almost every other sport in the country for that matter owes a certain amount of gratitude to them. (with the exception of those that do not require high levels of physical fitness)
To begrudge them anything is just begrudging for begrudging sake.

That's a lovely philosophy, but it does rather clash with events like this one though. And I suspect that if I asked the Rugby or Soccer NGBs for their opinion on that philosophy, I might get an answer that differed from yours to a certain degree

4gun

I googled it for Switzerland no mention at all even here , http://popular-swiss-sports.all-about-switzerland.info/ or any other site I tried

We are talking popularity and participation within the nation,

From an insurance pow did ye seriously think that schools could even contemplate putting shooting on the curriculum.

Honestly, we think we're normal in this country, but we really, really, no kidding, are a seriously odd statistical outlier. Other countries just don't do things the way we do them and think we're a bit mad

.

I don't even know where that's going, why should we be like other countries,
some of them don't do any better.
In the context of what the GAA contributes to sport in Ireland, few countries have it equivalent.
The GAA is as much a part of our heritage and culture as Gaelic and St. Patrick, Guinness and our fixation with being anti-English.
Its part of who we are


Ever one here would like to see shooting being more popular, nobody is disputing that, but focusing animosity toward the Gaa source of funding is counter productive,
Why not run for TD in the next election as an Independent, promise stricter gun laws, but then like all politicians do the exact opposite once elected.
You'd have have a better chance
You wont change it, so ya might as well accept it

That's a lovely philosophy, but it does rather clash with events like this one though. And I suspect that if I asked the Rugby or Soccer NGBs for their opinion on that philosophy, I might get an answer that differed from yours to a certain degree

There is still more union between them than between the various Shooting bodies

patsat

Shouldn't this thread be in the GAA forum?