Should the GAA be getting ISC grant money?

Sparks

4gun wrote: »

I googled it for Switzerland no mention at all even here , http://popular-swiss-sports.all-about-switzerland.info/ or any other site I tried

This gives a reasonable intro: http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2010/09/swiss-shooting-traditions-a-nation-of-riflemen/

From an insurance pow did ye seriously think that schools could even contemplate putting shooting on the curriculum.

Yes. If you can insure a school to teach swimming to kids (it's part of the national PE curriculum) then you can insure them for shooting. Especially since at that age, this is what would have been used:

I don't even know where that's going, why should we be like other countries

You tell me, it's you that raised the point.

The GAA is as much a part of our heritage and culture as Gaelic and St. Patrick, Guinness and our fixation with being anti-English.
Its part of who we are

In that it's a modern invention written to appear ancient, yeah. Modern football as we play it today is so recent that if you look at the games we were playing when you and I were kids in the 70s you can see massive differences in the game - it's far slower, everyone's heavier, there's a lot more blood and physical abuse going on and so on. Go back another generation or two and it's nothing like what we have today. It's the proverbial axe that has been in the family since the time of Cromwell, which has only had three new heads and four new handles.

Ever one here would like to see shooting being more popular, nobody is disputing that, but focusing animosity toward the Gaa source of funding is counter productive,

It's not animosity.
It's asking why, when the GAA spends a million euro on non-core sports funding should they be getting €900k in carding grant money to pay their players just because they say they have a GAA rule prohibiting the payment of those players?
I call shenanigans right there...

Why not run for TD in the next election as an Independent, promise stricter gun laws, but then like all politicians do the exact opposite once elected.

Because I have a real job and **** to be getting on with?

You wont change it, so ya might as well accept it

Yeah, they used to say that about a lot of things. The DoJ and Gardai won't talk to us, we can't sort out the NRPAI politics, we can't have pistols, we can't have fullbore rifles, we can't win international medals, we can't train at the highest levels, we can't get everyone together in the same room to work together for any length of time at all...

...funny how we've done all those things in the last twelve years or so, isn't it?

There is still more union between them than between the various Shooting bodies

You might think that, but having seen the level of cooperation between them when the bull****ters and egomaniacs are kicked out, I know you're wrong.

Glensman

Sparks wrote: »

In that it's a modern invention written to appear ancient, yeah. Modern football as we play it today is so recent that if you look at the games we were playing when you and I were kids in the 70s you can see massive differences in the game - it's far slower, everyone's heavier, there's a lot more blood and physical abuse going on and so on. Go back another generation or two and it's nothing like what we have today. It's the proverbial axe that has been in the family since the time of Cromwell, which has only had three new heads and four new handles.

Hurling isn't much different to what my forefathers played. My uncles were hurling in the 50's and it's the same game. Football hasn't changed overly either if you watch GAA gold on TG4.

Like it or not, shooting is a niche sport. There would more people in Ireland taking part in competitive motorbiking/pool/darts than competitive shooting and I don't see much funding there. If the government were to heavily invest in shooting what sports/pastimes would it stop at?

I'm not anti-shooting or against government funding, but I can clearly articulate to anyone from any country the benefit of the GAA through providing supervised exercise, team building and their work in the community. It's hard to do the same for shooting...

Sparks

Glensman wrote: »

Hurling isn't much different to what my forefathers played.

...except that it is. The equipment has changed, the style of play, the rules - it's Trigger's broom is what it is.

That isn't, btw, a bad thing. It just means it's a sport like all the rest, not some ancient hibernian tradition untouched over the aeons... which seems to be what some believe.

All of which is utterly orthogonal to the actual point, don't forget.

Like it or not, shooting is a niche sport.

Like it or not, sport is a niche activity. You think the majority of people are active in a sport?

You think the majority of them are competitive in the "train to win" sense?

If the government were to heavily invest in shooting what sports/pastimes would it stop at?

I dunno glensman, how many Olympic medals can you get for darts?

I'm not anti-shooting or against government funding, but I can clearly articulate to anyone from any country the benefit of the GAA through providing supervised exercise, team building and their work in the community. It's hard to do the same for shooting...

I can clearly articulate the casualty rates for both.
I can tell you this - my kid's got his first rifle already picked out, but he's never going to set foot on a football pitch for the same reason he's never going to ride a motorbike without leathers and a helmet.

It wasn't me!

Sparks, as much as I'd love to promote shooting exclusively, I can't ever agree with not letting someone play other sports based on the risk of injury. In the first place, the risk is small, and additionally, it would be a massive social issue for the kid too. I can remember kids in school who had a pretty crappy time due to that. I played rugby for ten years and saw very few injuries which caused long term damage. Besides, the health benefits of those team sports are enormous, along with development of discipline and competitive spirit.

Sparks

Sure IWM. but you get all the benefits from team sports like basketball, and you don't have casualty rates. Besides which, sport in Ireland is changing - the latest Irish Sports Monitor report was very clear on this, team sports are just falling in popularity enormously and individual sports and sporting activities are becoming predominant.

Ash.J.Williams

ah sure the poor craythers...they are your postman and your binman, ordinary folk just like you and me...and they work all day, and still manage to kick a ball around at the weekend and they're the cream of the town..

It wasn't me!

Sparks wrote: »

Sure IWM. but you get all the benefits from team sports like basketball, and you don't have casualty rates. Besides which, sport in Ireland is changing - the latest Irish Sports Monitor report was very clear on this, team sports are just falling in popularity enormously and individual sports and sporting activities are becoming predominant.

I dunno, have seen injuries in basketball too in the very short time I played it. Fewer broken bones maybe, but that's about it. In terms of the increase in participation in individual sports, that may be true at adult level, but I'd say more than anything it highlights a decline in participation in team sports among young people. This is something that was very evident while I was at school and immediately afterwards. That's not a sign of a healthy move towards individual sports, but of a decline in sport as a whole that will have serious ramifications for individual sports as well down the line. Organisations like the GAA, schools football and rugby are enormously important for promoting sport in a way that means people will keep it up down the line. I know for a fact that if there weren't organised team training for rugby that people wouldn't have been doing anything on their own, team sport or individual. There's nothing wrong with kids getting into GAA, rugby and football. The more that do, the better the pool of athletic types we'll have feeding in down the line.

Sparks

It wasn't me! wrote: »

I dunno, have seen injuries in basketball too

Yeah, me too. Never saw casualties though - ie. deaths.
Plus, unless they've sorted out a lot of basic problems incredibly rapidly, I've heard too many horror stories from GAA coaches in Meath to trust Calum to it.
Who knows, maybe in a decade it'll be different. Or maybe he'll be at the Knabenschiessen

In terms of the increase in participation in individual sports, that may be true at adult level

If by adult you mean over-16, which is the group the report looks at.

That's not a sign of a healthy move towards individual sports, but of a decline in sport as a whole that will have serious ramifications for individual sports as well down the line.

There was a decline - it fell off year on year from 2007 through to 2010 but 2011 saw a massive jump of over 10% in participation levels - but almost universally the jump was in non-team-sports.

Organisations like the GAA, schools football and rugby are enormously important for promoting sport

That's not what the numbers say.
Read the report, particularly page 27. Frankly, it looks like dancing and yoga do more for sport than the GAA when you actually ask people what they do.

Hidalgo

Cass wrote: »

That would be great, no doubt. However every range is built, and funded by private operators usually from their own pockets at the start. Each person attending funds their own shooting, gear, etc.

As you said imagine what could be achieved with a tenth of the same funding. Nothing overly fancy. Just some basic facilities, with junior programs, etc. Programs to encourage the sport, and support teams willing to travel.

I mean we had shooting before we had the GAA.

While major redevelopments like Croke Park received lots of government funding (as did the Aviva), many local GAA grounds are sef-funded.

For example my own GAA club. Pitch was built in mid 1980s, all via local volunteer and fundraising efforts. Ditto with the dressing rooms which were renovated and a hurling alley added. Work was mosty done by locals be it players or ex-players and materials bought through money raised via local lotto, poker nights etc.
We did get somewhere in the region of a 2-3k grabt a few years ago but I can't remember if that was from the government directly of from the National Lottery. We also had a few workers doing maintaainance and paid via a FAS scheme.

Some clubs have top notch facilities today due to selling their former grounds in prime location to developers and re-building in a new location

Glensman

Sparks wrote: »

Yeah, me too. Never saw casualties though - ie. deaths.
Plus, unless they've sorted out a lot of basic problems incredibly rapidly, I've heard too many horror stories from GAA coaches in Meath to trust Calum to it.

It seems you are only looking at things from a shooting perspective and haven't had the the experience of the GAA some of the other members on here have.

I am a GAA member, I am also a member of a shooting organisation.
I think I have a bit of perspective and I cannot make any argument for GAA funding being reduced so shooting funding could be increased.
If we are to assume that this is a zero-sum game then I think the GAA has the proven track record to be awarded the funding...

(also, if team sports are declining in favour of indivisual sports then I would reflect on this as a negative turn, all through lives we have to work in teams to get the best results- the GAA helps to promote this from a Very young age)

Sparks

Glensman wrote: »

It seems you are only looking at things from a shooting perspective and haven't had the the experience of the GAA some of the other members on here have.

Yup, mine seems to have been somewhat worse. I'm not sure if that's because of the exposure I had to it at an early age or the exposure I had to its coaches at a much later age though, but frankly, unless GAA coaches are all inveterate liars, I can't think that everything's as rosy as you're painting it. There are worse sports; and most of the things that would worry me about GAA sports as a parent are the same as any power-based sport or contact team sport; but perfect it ain't and safe it ain't and pretending it's an acceptable level of risk is silly.

And as for the zero sum game argument, when shooting can spend a million euro each and every year on marketing and doesn't worry about VAT on ammunition, you'll have a point.
For now though, it's a nonsense to suggest that the GAA be allowed not spend some of it's rather substantial 70 million euro budget to pay its players but instead demand a grant from the government to pay them, from the same pool that pays for sports that the ISC's own surveys say are more popular.

Glensman

Sparks wrote: »

Yup, mine seems to have been somewhat worse. I'm not sure if that's because of the exposure I had to it at an early age or the exposure I had to its coaches at a much later age though, but frankly, unless GAA coaches are all inveterate liars, I can't think that everything's as rosy as you're painting it. There are worse sports; and most of the things that would worry me about GAA sports as a parent are the same as any power-based sport or contact team sport; but perfect it ain't and safe it ain't and pretending it's an acceptable level of risk is silly.

And as for the zero sum game argument, when shooting can spend a million euro each and every year on marketing and doesn't worry about VAT on ammunition, you'll have a point.
For now though, it's a nonsense to suggest that the GAA be allowed not spend some of it's rather substantial 70 million euro budget to pay its players but instead demand a grant from the government to pay them, from the same pool that pays for sports that the ISC's own surveys say are more popular.

Wow. There is a sport in Ireland that is more popular than GAA?
I find it hard to believe. GAA is the highest attended spectator sport in the 6 counties and that's in an area were almost half the population are from a background that would be unsympathetic to GAA.

Sparks

Glensman wrote: »

Wow. There is a sport in Ireland that is more popular than GAA?
I find it hard to believe.

From a few posts up the thread:

Sparks wrote: »

Read the report, particularly page 27. Frankly, it looks like dancing and yoga do more for sport than the GAA when you actually ask people what they do.

That report lists running, swimming, dancing, golf, cycling, soccer and yoga way out in front of GAA football or hurling. (It also lists individual exercise, but thats not really classed as a sport by the report, more as a physical activity).

GAA is the highest attended spectator sport

I'll bet that's the difference. The ISC were looking at how many people did sport because that's their brief - you don't get the heath benefits by watching sport. Mind you, if you were to talk spectator numbers, I'd want to see comparisons with soccer and rugby before believing the GAA was as popular nationally as you think...

Hidalgo

Sparks wrote: »

From a few posts up the thread:

That report lists running, swimming, dancing, golf, cycling, soccer and yoga way out in front of GAA football or hurling. (It also lists individual exercise, but thats not really classed as a sport by the report, more as a physical activity).


I'll bet that's the difference. The ISC were looking at how many people did sport because that's their brief - you don't get the heath benefits by watching sport. Mind you, if you were to talk spectator numbers, I'd want to see comparisons with soccer and rugby before believing the GAA was as popular nationally as you think...

I'd guess (and I don't have figures) that those include swimming/running for fun whilst figures for the likes of the GAA or rugby are for those who play competitively (I stress that whether its for competition or personal fulfillment, all sports should be backed and lauded)

Glensman

Sparks wrote: »

Mind you, if you were to talk spectator numbers, I'd want to see comparisons with soccer and rugby before believing the GAA was as popular nationally as you think...

From Wikipedia:

Gaelic football is the most popular sport in Ireland in terms of match attendance, and in 2003 accounted for 34% of total sports attendances at events in the Republic of Ireland, followed by hurling at 23%, soccer at 16% and rugby at 8%,[2] and Initiative's ViewerTrack study measuring 2005 sports audiences showed the sport's highest-profile match, the All-Ireland Football Final, to be the most watched event of the nation's sporting year

I think you could add camogie and handball to those figures as well to make up Total GAA.

Sparks

Glensman wrote: »

From Wikipedia:

Er, yes, and normally I wouldn't quibble, but in this case there's been no update to that section for almost a year (and that was to explain that "gah" was not actually a synonym for "GAA"...) and the data it's talking about dates from 2006 and we've seen a wee few social changes since then.

I think you could add camogie and handball to those figures as well to make up Total GAA.

Smells to me like adding together all the shooting sports - both olympic and non-olympic - and all the casual target shooting and calling it one sport...

Sparks

Hidalgo wrote: »

I'd guess (and I don't have figures)

Yes, but with the best will in the world, until you do have figures, it's not really worth talking about because anyone could say they have a different guess.

Hidalgo

Sparks wrote: »

Er, yes, and normally I wouldn't quibble, but in this case there's been no update to that section for almost a year (and that was to explain that "gah" was not actually a synonym for "GAA"...) and the data it's talking about dates from 2006 and we've seen a wee few social changes since then.


Smells to me like adding together all the shooting sports - both olympic and non-olympic - and all the casual target shooting and calling it one sport...

Fair enough, add the different types of shooting together.
Camogie is under the GAA umbrella (Ladies football have their own organisation)

Sparks

Hidalgo wrote: »

Fair enough, add the different types of shooting together.

That's a lot of very different sports

losthorizon

4gun wrote: »

To sum up the GAA contributes more to the well being of the Irish society than any other organisation.

This is just trotted out constantly without any sort of fact to back it up.

I mean more people in this country play football for a start (ie soccer).

Hidalgo

Sparks wrote: »

That's a lot of very different sports

Surely they're a variant of each other,
like lacrosse is a variant of hurling, and soccer/NFL/basketball are all variants of football.:pac:

Sparks

Hidalgo wrote: »

Surely they're a variant of each other,
like lacrosse is a variant of hurling, and soccer/NFL/basketball are all variants of football.:pac:

Yup, at that level they're all variants of each other.

Well.

You actually have to take another step back, so we'd combine all the shooting sports on one side, and on the GAA's side, we'd combine all the GAA sports with tennis, golf, rugby, soccer, volleyball and maybe basketball into a new NGB, Ball Sports Ireland... :pac:

4gun

Sparks wrote: »

From a few posts up the thread:

That report lists running, swimming, dancing, golf, cycling, soccer and yoga way out in front of GAA football or hurling. (It also lists individual exercise, but thats not really classed as a sport by the report, more as a physical activity).


I'll bet that's the difference. The ISC were looking at how many people did sport because that's their brief - you don't get the heath benefits by watching sport. Mind you, if you were to talk spectator numbers, I'd want to see comparisons with soccer and rugby before believing the GAA was as popular nationally as you think...

Sparks, what is it they say about statistics being made up on the spot,

Consider the maths, there isn't a parish in the country that does not have a pitch, with I estimate for my own parish( a small rural one) there are at least 200 members from underage right up to senior and junior for both male and female
How many parishes in country?
Your statistic may be for a group aged between 40 and the grave, the majority of Irelands population is under 40.
Nobody agrees with you on this issue of GAA funding ( except other begrudgers) your not going to convince anyone otherwise. Dont take it personally we all have our pet hates
Better off lay it to rest, and move on. Channel your energy to in a more positive way.........Here ya go........God, grant Sparks the serenity to accept the things he cannot change....Amen

It wasn't me!

To be honest 4Gun, I do think the GAA's position of not using some of their 70 million to pay their players rather than taking 900k off the ISC for it is ridiculous. They don't need the money. Other sports do. What I would love to see us take from the GAA is their infrastructure and promotion system. I don't begrudge them their success and I know how important they are for other sports, but taking money they don't need to pay players because of a self-imposed policy of not paying them from their own funds? That's bollocks.

Sparks

4gun wrote: »

Sparks, what is it they say about statistics being made up on the spot,

I don't know, but I doubt it involves a national survey of all over-16s with large sample sizes run every year for the last seven years or so, with fairly clear graphs illustrating the data...

Consider the maths, there isn't a parish in the country that does not have a pitch, with I estimate for my own parish( a small rural one) there are at least 200 members from underage right up to senior and junior for both male and female
How many parishes in country?
Your statistic may be for a group aged between 40 and the grave, the majority of Irelands population is under 40.

Okay, so you have back-of-an-envelope guesstimating. That's not invalid; it's a useful technique to get a feel for the answer of a problem.

However, it's trumped by actual data, which we have in this case.

Nobody agrees with you on this issue of GAA funding ( except other begrudgers)

And a fair few of the people in the GAA forum in the thread on this topic.
And a fair few of the people in the Athletics forum in the thread on this topic.
And most, if not all of the NGB admins (in every sport including shooting that's outside of the Big Five) that I've spoken to off the record about it over the last decade or so.
And a few of the posters on this thread.

4gun, I suspect that actual data may be the achilles heel of your argument here.

4gun

Sparks wrote: »

I don't know, but I doubt it involves a national survey of all over-16s with large sample sizes run every year for the last seven years or so, with fairly clear graphs illustrating the data...

Okay, so you have back-of-an-envelope guesstimating. That's not invalid; it's a useful technique to get a feel for the answer of a problem.

However, it's trumped by actual data, which we have in this case.


And a fair few of the people in the GAA forum in the thread on this topic.
And a fair few of the people in the Athletics forum in the thread on this topic.
And most, if not all of the NGB admins (in every sport including shooting that's outside of the Big Five) that I've spoken to off the record about it over the last decade or so.
And a few of the posters on this thread.

4gun, I suspect that actual data may be the achilles heel of your argument here.

To counter ....Where is your data,
Put up a few links.
Again your choosing which source of information to believe based solely on your own argument...
My guesstimate about numbers is more that likely to be closer to the truth that you may like believe ....Even by conservative estimating at as little a 100 members per parish and close to 2300 clubs in the country, would give you 230000 members. A child could work it out.
For the record ballgames in one shape or form have been part of Celtic society, Granted the GAA was only founded in 1884
But as you say shooting is older, guess the must have made better use of their time
Pushing shooting as sports option in schools was a pipe dream at best, It add nothing to the child's personal fitness, costs €€€€€. One accident (however minor) would put an end to it and with the way things work would cause a whole load of anti shooting legislation to be brought in.
I personally would rather teach my own child to shoot that to trust someone else who for all I know cares more about promoting shooting than the childs welfare..

Sparks

4gun wrote: »

To counter ....Where is your data,
Put up a few links.

4gun, I have already, in this thread, twice. It's what IWM and I were talking about above. Here: http://www.irishsportscouncil.ie/Media/Latest_News/2012/Irish_Sports_Monitor_2011_Final_Report.pdf
Specifically, look at the graphs on page 27:

Again your choosing which source of information to believe based solely on yqour own argument...
My guesstimate about numbers is more that likely to be closer to the truth that you may like believe ....

Hang on. I'm chosing the actual data over your guesstimate.
It's not like we're looking at two different surveys conducted independently here.
The argument of confirmation bias doesn't hold up under those circumstances.
And even if we had two studys, it's not confirmation bias to query whether or not a study has funding bias, so long as the question's asked honestly.

For the record ballgames in one shape or form have been part of Celtic society, Granted the GAA was only founded in 1884
But as you say shooting is older, guess the must have made better use of their time

Yes, but the ballgames that were around back then don't exist anymore and the modern game looks nothing like they would have looked.
I mean, by that argument, shooting could be said to be the same as archery.

Pushing shooting as sports option in schools was a pipe dream at best

And it got to within a whisker of happening.

It add nothing to the child's personal fitness, costs €€€€€.

Strange then, that this exists...

One accident (however minor) would put an end to it and with the way things work would cause a whole load of anti shooting legislation to be brought in.

True.
Which would be why we were going to use this:



And I can't help but notice 4gun, that this is the second time I've told you -- specifically you -- that. If you didn't know better, you'd almost think (given this and other past threads) that you were unconcerned with the topic and just wanted to argue that I was wrong (regardless of what I was saying) for personal reasons...

It wasn't me!

4gun, I don't know how on earth you get the idea that people teaching shooting are going to be more concerned with "promoting shooting" than safety and welfare. I've been teaching hundreds of students a year for most of five years now. Sparks has been doing it a lot longer than me too, and without any incidents. I assure you, how well they shoot has never given me any serious worries. How safe people are is a constant concern. Exactly the same argument could be made (and much more successfully, based on my experience of competitive physical sports) for any of the major ballgames, that those responsible for coaching are more concerned with results than the safety of their players. Competitive shooting has been responsible for a huge amount of personal development in my case and that of many others, from serious personal discipline in terms of training, to time management, to successful short and long term planning, mental strength and techniques which have, obviously, been immensely useful in other areas as well. In addition, you can't be a properly competitive rifle shooter without a pretty serious level of fitness and a good physical training programme. All well and good to say you would teach your child shooting, and for hunting purposes, that's probably fine, but unless I'm much mistaken, you're not a coach, so for a schools programme, which would be target shooting, a proper, qualified coach is the only person to do it. Same as you wouldn't assume you're the one to teach your kid rugby or anything else.

4gun

It wasn't me! wrote: »

To be honest 4Gun, I do think the GAA's position of not using some of their 70 million to pay their players rather than taking 900k off the ISC for it is ridiculous. They don't need the money. Other sports do. What I would love to see us take from the GAA is their infrastructure and promotion system. I don't begrudge them their success and I know how important they are for other sports, but taking money they don't need to pay players because of a self-imposed policy of not paying them from their own funds? That's bollocks.

Its not about not need it, they will put it to better use,
Building facilities for a fringe sport is a total waste.

Giving lads better shooting equipment is not going to make them better shooters.

No one forces them to take the sport up, nobody forces anyone into the GAA
but more people choose it.
Its participants for the most part are amateur, the top inter county may receive sponsorship through the organisation. Should the players go pro, the best players would then be drawn to the top and best funded counties.
Sparks mentioned how the game has evolved in the last 20 years like it was a bad thing (Faster and fitter players) imagine what it would be come if they were pro.
I'm done this topic, whinging and whining isn't going to change the way thing are no matter how loud it's gets

Sparks

4gun wrote: »

Its not about not need it, they will put it to better use,

I would beg to differ on that one.

Building facilities for a fringe sport is a total waste.

And on that one.

Giving lads better shooting equipment is not going to make them better shooters.

And on that one, having seen the cow sheds and broken-down airguns some of the pony club trains with.

No one forces them to take the sport up, nobody forces anyone into the GAA
but more people choose it.

But the data says that far more people chose other things than the GAA.
So even if we accept your argument (and I think it is fatally flawed myself), the money shouldn't go to the GAA but to other groups, all of whom are treated as minority sports by the ISC (bar athletics and soccer) and all of whom would see 900k as an enormous amount of funding.

Sparks mentioned how the game has evolved in the last 20 years like it was a bad thing (Faster and fitter players) imagine what it would be come if they were pro.

That's the same argument that's been made about every change they've ever made. It's done so much work on so many points that you'd think it'd be a bit weary by this stage.

I'm done this topic

Odd timing for that, isn't it?