woman = beautiful + strong?

--Kaiser--

Scuba Ste wrote: »

Not every man agrees.

I don't anyone said that at any point, speaking of the majority here

Scuba Ste

Table Top Joe wrote: »

So you think the majority would disagree with you?......

Judging by this thread I think so but I think a significant minority disagree with you which obviously goes against your assertion that all or almost all men find Katie masculine. Some do, you and others here, and some don't. Pretty much the same as everything in life.

The Pheasant wrote: »

Pretty sure table top Joe already referenced you as being the only guy on this thread to hold those views...anyway judging by the nature of your previous posts you seem to run in weightlifting circles so it's not exactly surprising the people you associate with find muscular women attractive

I don't run at all if I can help it :pac:.

Like I've said I don't think the women posted here are muscular. Very lean, athletic, toned yes but not muscular. So no, I don't find muscular women attractive and I don't think the people I associate with would either. The issue is the definition of muscular or masculine which is obviously different to different people. Which I think is fine tbh and I don't see why everyone should have to agree with your own or Joe's idea of muscularity or masculinity in women.

Scuba Ste

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

I don't anyone said that at any point, speaking of the majority here

It was said that pretty much all, if not all men, think one particular way. I wanted to emphasise that it definitely wasn't all.

I accept the majority here seem to disagree with me. It was stated that 'all' men found Katie and similar women masculine, then 'almost all' now it's just a majority.

Table Top Joe

Scuba Ste wrote: »

Judging by this thread I think so but I think a significant minority disagree with you which obviously goes against your assertion that all or almost all men find Katie masculine. Some do, you and others here, and some don't. Pretty much the same as everything in life.


.

I made that assertion in regard to this thread,i was pretty sure a man had disagreed but couldnt remember for certain,turns out a man did....you!


You have just said your probably in the minority,im agreeing with you

The Pheasant

Scuba Ste wrote: »

It was said that pretty much all, if not all men, think one particular way. I wanted to emphasise that it definitely wasn't all.

I accept the majority here seem to disagree with me. It was stated that 'all' men found Katie and similar women masculine, then 'almost all' now it's just a majority.

What? Everyone conceded that there would of course be a small minority of men who would prefer the muscular look on women

TheBellJar

The Pheasant wrote: »

What? Everyone conceded that there would of course be a small minority of men who would prefer the muscular look on women

In this thread. Not in general. Try posting this in the fitness forum and see the response you'd get - I assure you it would fall the other side of the coin.

Oh and there IS actually a world outside the internet. Do you speak for 'the majority' of them too?

The Pheasant

TheBellJar wrote: »

In this thread. Not in general. Try posting this in the fitness forum and see the response you'd get - I assure you it would fall the other side of the coin.

Oh and there IS actually a world outside the internet. Do you speak for 'the majority' of them too?

Fitness forum? Because they wouldn't be biased at all...how about we ask the gentleman's lounge? Surely that'd give a much broader demographic to ask from eh?

TheBellJar

The Pheasant wrote: »

Fitness forum? Because they wouldn't be biased at all...how about we ask the gentleman's lounge? Surely that'd give a much broader demographic to ask from eh?

You appear to have completely missed the point.

Scuba Ste

The Pheasant wrote: »

What? Everyone conceded that there would of course be a small minority of men who would prefer the muscular look on women

Right, I concede 'all' might not not have been used, I thought I read it said somewhere but can't find it now.

I never made the point that any amount of men like muscular women.

Again for those at the back. I've no problem with individuals' ideas of attractive or muscular. I do not agree with the generalised idea of muscular women.

The Pheasant

TheBellJar wrote: »

You appear to have completely missed the point.

Well what is your point then? You're saying I don't speak for everyone (I know I don't, and I said I don't. Several times.) and so rather than asking a large group of men with a broad range of tastes and preferences (as could most easily be found in TGC) you instead suggest posing the question to the fitness forum. Why? What possible advantage would that give in terms of establishing what the (actual) consensus is regarding this subject? None whatsoever. Other than the fact that you'd probably find a couple more people than you'd usually find in other forums that would go along with this quite frankly astounding self delusion.

ashers222

I'd be interested to hear the opinion of the male members of TGC, just out of curiosity. One of you men there, go and ask

I'm too scared to do it

Table Top Joe

Would be surprised if it was allowed in the TGC......would have to go to AH id imagine


Id rather not start that,i think ive had enough!

ashers222

yeah probably not a good idea

TheBellJar

I think it's for the greater good that I stop replying, there's way too much small mindedness in this thread for my low levels of tolerance.

As you were

--Kaiser--

TheBellJar wrote: »

I think it's for the greater good that I stop replying, there's way too much small mindedness in this thread for my low levels of tolerance.

Good, as you're just picking fights based on imagined slights

TheBellJar

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

Good, as you're just picking fights based on imagined slights

Hilarious.

I think you'll see I hadn't engaged with you at all in this thread - for good reason.

--Kaiser--

TheBellJar wrote: »

Hilarious.

I think you'll see I hadn't engaged with you at all in this thread - for good reason.

Because you're incapable of reasoned debate?

TheBellJar

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

Because you're incapable of reasoned debate?

Hahaha! Really? Have you read your own posts?

Oh dear..

rainbow kirby

Less bickering, more on-topic posts, or this thread is getting locked.

strobe

ashers222 wrote: »

I'd be interested to hear the opinion of the male members of TGC, just out of curiosity. One of you men there, go and ask

I'm too scared to do it

There's an equivalent thread to the 'Who makes you drool' thread that's on this forum over in TGC here that's nearly 2000 posts long.
Seems as reasonable a way as any to gauge the male members of TGCs taste in female bodies I guess. Seems to be a reasonable amount of variation in tastes but I think it's fair to say that 'larger muscled' ladies are not a popular theme at all.

--Kaiser--

strobe wrote: »

There's an equivalent thread to the 'Who makes you drool' thread that's on this forum over in TGC here that's nearly 2000 posts long.
Seems as reasonable a way as any to gauge the male members of TGCs taste in female bodies I guess. Seems to be a reasonable amount of variation in tastes but I think it's fair to say that 'larger muscled' ladies are not a recurring theme at all.

Nor will you find muscular female physiques in lads mags or Playboy as they pander to majority tastes

Millicent

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

Nor will you find muscular female physiques in lads mags or Playboy as they pander to majority tastes

Do they cater to them or do they influence them, though, is the question there.

ashers222

strobe wrote: »

There's an equivalent thread to the 'Who makes you drool' thread that's on this forum over in TGC here that's nearly 2000 posts long.
Seems as reasonable a way as any to gauge the male members of TGCs taste in female bodies I guess. Seems to be a reasonable amount of variation in tastes but I think it's fair to say that 'larger muscled' ladies are not a popular theme at all.

I don't disagree with you or the idea that muscle bound women are not attractive to men. I'd have a general idea myself tbh, I was just responding to the previous posters request for a larger male audience. I personally don't try to attract male attention and I do consider my physique masculine and I prefer it that way. (in fact I work hard to ensure it is)
Doesn't mean I'm not attractive or "beautiful" though, just not to men. (which is how I like it)

The premise of this thread sets out to determine if strong women are attractive, but the assumption is that it's men who get to define what is or is not. That's a bit erroneous in my opinion but I understand this is the ladies lounge and the vast majority of women here seek male approval wrt their physical attractiveness.
As it happens I realised most difference between the fit and toned and the muscular girls in the pics is that the toned girls also have incredibly fake boobs.

Stench Blossoms

ashers222 wrote: »

As it happens I realised most difference between the fit and toned and the muscular girls in the pics is that the toned girls also have incredibly fake boobs.

You keep bringing up their boobs.

I think you secretly want a boob job

ashers222

Stench Blossoms wrote: »

You keep bringing up their boobs.

I think you secretly want a boob job

Only if it were to have them removed. I have in the past bound my boobage to streamline my chest
No but really I think that what men define as feminine is probably as influenced by their boobage as anything else.

(trust me if I had boobs I'd be sad )

The Pheasant

Millicent wrote: »

Do they cater to them or do they influence them, though, is the question there.

If there was a decent demand for it at all they'd be catered for

The Pheasant

I'd just like to say: Ashers, the whole way through this thread your posts have been a breath of fresh air - you're the only one willing to have a reasoned discussion, and for that I thank you

ashers222

For the sake of this thread I'm a boi, what you can't see in my pic is my boxer shorts.
I am biologically female though so I do have a female perspective too. (I also know just what's required to make my body look more masculine because I've been doing it for years)

Millicent

The Pheasant wrote: »

If there was a decent demand for it at all they'd be catered for

Trace it back through history--even just Playboy's history--and chart how the body shapes have changed though.

Definitions of what's attractive change generation to generation. It's influenced strongly by art and popular culture as well as by symbols of wealth. When the fattest people were the richest, that's what was defined as attractive. Now that the wealthiest celebrities are slimmer, that's what's considered attractive. And then, across other cultures and ethnicities, the definition's different again.

The definition of attractiveness is much more malleable and subject to change than many here are arguing it to be.

Millicent

The Pheasant wrote: »

I'd just like to say: Ashers, the whole way through this thread your posts have been a breath of fresh air - you're the only one willing to have a reasoned discussion, and for that I thank you

Ah well cheers for that. Wish I'd read that before I went to the bother of typing out a considered response. :pac: You're being a bit unfair to other posters there, too. Just because they don't necessarily agree with you, doesn't make them unreasonable. There were a lot of good posts on this thread.

ashers222

Millicent wrote: »

Ah well cheers for that. Wish I'd read that before I went to the bother of typing out a considered response. :pac: You're being a bit unfair to other posters there, too. Just because they don't necessarily agree with you, doesn't make them unreasonable. There were a lot of good posts on this thread.

well I agree, hope no one is offended.

The Pheasant

Millicent wrote: »

Ah well cheers for that. Wish I'd read that before I went to the bother of typing out a considered response. :pac: You're being a bit unfair to other posters there, too. Just because they don't necessarily agree with you, doesn't make them unreasonable. There were a lot of good posts on this thread.

No, because literally every man who has posted on this thread (with the exception of Scuba ste) has stated that they don't find muscular women attractive. We've referred to the fact that if muscular women were found to be attractive by men they'd feature much more frequently in mainstream media - which they don't. Because the simple fact is that the vast majority of men aren't attracted to that kind of thing. I'm sorry but there's no other way to put it...it gets kind of annoying when the guys on this who obviously know what guys like, just keep getting ignored....

Zombienosh

What type of strength are we talking about here, physical? Any type of strength is beautiful. There seems to be some old view of beauty being delicate and in need of protection but true beauty comes from strength.

The Pheasant

Zombienosh wrote: »

What type of strength are we talking about here, physical? Any type of strength is beautiful. There seems to be some old view of beauty being delicate and in need of protection but true beauty comes from strength.

Physical strength as in muscularity

Zombienosh

I think that's beautiful. I know a lot of women assume that working out and lifting weights will leave them bulky and masculine when it really doesn't unless they want to become a bodybuilder and take hormone altering drugs.

ashers222

mad that I feel I have to apologize all the same but I could feel the feminine heart of the ladies lounge burning into my soul for accepting that compliment. (and screamig fcuk off ashers just fcuk offf!)
k, not all muscular women are masculine, not all curvy women are feminine. Men "generally" don't want to be with someone who is physically stronger or more masculine than they are. (although some men do) Think that's all my bases covered.

*going to pump me guns

Zombienosh

If a man is intimidated by the strength a woman, that is his own insecurity.

ashers222

Zombienosh wrote: »

If a man is intimidated by the strength a woman, that is his own insecurity.

I think the men here who have admitted to not being attracted to overly muscular women are of the kind who like being the physically stronger member of a partnership, they want to be protective and caring in a physically strong way. I get that, I do. I want to be that too. I know many women want to be with a man who is protective and caring physically so it's not unreasonable to see why those dynamics might come into play here.

Also, we've used examples of different kind of fitness and strength to try and determine what is essentially "masculine" and there is a difference between amfit and toned woman and a woman with a lot of muscle mass (and not surprisingly, boobs!)

Zombienosh

Guess I'm late to the party then.

Millicent

The Pheasant wrote: »

No, because literally every man who has posted on this thread (with the exception of Scuba ste) has stated that they don't find muscular women attractive. We've referred to the fact that if muscular women were found to be attractive by men they'd feature much more frequently in mainstream media - which they don't. Because the simple fact is that the vast majority of men aren't attracted to that kind of thing. I'm sorry but there's no other way to put it...it gets kind of annoying when the guys on this who obviously know what guys like, just keep getting ignored....

Can you not see the chicken/egg argument though? Nothing you've said there refutes my points about how tastes are influenced and certain body types popularised.

Eta: And why speak for all men? I know a fair few lads that like bigger ladies. Will they admit it to their friends? No, because they'd be slagged for it (within their circles of friends.)

ashers222

I think it's just easier if we agree with the women.

why you insist on being validated by men is still beyond me though. Can you not just be beautiful regardless?

Millicent

ashers222 wrote: »

I think it's just easier if we agree with the women.

why you insist on being validated by men is still beyond me though. Can you not just be beautiful regardless?

Um, I think that's what all the women here are arguing for--that beauty doesn't come in one standard package.

The first two sentences there are a bit bloody patronising, by the way. Some of us are very happy in our own skin without the validation of anyone else, thanks very much.

ashers222

Millicent wrote: »

Um, I think that's what all the women here are arguing for--that beauty doesn't come in one standard package.

The first two sentences there are a bit bloody patronising, by the way. Some of us are very happy in our own skin without the validation of anyone else, thanks very much.

I'm not going to argue with you Millicent because tbf I know I'm just the easy target in this thread and contrary to how you feel about being validated, that's what this entire thread is about.


(someone thanked me for my input in this thread and you opposed it, this thread is definitely about validation edit: and who should be receiving it . as far as I can tell as long as it's not me everything is kosher)

ashers222

and if you can show me anywhere in this thread where I stated that women don't come in all shapes and sizes and that men don't equally appreciate different qualities then I will submit. Show me anywhere where I have said that women cannot be strong and beautiful, in fact show me where I have stated that women can't be strong MASCULINE and beautiful and I will concede.

Millicent

ashers222 wrote: »

I'm not going to argue with you Millicent because tbf I know I'm just the easy target in this thread and contrary to how you feel about being validated, that's what this entire thread is about.


(someone thanked me for my input in this thread and you opposed it, this thread is definitely about validation edit: and who should be receiving it . as far as I can tell as long as it's not me everything is kosher)

I didn't oppose your input. I opposed the poster callously dismissing the contributions of other posters who had taken time to engage him in conversation. That wasn't a point about validation; it was a point on being a bit rude to other people who had taken the time out of their day to post. Nothing in my response to that poster had anything to do with you or the quality of your posts. I'm not sure why you're taking it as a personal slight .

Why do you think you're the easy target? I was actually enjoying your perspective in this thread (aside from the validation lark). May not have agreed with all of it but that's no reason to withdraw from debating the subject, is it?

Millicent

ashers222 wrote: »

and if you can show me anywhere in this thread where I :cool:stated that women don't come in all shapes and sizes and that men don't equally appreciate different qualities then I will submit. Show me anywhere where I have said that women cannot be strong and beautiful, in fact show me where I have stated that women can't be strong MASCULINE and beautiful and I will concede.

You said it here. I'm trying to pick on you so sorry if you feel I am. Maybe I just misread the below post?

That said, the validation thing you keep bringing up is still insulting. This is a thread about how different types of female beauty aren't recognised equally in society, not a plea for men to come along and validate women's attractiveness.

ashers222 wrote: »

I don't disagree with you or the idea that muscle bound women are not attractive to men. I'd have a general idea myself tbh, I was just responding to the previous posters request for a larger male audience. I personally don't try to attract male attention and I do consider my physique masculine and I prefer it that way. (in fact I work hard to ensure it is)
Doesn't mean I'm not attractive or "beautiful" though, just not to men. (which is how I like it)

The premise of this thread sets out to determine if strong women are attractive, but the assumption is that it's men who get to define what is or is not. That's a bit erroneous in my opinion but I understand this is the ladies lounge and the vast majority of women here seek male approval wrt their physical attractiveness.
As it happens I realised most difference between the fit and toned and the muscular girls in the pics is that the toned girls also have incredibly fake boobs.

ashers222

You highlighted the post in question, the act alone was an effort to negate the posters position and as he had thanked my input you deliberately or not gave equal representation which interprets my own as supportive of a one dimensional pov, the one you really disagree with, from a male who does not find masculine women attractive. In reality my posts were independent opinions, some of which concurred and some which didn't.

The fact that I agree that women can be masculine and beautiful doesn't appear to be a popular one. Perhaps it offends physically strong feminine women who have mistaken it as representation of themselves.

ashers222

Millicent wrote: »

You said it here. I'm trying to pick on you so sorry if you feel I am. Maybe I just misread the below post?

That said, the validation thing you keep bringing up is still insulting. This is a thread about how different types of female beauty aren't recognised equally in society, not a plea for men to come along and validate women's attractiveness.

The poster who quoted me in the previous post had suggested I was in disagreement with him wrt how the male demographic in TGC would feel if the topic was put to them, I wasn't. (I entirely believe if it were put to them the response would be yes, they don't find it attractive) If you read my other posts you will see my opinion in context.
This thread opened up with a question of validation. It went from can women be beautiful and strong to can women be muscular and attractive to the opposite sex. These are two different things to me.

Galwayguy35

I see Katie Taylor is mentioned but TBH she wouldn't come into my head as someone who was very muscly compared with for example Fatima Whitbread who has as much muscle mass as a well built man.

Most men don't find that kind of a body attractive in women, as men find boobs and hips a turn on on a woman and these disappear as muscle mass grows.

I would imagine a lot of women like reasonably well built guys as well.

blatantrereg

Because high levels of oestrogen are what cause attractive feminine physical traits, whereas high levels of testosterone make you physically strong and aggressive. So it is logical to find it surprising - on the surface they indicate opposite things.

If you look though, it's not actually strange. Katie Taylor doesn't actually have indicators of high oestrogen, and she does have indicators of high testosterone for a woman. She's pretty because of other things, like regular features, good symmetry, as well as things like being well-presented, and having a happy and genuine demeanour.

Net result is that she's pretty - full stop. On the other hand, if she had high oestrogen levels along with these factors, she'd be exceptionally good looking.