Hip scoring in GSDs

ISDW

Not wishing to take another thread completely off topic, thought I'd start a new one.

I don't know where this information can be found in Ireland, it is quite easily accessible through KC records in the UK, but not sure how open the IKC is with this info. What are the average hip scores for the show style GSDs? Just wondering if the sloping back does impact on the hips with regard to HD.

mymo

I tried finding info on hip scores for my dogs breeds (not gsd's) before buying, the only info I could find was in uk or American, and there were different scores in each for same breeds.
Not even sure if the IKC has its own register of scores, would be interested if anyone could find out.

andreac

It can only be found on kennel club uk site as that's the only place that scores and evaluates the hips. It's not done at all in Ireland, hence no info here.

Bullseye1

The dogs hips can be checked in Waterford and the X-rays are sent to Germany for scoring. But at the end of the day they are meaningless as many GSD with exaggerated sloped back can have good hip scores. Still doesn't make it right.

Ad Wibbs has stated I wouldn't touch a show line with a barge poll no matter how good hip scores are.

mymo

As I understood any vet can take the X-rays and they can be sent to uk for evaluation, that's where my fellas parents scores were done, and that's what his breeder told me.
I never got my fella done as he is neutered so no breeding, but I did see both parents certs, along with eye tests and full 10 generation pedigree.
I just wanted to know these things to make sure I got a better chance of a healthy dog.

ISDW

Its a real shame that IKC don't keep these kind of breed health records. If I wanted to find out the hip and eye scores of a siberian husky bred in the UK, I could look in the breed record supplement, which are published twice a year I think, maybe 4 times? and if they have been done, they are recorded in there. It would be easy for the IKC to do similar, but they don't. It also makes it much easier to track if a breeder is breeding a lot of litters, impossible to do that here.

The UK breed clubs also keep records, but these are dependent on breeders and owners giving them the information. Again though, easy enough to put into place with responsible breeders.

Bullseye1 thats why I'm asking this though, you say GSDs with sloping backs can have good hip scores, how do you know that, and what are they? Are they good, or merely acceptable? A lot of posters on here, me included, believe that the frog legs type look of a lot of the show GSDs are awful, but is there actually any evidence that is unhealthy for the dog? I'm not saying its not, but just looking for evidence.

Wibbs

ISDW wrote: »

Bullseye1 thats why I'm asking this though, you say GSDs with sloping backs can have good hip scores, how do you know that, and what are they? Are they good, or merely acceptable? A lot of posters on here, me included, believe that the frog legs type look of a lot of the show GSDs are awful, but is there actually any evidence that is unhealthy for the dog?

When you screw with the "design" of a biological system to that degree it's going to be unhealthy I. You're putting stresses on areas that were never meant to take such stresses. I dunno, stand up then squat down so your legs are just above the point where you're trying to sit down. Then try walking. You'll feel the strain.

The originator of the GSD breed in Germany wrote a book on his journey(I think I have a link somewhere) to find the "best dog" for working and stamina and agility. He went deep into it and had chapters on movement and anatomy of various dog breeds including wild canids like various wolf subspecies and even foxes. No way was he breeding for the "Porsche back" we see today. He selected for strong dogs with stable temperaments. The Czech lines of SD's are more along the lines of what he was aiming for. His early dogs are built more like European wolves and some could even be confused with same on first glance(especially the first guy below).



Indeed you could argue his dogs hips were often slightly higher than their shoulders.

Now we have these;

WT everlivin F. :eek::mad:

fatmammycat

Oh I looked into this ages ago when I was getting my guy. Both my pup's parents were hip scored. In this day and age I think it would be folly to buy any GSD pup without. The following article was interesting with regards change of breed standard though the ages.


http://www.asuperiorgsd.com/p2p.html

ISDW

I'd like to see what the hip scores of the top show dogs are though, if people recommend that puppy buyers only buy progeny from hip scored parents, is there any proof that it does make a difference in these dogs?

Do all the working breeders hip score?

if all working dogs had low hip scores, and the frog leg show dogs had high scores, then the average will go up or down, depending on which type has the most hip scores carried out, so its really important that straight backed breeders do the scoring, and register them. It is breed dependent, what a 'good' hip score is considered to be.

Wibbs

It's interesting that going by fatmammycat's link even by the 1940's the angulation of the back lower leg was already starting it's downward trend when compared to what the original GSD breed in the previous century looked like. The original lines had near vertical lower rear legs. Unless it was a cross you're not going to see that too often even in the straight backed guys and gals of today.

Googling about as you do I found an explanation/excuse for this sloped back;

For a GSD to be able to trot tirelessly, the withers must be higher than the hind quarters, which is why the breed standard requires pronounced withers & a slope from withers to croup. As the dog trots & the forelegs move forwards the forehand lowers, so a dog that has a level topline will effectively fall on forehand & the hindquarters are then higher than the forequarters & this results in the dog not only using excessive energy in movement, but also means stress is put on the spine.

I emboldened the IMH daft parts. Trot tirelessly? Wut?? A wolf is a trotter(not Del boy) par excellence, they can cover over 100kms in a day in a fast lope, dingos can be pretty close to that, other wild dogs not too far behind. Closer to the breed subject; Saarloos, Czech and Italiano wolfdogs(recognised breeds from GSD stock with relatively recent wolf gene inflow, not "hybrids") will outpace any GSD over short and long distances. Level backs and straight rear legs. Look at the originator of the breeds dogs he selected for. Level. You could put up shelving using them as a guide.

ISDW wrote:

I'd like to see what the hip scores of the top show dogs are though, if people recommend that puppy buyers only buy progeny from hip scored parents, is there any proof that it does make a difference in these dogs?

Good point I. Personally speaking I reckon it's a bloody good guide, especially in the higher scores, but I'd also reckon you can add diet and exercise and even things like early neutering into the mix. Diet? Wild canids eat less as pups and they tend to eat different things*. They mature more slowly physically speaking**. A mix of genetic and environmental pressures. They also exercise less. They stay close to the den and family group, until quite late in the day, yearlings plus. Early neutering especially in males causes the bones to develop in a different way to "natural". Add all that lot together and I'd reckon the genetic screwups, which in some breeds are very strong, are just one part of the HD puzzle, albeit a huge one. On that score I have read that wolves and other wild canids in zoos over generations start to develop these problems even if at a lesser rate than the domestic doggies.

It is breed dependent, what a 'good' hip score is considered to be.

+1000



*While I agree with much of the raw food folks, I've issues with their advice on pups and juvenile dogs. If they're trying to follow the "natural way" then they're on the wrong track. Pups are weaned onto solid food, but not it's not "raw". Their parents and older siblings bring back food to the kids in their bellies, prechewed and already somewhat predigested. Essentially "cooked"(Cooking in humans is roughly akin to this preprocessing, which meant we didn't need the strong stomach acids(and teeth etc) of pure predators). So IMHO feeding raw meat and bones to pups and younger dogs may not be the best bet, though of course usually better than pedigree etc shíte.

**this may be an issue with domestication. Domestic dogs mature faster than wild ones. The Russian study into fox domestication found the same thing. Interestingly domestication causes neotony in an animal. They stay juvenile in many behaviors, but mature into this more quickly.

jen_23

Hi Guys,

Okay so Hipscoring - Hipscoring is only beneficial if breeders only breed from stock with a score well below the Breed mean score (BMS).

I just checked Skotias record for Hipscoring as it gives a list of the BMS for all breeds registered in the programme.

The German Shepherd BMS is 18. The range in 41,787 GSDs having undegone hip scoring ranges from 0 - 106.

So Breeders should be using stock with a hipscore well below 18 - this is the only way in which the incidence of Hip Dysplasia will be reduced.

ISDW

jen_23 wrote: »

Hi Guys,

Okay so Hipscoring - Hipscoring is only beneficial if breeders only breed from stock with a score well below the Breed mean score (BMS).

I just checked Skotias record for Hipscoring as it gives a list of the BMS for all breeds registered in the programme.

The German Shepherd BMS is 18. The range in 41,787 GSDs having undegone hip scoring ranges from 0 - 106.

So Breeders should be using stock with a hipscore well below 18 - this is the only way in which the incidence of Hip Dysplasia will be reduced.

Do you have any idea how the hip score relates to the low backed show GSDs? Do they have low hip scores?

jen_23

The below article might answer your question.

"The next piece of evidence is that German Shepherds are more prone to hip arthritis than other breeds. The PennHIP method of assessing hip dysplasia is based on measuring the looseness or laxity of the hips and the degree of laxity is objectively measured and is called the distraction index. The distraction index reflects the likelihood of the dog developing osteoarthritis of the hips later in life. In the graph below (figure 2) the sigmoid curve of the German shepherds shows a higher tendency to develop osteoarthritis by two years of age than the curves of the other three breeds.

It is postulated that this is due to the altered biomechanics of the hip joints from weight-bearing with more hip flexion.

With this logic a sloping topline causes an increased risk of developing hip osteoarthritis and it is therefore undesirable. Osteoarthritis will not occur however in dogs that are free from hip dysplasia that have tight hips and this means a distraction index of ideally less than 0.3. Unfortunately using low BVA/KC hip scores will not guarantee staying free of osteoarthritis. A paper soon to be published shows that greater than 50% of dogs scored as excellent under the OFA hip scheme in the USA (this is similar to the BVA/KC scheme) went on to develop osteoarthritis. "

Original article is here http://www.videxgsd.com/sloping_topline.htm

ISDW

Thanks Jen, thats brilliant. I do prefer the PennHIP method, rather than the BVA one of purely scoring the xrays, I think it gives a truer reading of any potential issues.

pbthevet

The slope of the dogs back doesnt have much effect on the hip scores from what ive seen in the ones we send off. But the dogs with the exagerrated slopes tend to suffer greater amounts of osteoarthritis and at younger ages. Nothing worse than putting a dog on long term oa meds at two or three years od age imo. Breed really needs to be improved as at the moment some lines out there are verging on cruel.

Hip scoring the way to do this but tending to see dogs with so called "good scores" also getting oa early enough. Anyone else here finding similier situation?

Wibbs

pbthevet wrote: »

Hip scoring the way to do this but tending to see dogs with so called "good scores" also getting oa early enough. Anyone else here finding similier situation?

Just personal experience of my GSD many years ago, he had good scores and came from a line of good scores(and level enough back) yet came down with the beginnings of osteoarthritis at around 5 and by 7 even with therapy had difficulty with standing. Saddens me even today to think about the poor divil.