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The Origin of Specious Nonsense. Twelve years on. Still going. Answer soon.

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    #1082
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,805 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    J C wrote: »
    That's effectively what you guys are suggesting ... that equality demands that the stateshould in justice fund irreligious schools and in injustice should not fund religious schools.
    You're basically claiming that indoctrinating children in religious belief is equivalent to not indoctrinating children in religious belief. Describing a secular education system as "irreligious" is like describing it as "un-Korean". You can't define it by what it doesn't teach.

    Once again: if you want children to be taught that they have to believe in your infinitely-loving all-merciful god or else burn in hell for all eternity, do it on your own dime. I'm not demanding that my taxes be spent on teaching children that your religion is delusional; simply that they not be spent on teaching them that your religion isn't delusional.


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    #1083
    J C
    Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    SW wrote: »
    Please provide evidence of posters demanding that the state should only fund atheist state schools or withdraw the comment.
    You are demanding that the state should not fund religious schools ... and that in state funded schools that no religous expression should be allowed.
    The only people who could express their worldview and have it supported by the state, in such a situation, would be Atheists/anti-religionists (who aren't necessarily not one and the same thing ... but certainly aren't Theists or Christians).


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    #1084
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,805 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    J C wrote: »
    ... and also the separation of irreligion and state.
    So it's the separation of religion and non-religion. Do explain how that would actually work.
    Then it must not suppress religion by not funding religious schools while funding irreligious ones.
    So you oppose secularism?
    Then it must not suport irreligion by funding irreligious schools while not funding religious ones.
    Why? Irreligion is not atheism. If secular schools are to be separated from religion, then they must logically be non-religious. That is not to say they promote atheism as you will no doubt erroneously claim.
    The state should stay out of the argument over apples and pears entirely ... and should fund schools teaching students about the benefits of apples or pears equally.
    So you want a non-secular system of religious and atheist schools? :confused:
    It is my contention that a state that is neutral on the benefits of apples or pears should stay out of the argument ... and should fund both sides using equitable objective criteria.
    No, because then it's no longer separate from the apple vs. pear debate. Even though it's funding both sides it is no longer secular.
    I do.
    You clearly don't as your response is very muddled.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #1085
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,805 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    J C wrote: »
    You are demanding that the state should not fund religious schools ... and that in state funded schools that no religous expression should be allowed.
    Wrong. I have said repeatedly that I'm okay with a religion class in the lesson plan, something you 'forget' when it suits you. I'm not in favour of state funded faith schools. Big difference.
    The only people who could express their worldview and have it supported by the state, in such a situation, would be Atheists/anti-religionists (which are not one and the same thing ... but certainly aren't Theists or Christians).
    Wrong again. Anti-religion promotion in state schools is directly opposed to secularism.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #1086
    J C
    Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    You're basically claiming that indoctrinating children in religious belief is equivalent to not indoctrinating children in religious belief. Describing a secular education system as "irreligious" is like describing it as "un-Korean". You can't define it by what it doesn't teach.
    Indocrination in irreligion / anti-religion to the point of silencing Christian children in such schools is certainly not taking a neutral position on matters of religion/irreligion.

    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Once again: if you want children to be taught that they have to believe in your infinitely-loving all-merciful god or else burn in hell for all eternity, do it on your own dime. I'm not demanding that my taxes be spent on teaching children that your religion is delusional; simply that they not be spent on teaching them that your religion isn't delusional.
    Taxes must not be spent favouring one side over another ... and if your beliefs in the invalidity of religion are to be supported with your tax money in irreligious schools ... then my beliefs in an ever loving and just God should be equally supported by my tax money (and millions like me) in religious schools.


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    #1087
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    JC

    Do you think an Imam should be allowed to go into an RC school for a couple of hours a week and teach about Islam? Should he be allowed to tell the young impressionable about how if they don't pray 5 times a day to Allah they will pay for it in the next life? If you are going to insist on religion being taught in schools then ALL religion should be taught. I would love to see the head pervert in Romes face if that decree was made.


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    #1088
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,805 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    J C wrote: »
    Indocrination in irreligion / anti-religion to the point of silencing Christian children in such schools...
    ...is entirely your invention. I and others will keep repeating this, if for no other reason than to highlight your intellectual dishonesty in ignoring it: secular education does not involve indoctrination in atheism.

    You can acknowledge that point, or you can keep arguing with a straw man. Your call.
    ...if your beliefs in the invalidity of religion are to be supported with your tax money in irreligious schools...
    I never asked for that, but I'm happy to reiterate: I'm equally happy for atheism not to be taught in school as I am for Christianity not to be taught in school. Fair enough?


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    #1089
    J C
    Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    SW wrote: »
    Wrong. I have said repeatedly that I'm okay with a religion class in the lesson plan, something you 'forget' when it suits you. I'm not in favour of state funded faith schools. Big difference.

    Wrong again. Anti-religion promotion in state schools is directly opposed to secularism.
    You are happy with religious education in the lesson plan ... from what perspective?
    Is it to be orthodox Christianity ... or just some kind of scoffing view, typical of the disrespect shown on this thread?

    ... and if a Christian child is to be silenced and ultimately expelled for expressing their faith in your version of a state school, then such a school could only be termed an anti-religious school ... which is indeed not what a liberal secular school should do.


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    #1090
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,805 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    J C wrote: »
    You are happy with religious education in the lesson plan ... from what perspective?
    Is it to be orthodox Christianity ... or just some kind of scoffing view, typical of the disrespect shown on this thread?
    From an objective perspective, in the same manner you'd learn about any other subject. Just the facts and no faith formation. And as said before, boards is no where representative of what happens in the education system.
    ... and if a Christian child is to be silenced and ultimately expelled for expressing their faith in your version of a state school, then such a school could only be termed an anti-religious school ... which is indeed not what a liberal secular school should do.
    What? Why would a child be expelled? What have they done? you need to share the hypothetical with the rest of us so we can at least respond before suffering slings and arrows from yourself. It's just good manners.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #1091
    J C
    Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    bumper234 wrote: »
    JC

    Do you think an Imam should be allowed to go into an RC school for a couple of hours a week and teach about Islam? Should he be allowed to tell the young impressionable about how if they don't pray 5 times a day to Allah they will pay for it in the next life? If you are going to insist on religion being taught in schools then ALL religion should be taught. I would love to see the head pervert in Romes face if that decree was made.
    He certainly should be allowed to minister to pupils who are Muslim within the school.
    ... and he should be welcome to talk to the school community about his faith.
    That's what a liberal and truly pluralist education should be all about.
    My Christianity isn't so vulnerable or weak that I want to silence all opposing/alternative voices.


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    #1092
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    J C wrote: »
    He certainly should be allowed to minister to pupils who are Muslim within the school.
    ... and he should be welcome to talk to the school community about his faith.
    That's what a liberal and truly pluralist education should be all about.
    My Christianity isn't so vulnerable or weak that I want to silence all opposing/alternative voices.

    Why just the Muslim children? If you insist that Christianity should be taught in school (even to non Christian children) then surely Islam should get an equal amount of time to be taught to ALL children.


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    #1093
    J C
    Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    wrote:
    Originally Posted by J C
    He certainly should be allowed to minister to pupils who are Muslim within the school.
    ... and he should be welcome to talk to the school community about his faith.
    That's what a liberal and truly pluralist education should be all about.
    My Christianity isn't so vulnerable or weak that I want to silence all opposing/alternative voices.

    bumper234
    Why just the Muslim children? If you insist that Christianity should be taught in school (even to non Christian children) then surely Islam should get an equal amount of time to be taught to ALL children.
    You have conveniently forgot to read the second part of my answer ...
    Quote:-
    ...and he should be welcome to talk to the school community about his faith.

    ... unlike your sectarian model of school where he would be met at the door and asked to leave forthwith!!!!


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    #1094
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,805 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    J C wrote: »
    You have conveniently forgot to read the second part of my answer ...
    Quote:-
    ...and he should be welcome to talk to the school community about his faith.

    ... unlike your sectarian model of school where he would be met at the door and asked to leave fortwith!!!!

    Considering you're the one advocating a school system divided by religious grouping, it's extremely rich for you to accuse another of sectarian tendencies.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #1095
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    J C wrote: »
    You have conveniently forgot to read the second part of my answer ...
    Quote:-
    ...and he should be welcome to talk to the school community about his faith.

    ... unlike your sectarian model of school where he would be met at the door and asked to leave fortwith!!!!

    I'm not on about him coming in for a chat and a cup of tea I'm talking about Islam religion classes. A child has 2 hours of Christian religious class a week then they should also have 2 hours of Islam classes a week. Would you agree that this should be implemented to give children the best religious education possible? Also please point to the post where I made any such sectarian statements or withdraw that lie please.


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    #1096
    J C
    Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    SW wrote: »
    From an objective perspective, in the same manner you'd learn about any other subject. Just the facts and no faith formation. And as said before, boards is no where representative of what happens in the education system.

    What? Why would a child be expelled? What have they done? you need to share the hypothetical with the rest of us so we can at least respond before suffering slings and arrows from yourself. It's just good manners.
    They would have broken the school rule banning the expression of religious belief in the school ... and thus would be expelled in accordance with this anti-religious rule.


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    #1097
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,805 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    bumper234 wrote: »
    A child has 2 hours of Christian religious class a week then they should also have 2 hours of Islam classes a week.
    What about Buddhism? Judaism? Hinduism? Jainism? Pastafarianism?

    What are you, some sort of bigot?

    :pac:


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    #1098
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,805 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    J C wrote: »
    They would have broken the school rule banning the expression of religious belief in the school ...
    Would that be the rule you invented so you can continue to be outraged by it?

    You know, the straw man I pointed out already?


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    #1099
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,805 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    J C wrote: »
    They would have broken the school rule banning the expression of religious belief in the school ... and thus would be expelled in accordance with this anti-religious rule.

    What sort of schools did you go to? :eek: Teachers in my schools would just have a talk with the kid to explain that sort of behaviour isn't allowed by the rules. That's how teachers should do it, rather than go Old Testament and banish them from the school.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #1100
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    What about Buddhism? Judaism? Hinduism? Jainism? Pastafarianism?

    What are you, some sort of bigot?

    :pac:

    Nope I just want to see if JC agrees that children should get educated about different religions or will he be biased and say only Christianity should be taught in RCC schools.


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    #1101
    J C
    Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    SW wrote: »
    Considering you're the one advocating a school system divided by religious grouping, it's extremely rich for you to accuse another of sectarian tendencies.
    Respecting the right of others to believe as they wish doesn't mean that I cannot arrange for my children to be preferntially taught my religious beliefs.

    The objective is choice ... but I cannot realistically expect that Creationist Schools will be established (within the next year anyway) ... and I therefore choose the school that most meets my preferences. It used to be Liberal Secularist Schools ... but now I will be favouring mainstream Christian ones, having seen where 'secularism' is apparently heading, on this thread and others.

    You can do the same ... nobody is stopping you.


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    #1102
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,805 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    J C wrote: »
    Respecting the right of others to believe as they wish doesn't mean that I cannot arrange for my children to be preferntially taught my religious beliefs.

    The objective is choice ... but I cannot realistically expect that Creationist Schools will be established (within the next year anyway) ... and I therefore choose the school that most meets my preferences. It used to be Liberal Secularist Schools ... but now I will be favouring mainstream Christian ones, having seen where 'secularism' is apparently heading, on this thread and others.

    You can do the same ... nobody is stopping you.

    No thanks. Prefer secularism to religious segregation. You can of course start a faith school with other Christian parents, but the state should be entirely secular when it comes to public schools.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #1103
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,805 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Once again: I'm equally happy for atheism not to be taught in school as I am for Christianity not to be taught in school. Fair enough?


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    #1104
    J C
    Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    SW wrote: »
    What sort of schools did you go to? :eek: Teachers in my schools would just have a talk with the kid to explain that sort of behaviour isn't allowed by the rules. That's how teachers should do it, rather than go Old Testament and banish them from the school.
    ... and what would happen if the 'talk' continued to be ignored by the pupil?
    ... and what would happen if their local pastor decided to call to the school?

    I think we all know that when 'push came to shove' ... that the one being 'shoved' out of the school, would be the Christian child 'hot on the heels' of their pastor ... who would effectively be an 'uninvited guest' at the irreligious school ... and thus totally subject to their rules whilst there.


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    #1105
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,805 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    J C wrote: »
    ... and what would happen if the 'talk' continued to be ignored by the pupil?
    ... and what would happen if their local pastor decided to call to the school?

    I think we all know that when 'push came to shove' ... that the one being 'shoved' out of the school, would be the Christian child 'hot on the heels' of their pastor ... who would effectively be an 'uninvited guest' at the irreligious school ... and thus totally subject to their rules whilst there.

    Elaborate on what the student is doing. The example is too vague to able to give any meaningful answer to it.

    What is the student doing? why is the local pastor getting involved?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #1106
    J C
    Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    SW wrote: »
    No thanks. Prefer secularism to religious segregation. You can of course start a faith school with other Christian parents, but the state should be entirely secular when it comes to public schools.

    The state shouldn't involve itself in religious/irreligious matters ... and if it does, it certainly shouldn't start taking sides on the issue.
    ... this is all part and parcel of the separation of state and religion/irreligion.


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    #1107
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,805 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    J C wrote: »
    The state shouldn't involve itself in religious/irreligious matters ... and if it does, it certainly shouldn't start taking sides on the issue.
    So it should neither pay for the teaching of the idea that Christian doctrine is true, nor the teaching that Christian doctrine is false?


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    #1108
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,805 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    J C wrote: »
    The state shouldn't involve itself in religious/irreligious matters ... and if it does, it certainly shouldn't start taking sides on the issue.
    ... this is all part and parcel of the separation of state and religion/irreligion.

    I know. It's what I support and you oppose. You have stated that the government should fund faith schools after all.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #1109
    J C
    Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    bumper234 wrote: »
    Nope I just want to see if JC agrees that children should get educated about different religions or will he be biased and say only Christianity should be taught in RCC schools.
    I agree that children in Christian schools (indeed all schools) should be taught about different religions and irreligion. This is all part of a broad liberal education, to equip the next generation to live in respect and harmony amongst people of all religions and none within our increasingly pluralist society.
    The type of disrespectful things some of you guys say about Christians in general, and me in particular, indicates that some of you guys missed out on the respecting diversity lessons, if they were ever taught, when ye were at school.;)


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    #1110
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    J C wrote: »
    I agree that children in Christian schools (indeed all schools) should be taught about different religions and irreligion. This is all part of a broad liberal education, to equip the next generation to live in respect and harmony amongst people of all religions and none within our increasingly pluralist society.
    The type of disrespectful things some of you guys say about Christians in general, and me in particular, indicates that some of you guys missed out on the respecting diversity lessons, if they were ever taught, when ye were at school.;)

    So you have no problem with an imam coming in and actively teaching christian children about Islam for exactly the same hours and in the same way they get taught about Christianity?


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    #1111
    J C
    Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    SW wrote: »
    I know. It's what I support and you oppose. You have stated that the government should fund faith schools after all.
    The state may not take sides by funding no schools (which I think nobody wants) ... or by funding all schools (which only the illiberal 'secularists' seem to object to, whilst ironically protesting their pseudo-plurailsm).


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