The Origin of Specious Nonsense. Twelve years on. Still going. Answer soon.

EoghanIRL

oscarBravo wrote: »

I'm still wondering how Jonah survived three days in a fish.

It's quite obvious really .
http://christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t004.html

I'm interested to see how Carbon Dating is flawed and circular .

robindch

oscarBravo wrote: »

I'm still wondering how Jonah survived three days in a fish.

Cod did it.

Pherekydes

oscarBravo wrote: »

I'm still wondering how Jonah survived three days in a fish.

Not a fish, silly!

His whale had two up two down, a fully equipped kitchen, and, novel at the time, an inside loo.

Pherekydes

J C wrote: »

It's like saying: if you're objectively sane ... you most like are.

You think objectively you're sane, but you think the earth is about 10000 years' old.

MrPudding

J C wrote: »

As for the Roman Catholic Church being abusive or corrupt ... all I will say in passing that my experience of Roman Catholics is that they are largely honourable loving and respectful people who have always treated me with respect ... something that you (and many of the other posters on the A & A) should also consider doing.:)

Why should we treat you with respect? There are plenty of people I treat with respect, but for me treating someone with respect is pretty important, and I therefore don't do it lightly. A person needs to show me they are worthy of respect before I will respect them. I need to believe that that person deserves respect. You have not shown me you are worthy of respect, nor do I feel you deserve it. I do not respect you, and I most certainly do not respect your idiotic beliefs. I don't care if you love me, or if you respect me, that will be a one way deal I am afraid.

MrP

robindch

MrPudding wrote: »

Why should we treat you with respect?

Forum charter, line one:

Forum Charter wrote:

No personal insults. Attack the post not the poster. If you can't keep your head, take it elsewhere.

Vivisectus

oscarBravo wrote: »

I'm still wondering how Jonah survived three days in a fish.

Ohh I know this one!

it was a special fish. Prepared by God. The end.

Vivisectus

J C wrote: »

His objective was to show us the magnificence of His Creation ... so He Created the light beams in transit from the stars as well.

So why not just create beams of light? Or even better - place some small, dim stars at or less that 10.000 lightyears away?

And why the hell did he bother with creating streams of neutrinos that arrive at roughly the same time that we can see new supernova appear in the sky?

It seems he is going out of his way to provide us with compelling fake evidence that the universe is far, far older than 10k years. If you are such a fan, the least you could do is oblige the poor guy and do as he clearly intends: for you to think the earth is older!

MrPudding

robindch wrote: »

Forum charter, line one:

I am sorry but that does not mean I have to respect him. There is a difference between feeling respect for someone and disrespecting or insulting someone. It does mean I have to refrain from insulting him, and I do try, but however powerful you think you are, and irrespective of what the charter says, you might be able to punish me for insulting him, but you can't make me respect him.

MrP

J C

robinph wrote: »

To have extremist views means that your views are to the extreme end of what the majority of other people think. It does not (normally) mean that you want to kill people.

Extremism is a loaded word and it certainly does imply nastiness in how people behave.
... but, at the end of the day, I'm not even on the extreme end of what the majority of Christians think ... I believe exactly what the Nicene and Apostles Creeds say about Creation (and these Creeds are the prime articles of faith of all the mainstream Christian Churches)

robinph wrote: »

Your views are extreme as the majority of christians do not think the same way as you or read the bible in the same unusual way as you. That makes your version of beliefs presented on here extreme.

I'm not at all sure that the majority of Christians don't share my views on Creation ... their Creeds are perfectly in line with my views ... and I know Creation Scientists who are members, in good standing, of all of the mainstream Churches.
My views on Creation are certainly different to those of, for example, a Theistic Evolutionist ... but no more extreme.

In any event, if you take the relative number of people who occupy various positions on the Faith in God spectrum ... then using your faulty logic that minority viewpoints are 'extreme' ... this would lead to the conclusion that because only 0.09% of the Irish population identified themselves as Atheists on the most recent census ... that all atheists including your good self are 'extreme' in their views.:)

So ironically, I'm as mainstream and orthodox a Christian as you can find ... and you're a self-defined 'extremist' because less than 4,000 people out of a population of over four and a half million think the same way you do!!!

Absolam

MrPudding wrote: »

I am sorry but that does not mean I have to respect him. There is a difference between feeling respect for someone and disrespecting or insulting someone.

You don't have to respect him in order to treat him with respect, by, for instance, refraining from attacking him rather than his posts, or by not insulting him. JC hasn't asked that he be respected, only that he be treated with respect, which is hardly an onerous request.

TheChizler

J C wrote: »

So ironically, I'm as mainstream and orthodox a Christian as you can find ... and you're a self-defined 'extremist' because less than 4,000 people out of a population of over four and a half million think the way you do!!!

Or at least returned the census with the word atheist written in the religion section.

J C

oscarBravo wrote: »

I'm still wondering how Jonah survived three days in a fish.

... and so am I.

J C

TheChizler wrote: »

Or at least returned the census with the word atheist written in the religion section.

I take your point that the Census figure has its deficiencies ... but the general point remains that Atheists are a tiny minority in Ireland (even if they are double or treble the 0.09% figure recorded in the census) ... and defining Creationists as 'extreme' on the basis of their supposed small population size (which I don't think is true BTW), logically also defines all Atheists in Ireland as 'extreme' as well, because of their low population size ... so how does it feel to be labelled as 'extreme' then?

... and BTW I'm not labelling you so ... it's robinph's logic that is defining you as 'extreme' in your views simply because 'the majority (over 99%) do not think the same way as you'.

wrote:

Originally Posted by robinph
Your views are extreme as the majority of christians do not think the same way as you ...

Atheists in glasshouses shouldn't throw stones ... by calling other supposed minorities 'extremists' on the basis of their supposed relative population size !!!:eek:

Pherekydes

J C wrote: »

... but the general point remains that Atheists are a tiny minority in Ireland (even if they are double or treble the 0.09% figure recorded in the census)

I'm an atheist and I didn't write 'atheist' in the box on the census. I ticked 'No Religion'. Many others did, too. The real figure for atheists is probably closer to 7.5%. That particular question on the census is badly worded.

That said, Creationists aren't considered extreme because there are so few of them; they are considered extreme because of their views.

I thought that much would be obvious to a scientist.

Vivisectus

While "extremist" can be considered a loaded term, I think it is fair to call your point of view extreme. Most religious people consider at least some of the stories of their religion allegorical in nature, while on the literally true vs allegorically true sliding scale you, thus far, have taken an extreme literalist position: even stories that require radically supernatural circumstances you consider literally true.

As such, mainstream you most certainly are not: very few people believe in vegetarian tyrannosaurs because of religious reasons. And if such beliefs are part of the orthodoxy of your particular religious organisation, then they would most certainly be considered as part of the radical fringe of Christianity.

You could consider some flavors of atheism as an extreme position as well: most people believe in at least some supernatural occurrences.

However, you could also consider it perfectly mainstream: most people think that the majority of gods do not exist. You yourself agree with me that Zeus, Apollo, Thor, Odin, Brahma, Vishnu, Amun-Ra, Isis, Ahura Mazda, Tiamat, Mithra, Ba'al, and a great many other deities do not exist as described in their religious texts. The only difference between you and me is that I believe in 1 fewer Gods and 1 or 2 fewer demi-gods, depending on your point of view on the existence of a devil.

EoghanIRL

J C wrote: »

I take your point that the Census figure has its deficiencies ... but the general point remains that Atheists are a tiny minority in Ireland (even if they are double or treble the 0.09% figure recorded in the census) ... and defining Creationists as 'extreme' on the basis of their supposed small population size (which I don't think is true BTW), logically also defines all Atheists in Ireland as 'extreme' as well, because of their low population size ... so how does it feel to be labelled as 'extreme' then?

... and BTW I'm not labelling you so ... it's robinph's logic that is defining you as 'extreme' in your views simply because 'the majority (over 99%) do not think the same way as you'.


Atheists in glasshouses shouldn't throw stones ... by calling other supposed minorities 'extremists' on the basis of their supposed relative population size !!!:eek:

Many people don't put down that they are atheist because of fear.
That's what your religion does to people .

Also you are seriously deluded if you think being an atheist is extreme .

PopePalpatine

I'd call Wahhabists from Saudi Arabia extreme regardless of what percentage of the Saudi population they constitute. I'd call the Taliban extreme regardless of what support they have. I'd call Ian Paisley extreme regardless of what support he had.

kiffer

EoghanIRL wrote: »

Many people don't put down that they are atheist because of fear.
That's what your religion does to people .

Also you are seriously deluded if you think being an atheist is extreme .

I think that's a bit of an extreme statement.
Most if the people I have spoken to about the census say they put down 'no religion' because atheism isn't a religion.
That said we've seen polls of the population that came back showing a fair few* people who self-report or are recorded as Catholic don't believe in God.

People seem to put down Catholic for social, political or keeping mammy happy reasons.

*for example a Catholic Bishops Conference report:"Practice and Belief among Catholics in the Republic of Ireland" from 2011 reports that 7-8% of catholics don't actually believe in God. Another 13.5% are on the fence, sometimes they believe and sometimes they don't.

EoghanIRL

kiffer wrote: »

I think that's a bit of an extreme statement.
Most if the people I have spoken to about the census say they put down 'no religion' because atheism isn't a religion.
That said we've seen polls of the population that came back showing a fair few* people who self-report or are recorded as Catholic don't believe in God.


People seem to put down Catholic for social, political or keeping mammy happy reasons.

*for example a Catholic Bishops Conference report:"Practice and Belief among Catholics in the Republic of Ireland" from 2011 reports that 7-8% of catholics don't actually believe in God. Another 13.5% are on the fence, sometimes they believe and sometimes they don't.

Fear doesn't necessarily mean fearing for your life or anything that extreme .
Like what you said in bold . Fear of upsetting family members, social groups etc .
Otherwise why would they put down that they are catholic even though they don't believe in God .

Jc can't say that atheism is extremist just because it represents a small percentage of the population . I mean what's extreme about not believing in God ?

Creationism is extreme as they take the bible literally , more so than other Christians .
Believing that the earth is circa 10 thousand years old and believing in implausible stories such as the flood and taking them literally is extremist in comparison with other Christians .
If you asked the average catholic how old the earth is , do you think they would say 10 thousand years old?

oscarBravo

J C wrote: »

... and so am I.

But you're absolutely certain that he did?

J C

Pherekydes wrote: »

I'm an atheist and I didn't write 'atheist' in the box on the census. I ticked 'No Religion'. Many others did, too. The real figure for atheists is probably closer to 7.5%. That particular question on the census is badly worded.

If you take the no religion, atheist and agnostic totals it comes to about 6%. With over 90% declaring themselves to be Christian and nearly all of their denominations assenting to the Apostles or Nicene Creeds as articles of faith the number of Creationists out there are an order of magnitude in excess of the number 'Atheists'. That still doesn't make an Atheist's views extreme IMO ... just different ... from people of faith (many of whom hold views that are also different from each other).

Pherekydes wrote: »

That said, Creationists aren't considered extreme because there are so few of them; they are considered extreme because of their views.

... and how is that determined?
... is there some kind of 'viewometer' that we can, for example, run Atheist views on God through ... that will come up with an answer on their level of 'extremism'?

J C

EoghanIRL wrote: »

Many people don't put down that they are atheist because of fear.
That's what your religion does to people .

That's what people do to themselves. Nobody is forcing anybody to fill in the census incorrectly ... indeed they have a legal obligation to fill it in correctly.

EoghanIRL wrote: »

Also you are seriously deluded if you think being an atheist is extreme .

I wouldn't use the word 'extreme' to describe any faith position that wasn't advocating or using violence to promote itself. Creationists certainly don't fall into this category ... and neither does any of the Atheists, that I know, including yourself.

oscarBravo

J C wrote: »

With over 90% declaring themselves to be Christian and nearly all of their denominations assenting to the Apostles or Nicene Creeds as articles of faith...

Would you accept that the vast majority of self-identifying Christians in this country don't believe that the bible is the literal truth?

Doctor Jimbob

J C wrote: »

If you take the no religion, atheist and agnostic totals it comes to about 6%. With over 90% declaring themselves to be Christian and nearly all of their denominations assenting to the Apostles or Nicene Creeds as articles of faith the number of Creationists out there are an order of magnitude in excess of the number 'Atheists'. That still doesn't make an Atheist's views extreme ... just different ... from people of faith (many of whom hold views that are also different from each other).

Nice try, but no. 90% of people declaring themselves as christian is not equal to 90% of people, or anything remotely close to it, being a creationist. You're trying to make the terms equivalent but they aren't. For starters, a large proportion of that 90% would be catholic. The catholic church accepts the theory of evolution.

... and how is that determined?
... is there some kind of 'viewometer' that we can, for example, run Atheist views on God through ... that will come up with an answer on their level of 'extremism'?

You can try to deflect all you want, creationism is a minority viewpoint, and by definition that makes it extreme. First definition of extreme I could find is: of a character or kind farthest removed from the ordinary or average.

J C wrote: »

That's what people do to themselves. Nobody is forcing anybody to fill in the census incorrectly ... indeed they have a legal obligation to fill it in correctly.

Odd you point that out, as if people actually did so it would work against your argument.

I wouldn't use the word 'extreme' to describe any faith position that wasn't advocating or using violence to promote itself. Creationists certainly don't fall into this category ... and neither does any of the Atheists, that I know, including yourself.

See the definition of extreme above. It doesn't mean 'bad' or 'crazy' (although the latter would certainly be appropriate when describing creationism). Creationism is a view shared by a relatively small group of people. This view is completely at odds with the commonly accepted one. Therefore, it is extreme. You can keep trying to imply we're insulting you by calling it an extremist viewpoint all you like, but it does your argument no favours.

J C

EoghanIRL wrote: »

Fear doesn't necessarily mean fearing for your life or anything that extreme .
Like what you said in bold . Fear of upsetting family members, social groups etc .
Otherwise why would they put down that they are catholic even though they don't believe in God.

I agree with you that peer pressure can affect how people describe themselves ... but this cuts both ways ... and I'm sure that some Roman Catholics, who still believe in God, may have put down 'no religion' as a protest against the abuses that have come to light within their Church in recent times - so the people within the 'no religion' cohort are certainly not all Atheists without the conviction to explicitly state that they are Atheists.

EoghanIRL wrote: »

Jc can't say that atheism is extremist just because it represents a small percentage of the population . I mean what's extreme about not believing in God ?

Its not any more 'extreme' than believing in God ... its just at the opposite end of the faith spectrum to Theists.

EoghanIRL wrote: »

Creationism is extreme as they take the bible literally , more so than other Christians .
Believing that the earth is circa 10 thousand years old and believing in implausible stories such as the flood and taking them literally is extremist in comparison with other Christians .
If you asked the average catholic how old the earth is , do you think they would say 10 thousand years old?

If you asked the average Roman Catholic if they thought that God exists, do you think they would say He didn't?
Does this answer mean that all Atheists are 'extreme' in their views because the 'average catholic' doesn't share their views on God's existence?
... because that is what you are explicitly stating about Creationists ... using of what the 'average catholic' believes as the 'yardstick' for measuring levels of 'extremism'.

... so Eoghan, we're either both 'extremists' for not believing everything that the 'average catholic' believes ... or we simply have a difference of opinion on matters of faith. I'm going with the latter view ... and if you believe that you are an 'extremist' ... because the 'average catholic' doesn't share your outlook on matters of faith then I'll accept your word on it.:)

J C

oscarBravo wrote: »

Would you accept that the vast majority of self-identifying Christians in this country don't believe that the bible is the literal truth?

I don't believe all of the Bible to be literally true ... there are parables, poetry, and metaphors clearly within the Bible ... and none of them can or should be taken literally.
I do believe the Bible is the Word of God and I do believe He Created Heaven and Earth and all things visible and invisible ... which is a faith position that I share with all non-heretical Christians in all mainstream Churches.

oscarBravo

J C wrote: »

I don't believe all of the Bible to be literally true ... there are parables, poetry, and metaphors clearly within the Bible ... and none of them can or should be taken literally.
I do believe the Bible is the Word of God and I do believe He Created Heaven and Earth and all things visible and invisible ... which is a faith position that I share with all non-heretical Christians in all mainstream Churches.

Would you accept that the vast majority of self-identifying Christians in this country don't believe that the creation story in Genesis is the literal truth, but instead believe that the Universe is several billion years old?

J C

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

Nice try, but no. 90% of people declaring themselves as christian is not equal to 90% of people, or anything remotely close to it, being a creationist. You're trying to make the terms equivalent but they aren't. For starters, a large proportion of that 90% would be catholic. The catholic church accepts the theory of evolution.

I also 'accept' the 'theory of evolution' in so far as it explains the minor changes in phenotype observed to be brought about by natural selection on pre-existing genetic diversity.

... and here is the Magisterial (i.e. definitive) teaching of the Roman Catholic Church on the matter (emphasis mine):-

Quote:-
Magisterial Teaching on Creation

Both the Council of Trent and Vatican Council I taught that no one is permitted to interpret Sacred Scripture “contrary to the unanimous agreement of the Fathers.” In the words of Fr. Victor Warkulwiz:

The Fathers and Doctors of the Church unanimously agreed that Genesis 1-11 is an inerrant literal historical account of the beginning of the world and the human species as related by the prophet Moses under divine inspiration. This does not mean that they agreed on every point in its interpretation, but their differences were accidental and not essential. Pope Leo XIII, following St. Augustine, affirmed the Catholic rule for interpreting Sacred Scripture, “not to depart from the literal and obvious sense, except only where reason makes it untenable or necessity requires.”

For the first five centuries of the Church, all of the Fathers believed and proclaimed:

that God created the different kinds of living things instantly and immediately

That Adam was created from the dust of the earth and Eve from his side

that God ceased to create new kinds of creatures after the creation of Adam

that the Original Sin of Adam shattered the perfect harmony of the first-created world and brought human death, deformity, and disease into the world.

This patristic teaching on creation was implicit in the words of the Nicene Creed, “I believe in God, the Father almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible.” Not until the Middle Ages when the Albigensian heresy denied the divine creation of the material universe did an Ecumenical Council elaborate on the first article of the creed in the following words:

God…creator of all visible and invisible things of the spiritual and of the corporal who by his own omnipotent power at once from the beginning of time created each creature from nothing, spiritual and corporal namely angelic and mundane and finally the human, constituted as it were, alike of the spirit and the body.

I find nothing that I'm not in agreement with above ... except that I believe that Creation took six days ... and wasn't instantaneous.

J C

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

You can try to deflect all you want, creationism is a minority viewpoint, and by definition that makes it extreme. First definition of extreme I could find is: of a character or kind farthest removed from the ordinary or average.

... so using your definition all atheists are 'extremists' because they happen to be a 'minority viewpoint' in Ireland. Is that what you believe?

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

Odd you point that out, as if people actually did so it would work against your argument.

How does it work against my argument, if as you say, some Atheists didn't comply with their legal obligations to fill in the Census correctly?

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

See the definition of extreme above. It doesn't mean 'bad' or 'crazy' (although the latter would certainly be appropriate when describing creationism). Creationism is a view shared by a relatively small group of people. This view is completely at odds with the commonly accepted one. Therefore, it is extreme. You can keep trying to imply we're insulting you by calling it an extremist viewpoint all you like, but it does your argument no favours.

... so having a minority opinion is now both 'extreme' and 'crazy' ... so are the 0.09% minority of self-identifying Atheists in Ireland also 'extreme' and 'crazy,' in your opinion?
... or are such unfounded terms of abuse reserved only for Theists with whom you have a difference of opinion?