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The Origin of Specious Nonsense. Twelve years on. Still going. Answer soon.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    smacl wrote: »
    You've a false dichotomy there. If life wasn't created by a spontaneous natural process that doesn't imply it was made by God. You could replace God with any other random creation myth or fantasy that tickled your fancy and it would be equally valid. By plumping for God in this case you're displaying extremes of confirmation bias that are the antithesis of proper scientific method. You have a preferred outcome and you're doing everything in your power to make your observations fit that outcome. That is not science, it is adherence to dogmatic belief.
    You could say the very same thing about the confirmation biases amongst atheists for naturalistic explantions for the origins and emergence of life ... the only difference between me and them is that my ideas are both plausible and supported by what we observe around us ... for example, the vast quantities of high quality complex functional specified information observed in life ... which is indicative of an intelligent origin ... rather than a spontaneous origin.

    On the other hand, evolutionist explantions are both logically challenged (the idea that selecting mistakes can do anything other than lead to disaster in a complex functional specified system like living processes) ... and it is evidentially challenged (in that the spontaneous production of complex functional specified information has never been demonstrated ... whilst its production by applied intelligence is repeatably observable).


  • Registered Users Posts: 148 ✭✭Mick_1970


    I have lurked on this thread for more years than I care to remember. There is something I've always wondered JC. Do you accept that we (humans) are primarily a carbon based life form?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,247 ✭✭✭pauldla


    J C wrote: »
    Pauldla that unfounded ad hominem is beneath the standard expected in polite debate ... and weakens anything else you might say in support of your argument.:(

    Not an ad hominem, JC, a request for clarification on a term. But if you see a shoe there that fits you, then by all means lace that puppy up.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,754 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    J C wrote: »
    You could say the very same thing about the confirmation biases amongst atheists for naturalistic explantions for the origins and emergence of life ...

    You seem to have entirely missed my point. Suggesting that your creationist myth is credible because you consider current scientific thinking flawed is nonsense on the basis that your making an either or case where we actually have an infinite number of options to choose from. Every other contradictory creation myth or imagined creation fantasy can make equal claims to being as true as yours, and has exactly the same amount of supporting objective observable evidence. For example, Elon Musk reckons we're living in the Matrix, Scientologists believe the Thetans are going to take them to Venus, and the Jatravartid people of Viltvodle VI believe that the entire Universe was in fact sneezed out of the nose of a being known as the Great Green Arkleseizure. All as plausible as 'God did it'.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Mick_1970 wrote: »
    I have lurked on this thread for more years than I care to remember. There is something I've always wondered JC. Do you accept that we (humans) are primarily a carbon based life form?
    We are physically a carbon-based lifeform ... but we are also spiritual beings.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    pauldla wrote: »
    Not an ad hominem, JC, a request for clarification on a term. But if you see a shoe there that fits you, then by all means lace that puppy up.
    It was quite clear what you were saying (an ad hominem against me) ... and it was quite clear what the original questioner was asking (an apparently genuine question).


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    smacl wrote: »
    You seem to have entirely missed my point. Suggesting that your creationist myth is credible because you consider current scientific thinking flawed is nonsense on the basis that your making an either or case where we actually have an infinite number of options to choose from.
    It isn't just that Evolution doesn't explain either the origins of life (which it doesn't claim to do anyway) ... it also doesn't explain how the vast quantities of complex functional specified information found in every genome arose either.
    And the Creation Hypothesis is directly provable precisely by the vast quantities of complex functional specified information found in every genome .., which is a definitive signal of intelligent action.

    smacl wrote: »
    Every other contradictory creation myth or imagined creation fantasy can make equal claims to being as true as yours, and has exactly the same amount of supporting objective observable evidence. For example, Elon Musk reckons we're living in the Matrix, Scientologists believe the Thetans are going to take them to Venus, and the Jatravartid people of Viltvodle VI believe that the entire Universe was in fact sneezed out of the nose of a being known as the Great Green Arkleseizure. All as plausible as 'God did it'.
    None of these (correctly) claim to have scientific evidence for their beliefs.


  • Moderators Posts: 51,805 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    J C wrote: »
    It isn't just that Evolution doesn't explain either the origins of life (which it doesn't claim to do anyway) ... it also doesn't explain how the vast quantities of complex functional specified information found in every genome arose either.
    And the Creation Hypothesis is directly provable precisely by the vast quantities of complex functional specified information found in every genome .., which is a definitive signal of intelligent action.

    Of course it doesn't, CFSI is creationist parlance not actual scientific terminology. ;)

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,754 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    J C wrote: »
    None of these (correctly) claim to have scientific evidence for their beliefs.

    Nor (correctly) do creationists.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,236 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    J C wrote: »
    And the Creation Hypothesis is directly provable precisely by the vast quantities of complex functional specified information found in every genome .., which is a definitive signal of intelligent action.
    But CFSI is entirely fictional and only used by creationists...

    Have you ever attempted to explain why your brand of creationism is right, but other brands such as Raelian creationism is wrong?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 22,311 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    pauldla wrote: »
    Not an ad hominem, JC, a request for clarification on a term. But if you see a shoe there that fits you, then by all means lace that puppy up.
    Hush puppy?


  • Registered Users Posts: 148 ✭✭Mick_1970


    J C wrote: »
    We are physically a carbon-based lifeform ... but we are also spiritual beings.

    Thanks, I know we need oxygen and various other elements for life, but I am curious where you think this carbon came from?


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,580 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Mick_1970 wrote: »
    Thanks, I know we need oxygen and various other elements for life, but I am curious where you think this carbon came from?

    Clay apparently,


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,620 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    J C wrote: »
    It isn't just that Evolution doesn't explain either the origins of life (which it doesn't claim to do anyway) ... it also doesn't explain how the vast quantities of complex functional specified information found in every genome arose either.
    And the Creation Hypothesis is directly provable precisely by the vast quantities of complex functional specified information found in every genome .., which is a definitive signal of intelligent action.

    So we're back to "magic man in the clouds did it".


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,417 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    King Mob wrote: »
    Have you ever attempted to explain why your brand of creationism is right, but other brands such as Raelian creationism is wrong?
    JC's creationism is written down in the bible.

    Simples!


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,754 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    robindch wrote: »
    JC's creationism is written down in the bible.

    Simples!

    tumblr_kz33luuNiq1qzewk6o1_500-2.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭oldrnwisr


    J C wrote: »
    My basic point was that modern Creation Scientists can trace their scientific pedigree right back to the 'fathers' of modern science ... and that point remains.

    Well, no. Your point doesn't remain because as I pointed out, unlike the pioneers listed modern "creation scientists" are not out to investigate the world and report their findings. They're attempting to drum up pseudoscientific evidence for their religious beliefs and cobble together an explanation of origins which looks just science-y enough at first glance to fool non-scientists into believing that intelligent design is a legit theory. That way they can get their foot in the door of science classes and pretend to be on an equal footing with evolution.

    Let's take your favourite creationist man-crush William Dembski, for example. Dembski's work on complexity shows why he isn't of the same pedigree as the real scientists listed previously.


    1. Kolmogorov complexity & misrepresentation.

    One of Dembski's common tactics is to cherrypick concepts and ideas from legitimate scientists and pretend that they support his argument. One such example is the idea of specified complexity espoused by Leslie Orgel and Paul Davies. Dembski introduces the idea of specified complexity in Chapter 1 of No Free Lunch. In a footnote to the chapter he quotes Orgel:

    “In brief, living organisms are distinguished by their specified complexity. Crystals are usually taken as the prototypes of simple well-specified structures, because they consist of a very large number of identical molecules packed together in a uniform way. Lumps of granite or random mixtures of polymers are examples of structures that are complex but not specified. The crystals fail to qualify as living because they lack complexity; the mixtures of polymers fail to qualify because they lack specificity.”

    and Davies:

    “Living organisms are mysterious not for their complexity per se, but for their tightly specified complexity.”

    Dembski introduces the comments so he can pretend that when he talks about specified complexity it means the same thing as when legitimate scientists do. Unfortunately, Dembski can't even be consistent in this regard. On page 144 of No Free Lunch Dembski explains that his use of specified complexity refers to low Kolmogorov complexity. However, on page 116 of The Fifth Miracle, Davies explains that he uses specified complexity to mean high Kolmogorov complexity.

    For those who don't know Kolmogorov complexity refers to the degree to which a string of information can be communicated in an abbreviated way.

    For example, take the following two strings of text:

    abababababababababababababababab

    4clj5b2p0cv4w1x8rx2y39umgw5q85s7

    The first string has low Kolmogorov complexity. This is because the information content of the string can be transmitted using less characters than the string length, e.g. "ab 16 times". Dembski uses low Kolmogorov complexity to mean specified complexity because the regular repeating pattern looks intentional (at least to him).
    The second string has high Kolmogorov complexity, meaning that it is so complex that you would have to transmit the entire string as is to get the message across. This is what Davies refers to as specified complexity, something which is very difficult to unpick into smaller parts.

    Dembski's misrepresentation of Orgel, Davies and Kolmogorov complexity underlines his dishonesty and lack of scientific expertise and integrity.


    2. Claude Shannon & Genetic Information


    The next point about Dembski is his willingness to quote other scientists' work even when his conclusions about said work are demonstrably false. In Chapter 6 of Intelligent Design: The bridge between science and theology, Dembski introduces the idea of intelligent design as a kind of information theory, informed by the work of Claude Shannon. Shannon's key contribution to science was the development of Shannon uncertainty or the information theory equivalent of entropy. His work lead Dembski to formulate his "Law" of conservation of information which states:

    “Natural causes are therefore incapable of generating CSI. This broad conclusion I call the Law of Conservation of Information, or LCI for short. LCI has profound implications for science. Among its corollaries are the following: (1) The CSI in a closed system of natural causes remains constant or decreases. (2) CSI cannot be generated spontaneously, originate endogenously, or organize itself (as these terms are used in origins-of-life research). (3) The CSI in a closed system of natural causes either has been in the system eternally or was at some point added exogenously (implying that the system though now closed was not always closed). (4) In particular, any closed system of natural causes that is also of finite duration received whatever CSI it contains before it became a closed system.”

    However, Shannon's work shows that genetic information can be increased, using mutation.

    Shannon defined information initially as a probability. For example, a message Xi has the probability p(Xi). So if you asked someone their birthday, assigning the value of Xi to 1st January would yield p(Xi) of 0.003.

    Shannon then formalised this postulate by defining the information content of a stream as its entropy given by:

    efdf8c905c0f9dfd78002df6f20edb5d.png

    so for p(x) = 0 and p(x) = 1, the function has a value of 0.


    Now, as far as genetics is concerned, the following example shows clearly why Dembski is wrong.

    Let's start with a population of 1000 individuals. 500 of these individuals (which we'll call group A) have a gene with the codon CAG and 500 (which we'll call group B) with the codon CCC. So p(A) = 0.5 and p(B) = 0.5. Therefore, H = -(0.5*log2(0.5) - 0.5*log2(0.5)) = 1.000.

    Now in the next generation, group A remains unchanged. However, in group B, thanks to a random mutation, there are 499 individuals with codon CCC and 1 mutant with CCG. Therefore, the sum of entropies is now:

    p(CAG) * log2(p(CAG)) = 0.50000
    p(CCC) * log2(p(CCC)) = 0.50044
    p(CCG) * log2(p(CCG)) = 0.00997

    So now, H = -(0.50000 + 0.50044 + 0.00997) = 1.01041

    Therefore the information has increased thanks to this mutation.


    3. Ronald Fisher & Scientific Integrity

    One final point to show why Dembski and other "creation scientists" cannot trace their pedigree back to scientists like Maxwell, Newton and Mendel.

    "When Ronald Fisher charged Gregor Mendel's gardening assistant with data falsification because Mendel's data matched Mendel's theory too closely, Fisher was eliminating chance through small probabilities (see Fisher, 1965, p.53)"

    Dembski further uses Fisher's work as the basis for the creation of his trichotomy of design, regularity and chance and the explanatory filter based on it. Having detailed his filter, on page 49, Dembski states:

    "Trichotomy holds because regularity, chance and design are mutually exclusive and exhaustive."

    However, this simply isn't true. In Fisher's book, to which Dembski refers, Fisher says that mutations represent an option common to all three sets. Mutations occur individually at random, but collectively are governed by deterministic processes which, according to Fisher are all part of the design in God's divine plan.

    The other problem is that Dembski has constructed his trichotomy to be mutually exclusive and exhaustive by definition and not by investigation. He states on page 36:

    "Defining design as the set-theoretic complement of the disjunction of regularity-or-chance guarantees that the three modes of explanation are mutually exclusive or exhaustive."

    Dembski tries to define design into existence rather than investigate if design is really responsible. It is a top-down, rather than a bottom-up approach to evidence which is as unscientific, and dishonest, as it gets. This more than all his other work shows that Dembski is trying to find evidence to fit his predetermined conclusions rather than following the evidence where it leads. The idea that Dembski or Behe or Gish, Morris and the rest of the modern creationism industry take their lead from real scientists of the past is laughable.

    J C wrote: »
    Its weakness is that it doesn't explain how the rich information was created in the first place ... something that is a very great weakness, when somebody wishes to claim that evolution created the information by the totally implausible mechanism of selecting genetic information mistakes.:)

    It seems the old adage holds true once again: "A coward believes all other men are cowards and a thief believes all others are thieves."

    This is quite a common tactic from Christians. They think that because their origin story covers the origin of life as well as its development that any competing theory must necessarily do the same. Unfortunately, reality owes you no such favour. In 12 years you have never managed to explain why a theory of evolution must include a theory on the origins of life. It doesn't, the theory of evolution is perfectly valid without dealing with abiogenesis, just as the Big Bang theory is perfectly valid without dealing with cosmogony. This argument is the same one that you get from Christians claiming that atheism is the positive belief that there is no God. As an agnostic atheist who usually describes my position as a lack of belief I hear this argument a lot from Christians because when their position is based on faith they assume that everyone else's must be too. The world doesn't work like that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    oldrnwisr wrote: »
    Well, no. Your point doesn't remain because as I pointed out, unlike the pioneers listed modern "creation scientists" are not out to investigate the world and report their findings.
    Creation Scientists investigate the world and report their findings, like all other scientists.
    Many Evolutionists, on the other hand, are a horse of a different colour:-

    Quote:-
    "When one reads evolutionary literature, one discovers evolutionary faith is replete with an acceptance of logical fallacies. The examples below are illustrative.

    The fallacy of provincialism when one sees things solely from the perspective of one’s own particular group (in this case the evolutionary establishment). Other viewpoints, especially those with religious implications, are simply not accepted or tolerated. Thus, dogmatism is a strong component of modern evolutionary belief.

    Proponents also engage in special pleading—they selectively accept data supporting their position while rejecting data that does not support it. In fact, they support their position with a confidence entirely out of proportion to the evidence.

    Hasty Generalization—basing a general statement on too small a sample; building general rules from accidental or exceptional situations. (Microevolution is evidence of macroevolution; origin of life experiments in the laboratory can be extrapolated to the actual evolution of life in the primitive oceans, alleged transitionary forms [Archaeopteryx, Semouria, etc.] prove evolution.)

    Begging the Question (petitio principii)—reasoning in a circle, using your conclusion as a premise, assuming the very thing to be proved as proof of itself. (Natural selection; paleoanthropology; geologic record.)

    Misuse of Authority—attempting to prove a conclusion by appealing to a real or alleged authority in such a way that the conclusion does not necessarily follow. (e.g. All competent scientists declare evolution is a fact!)

    Misuse of Analogy—trying to prove something by improper use of a parallel case. (Hominid fossils prove evolution.)

    Chronological Snobbery (argumentum ad futuris)—attempting to refute an idea merely by dating it, usually dating it very old. (e.g. Creationism was refuted long ago.)

    Argument to Future—trying to prove something by appealing to evidence that might be turned up in the (unknown) future. (As science progresses, proof of evolution will eventu­ally be forthcoming.)

    Poisoning the Wells—attempting to refute an argument by discrediting in advance the source of the evidence for the argument. (e.g. Creationists are “know-nothings” opposed to modern science; they get their arguments mostly from the book of Genesis.)

    Appeal to Force (argumentum ad baculum)—substituting force or the threat of force for reason and evidence. (e.g. sacking people who question evolution or even hint at the validity of Creation)

    Appeal to the People (argumentum ad populum)—trying to establish a position by appealing to popular sentiments instead of relevant evidence. (e.g. Everybody believes in evolution, therefore it must be true.)

    The Fallacy of Extension—attacking an exaggerated or caricatured version of your opponent’s position, i.e., to attack a “straw man.” (e.g. Creationism is only the religious doc­trine of a small but vocal minority.)

    Hypothesis Contrary to Fact—arguing from “what might have been,” from a past hypotheti­cal condition. (e.g. The fossil record.)

    The Ultimate Fallacy: Pigheadedness—refusing to accept a proposition even when it has been established by adequate evidence. (That evolution is false is established by the law of biogenesis, probability considerations, thermodynamics, etc.)"


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,580 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    J C wrote: »
    Creation Scientists investigate the world and report their findings, like all other scientists.
    Many Evolutionists, on the other hand, are a horse of a different colour:-

    Quote:-
    "When one reads evolutionary literature, one discovers evolutionary faith is replete with an acceptance of logical fallacies. The examples below are illustrative.
    ... thermodynamics, etc.)"

    You have literally described your whole 12 year career in this thread JC! Every one of those points above can be used to describe your argument for creationism.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,236 ✭✭✭jigglypuffstuff


    So we're back to "magic man in the clouds did it".

    No...there was no mention of magic man or clouds.. Did you miss that?

    What we are back to apparently is, can't explain something, so best to try and belittle and downplay something as it doesn't reflect my own skewed perception

    Out of curiosity... What's your input into how the universe as we know it came to be? Let's talk pre big bang now..I'd be very interested to hear that


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  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    pone2012 wrote: »
    Out of curiosity... What's your input into how the universe as we know it came to be? Let's talk pre big bang now..I'd be very interested to hear that

    You want to know what happened before time existed?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,236 ✭✭✭jigglypuffstuff


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    You want to know what happened before time existed?

    I want to know his opinion of what happened, what caused the big bang and how the universe came to be... And you are welcome to add yours if you wish

    Everyone here seems to be attempting to make jokes / snide comments at JCs expense...so I'm interested to see what other people's beliefs are... Surely they must have some absolutle gems of absolutle truth... Going by their posts it appears that way, wouldn't you say?


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    pone2012 wrote: »
    I want to know his opinion of what happened, what caused the big bang and how the universe came to be... And you are welcome to add yours if you wish
    Opinions don't come into it. Asking what happened before there was time is a contradiction in terms.
    Everyone here seems to be attempting to make jokes / snide comments at JCs expense...so I'm interested to see what other people's beliefs are... Surely they must have some absolutle gems of absolutle truth... Going by their posts it appears that way, wouldn't you say?

    No, I wouldn't. I would expect most people in this forum to say "I don't know", because that's the only honest answer about how the universe was created. Beliefs are irrelevant.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,236 ✭✭✭jigglypuffstuff


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Opinions don't come into it. Asking what happened before there was time is a contradiction in terms.

    And why is it that you say that? Are you assuming that nothing transcends time??

    No, I wouldn't. I would expect most people in this forum to say "I don't know", because that's the only honest answer about how the universe was created. Beliefs are irrelevant.

    Again what makes you say that? I'm genuinely curious


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,236 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    J C wrote: »
    Creation Scientists investigate the world and report their findings, like all other scientists.
    Many Evolutionists, on the other hand, are a horse of a different colour:-
    JC,
    You seem to have missed the entirety of oldrnwisr's post and seem to have mistakenly stolen and copypasted some random list that you clearly don't understand.

    I'm sure that this is some oversight and you'll be quick to go back and properly return the courtesy Old has given you by replying in a clear, well written and knowledgable way.


  • Moderators Posts: 51,805 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    King Mob wrote: »
    JC,
    You seem to have missed the entirety of oldrnwisr's post and seem to have mistakenly stolen and copypasted some random list that you clearly don't understand.

    Second link when you google "evolution fallacies".

    JCs source

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    pone2012 wrote: »
    Are you assuming that nothing transcends time??

    I don't even know what that question means.

    The definition of the word "before" is "earlier in time". So the question of what happened before time existed is logically meaningless.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,236 ✭✭✭jigglypuffstuff


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I don't even know what that question means.

    By you stating that nothing can happen "before" time, you are implying that everything that ever existed is bound by time then? Am I correct?


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,643 ✭✭✭Doctor Jimbob


    pone2012 wrote: »
    I want to know his opinion of what happened, what caused the big bang and how the universe came to be... And you are welcome to add yours if you wish

    Everyone here seems to be attempting to make jokes / snide comments at JCs expense...so I'm interested to see what other people's beliefs are... Surely they must have some absolutle gems of absolutle truth... Going by their posts it appears that way, wouldn't you say?

    J C gives every bit as good as he gets as far as the jokes and snide comments go, to be fair. Let's not pretend it's one-sided.

    What makes you think any of us know absolute truths? The only person who's claimed such in this thread, as far as I can see, is J C.


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,754 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    pone2012 wrote: »
    By you stating that nothing can happen "before" time, you are implying that everything that ever existed is bound by time then? Am I correct?

    Everything within time is bounded by time, but many abstracts are clearly not. For example, numerical concepts such as integers, language constructs such as nouns, etc... From a one perspective it is easiest to think of time as an unbounded linear scalar dimension, which plays well with Euclidean space. Worth remembering that all these things are just our ways of describing what we can observe and what we can imagine.


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