The Origin of Specious Nonsense. Twelve years on. Still going. Answer soon.

J C

Here is another video which develops the evidence for the invalidity of Evolution ... and looks at current scientific explanations for life

Mod: Video dump

Professor Moriarty

JC, one video is 47 minutes long and the other is 30. Nobody is going to watch them.

That's not discussion. Imagine if everyone did what you're doing, i.e. post videos without comment?

J C

Absolam wrote: »

I don't think knocking the hell out of religion is really a common occupation of atheists and agnostics, by and large. It's more a preoccupation of that little subset, anti-theists... and the forum hasn't (yet) been renamed, so you could understand some people being bemused by a good deal of the nonsense here. Specious or otherwise.

It seems that many Atheists not only don't believe that God (or gods) exist ... but if the God of the Bible does exist, they would reject Him and would have nothing to do with Him ... citing numerous negatives supposedly associated with Him.
They're also deeply anti-religion and especially anti-christian, as a result of their views on the God of the Bible.
I'm not sure whether this anti-God/Christian position is a new phenomenon amongst some Atheists ... or whether it has always existed.
I'd be interested in getting the views of Atheists on this.

Professor Moriarty

J C wrote: »

It seems that many Atheists not only don't believe that God (or gods) exist ... but if the God of the Bible does exist, they would reject Him and would have nothing to do with Him ... citing numerous negatives supposedly associated with Him.
They're also deeply anti-religion and especially anti-christian, as a result of their views on the God of the Bible.
I'm not sure whether this anti-God/Christian position is a new phenomenon amongst some Atheists ... or whether it has always existed.
I'd be interested in getting the views of Atheists on this.

You are missing the point. Religion had, and in many countries continues to have, a very negative effect on those who chose not to believe in whatever religion was dominant. It often pervades every aspect of society.

In Ireland, had Catholicism existed in such a way as to not impinge on the lives of atheists then I doubt if many atheists would pay any attention to Catholicism. For example, I don't really have much of an opinion on Hinduism simply because it hasn't impinged on my life.

However, I have first hand experience on how religion has blighted my existence despite my never believing in Jesus. So I have an opinion on Catholicism. Turning the argument around, how does atheism impinge on the lives of Catholics?

J C

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

You are missing the point. Religion had, and in many countries continues to have, a very negative effect on those who chose not to believe in whatever religion was dominant. It often pervades every aspect of society.

In Ireland, had Catholicism existed in such a way as to not impinge on the lives of atheists then I doubt if many atheists would pay any attention to Catholicism. For example, I don't really have much of an opinion on Hinduism simply because it hasn't impinged on my life.

However, I have first hand experience on how religion has blighted my existence despite my never believing in Jesus. So I have an opinion on Catholicism. Turning the argument around, how does atheism impinge on the lives of Catholics?

Thanks for sharing your views on this.
How did religion blight your existence?

Timberrrrrrrr

J C wrote: »

Thanks for sharing your views on this.
How did religion blight your existence?

Will you not answer his question?

Professor Moriarty

J C wrote: »

Thanks for sharing your views on this.
How did religion blight your existence?

I had to learn stuff about Jesus at school when I didn't believe a word of it. It managed my education. It filled the society I lived in with shame. It interfered in the setting of laws that I had to live under. Many of its representatives mentally, physically and sexually abused children placed in their care and it shielded those perpetrators. And so on.

How has atheism blighted your existence?

J C

Here is an example of what happens when a science teacher questions the scientific underpinnings of evolution ... and although this is in America, there would be just as swift a reaction in other countries as well.
Belief in Evolution is the only state protected scientific belief in America ... strange ... but true.

... and that is why the secularists always call for the separation of church and state ... and not the separation of belief and state.
... they actually want the state to continue to protect secularist beliefs, whilst actively suppressing alternative beliefs ... and when it comes to one of the prime secularist beliefs (spontaneous evolution) they have succeeded in their objective to have the state protect their belief in evolution from any questioning ... whilst suppressing all reference to any alternative beliefs.

Professor Moriarty

J C wrote: »

Here is an example of what happens when a science teacher questions the scientific underpinnings of evolution ... and although this is in America, there would be just as swift a reaction in other countries as well.
Belief in Evolution is the only state protected scientific belief in America ... strange ... but true.

... and that is why the secularists always call for the separation of church and state ... and not the separation of belief and state.
... they actually want the state to continue to protect secularist beliefs, whilst actively suppressing alternative beliefs ... and when it comes to one of the prime secularist beliefs (spontaneous evolution) they have succeeded in their objective to have the state protect their belief in evolution from any questioning ... whilst suppressing all reference to any alternative beliefs.

52 minutes. TLDW

smacl

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

52 minutes. TLDW

Hmm, random creationist videos with minimal comment, is that where we're at? Here's one...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSXs9ZGeNLI

J C

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I had to learn stuff about Jesus at school when I didn't believe a word of it. It managed my education. It filled the society I lived in with shame. It interfered in the setting of laws that I had to live under. Many of its representatives mentally, physically and sexually abused children placed in their care and it shielded those perpetrators. And so on.

How has atheism blighted your existence?

It hasn't had any effect on me personally ... yet ... but the strong anti-religious views being expressed by some Atheists, do seem to be gaining currency within society ... and if they succeed further then my faith may be discriminated against or even suppressed by the state.
There is precedent for this ... because when I was living happily here in the West, in the 50s and 60s ... with my beliefs respected and my right to hold them guaranteed by the state ... my fellow Christians where being worked to death in the gulags of Atheistic Soviet Russia ... or were confined to insane assylums on the pretext that because they believed in God they were 'insane' ... or needed 're-education' ... which was a euphemism for the adminstration of drugs ... and working them to death.
I sincerely hope that we will never experience what happened in Atheistic Russia again ... but the price of freedom is eternal vigilance.
Just like you seem to be wary of the RCC, because of what has happened in the past ... I'm just as wary of Secularism/Atheism ... for the very same reason.

The evolution controversy in America, where scientists or teachers who questions its orthodoxy, are punished and/or litigated against is ominous for the freedom of religion and belief guaranteed by the US Constitution. This doesn't give me much confidence that the God-less 'secular eutopia' ... currently being constructued throughout the World will be a place that will respect me and my beliefs.
Of course I could be wrong ... and I hope that I am ... but there is nobody giving me any assurance on this ... the reverse is actually the case.

J C

smacl wrote: »

Hmm, random creationist videos with minimal comment, is that where we're at?

There is some very significant principles and issues enunciated in these videos.
... and they make for thought-provoking viewing, to say the least.

Professor Moriarty

J C wrote: »

It hasn't had any effect on me personally ... yet ... but the strong anti-religious views being expressed by Atheists do seem to be gaining currency within society ... and if they succeed further then my faith may be discriminated against or even suppressed by the state.
There is precedent for this ... because when I was living happily here in the West, in the 50s and 60s ... with my beliefs respected and my right to hold them guaranteed by the state ... my fellow Christians where being worked to death in the gulags of Atheistic Soviet Russia ... or were confined to insane assylums on the pretext that because they believed in God they were 'insane' ... or needed 're-education' ... which was a euphemism for the adminstration of drugs ... and working them to death.
I sincerely hope that we will never experience what happened in Atheistic Russia again ... but the price of freedom is eternal vigilance.
Just like you seem to be wary of the RCC, because of what has happened in the past ... I'm just as wary of Secularism/Atheism ... for the very same reason.

The evolution controversy in America, where scientists or teachers who questions its orthodoxy, are punished and/or litigated against is ominous for the freedom of religion and belief guaranteed by the US Constitution.

So my life has been blighted by religion whereas your life has not been blighted by atheism. QED.

mickrock

J C wrote: »

The evolution controversy in America, where scientists or teachers who questions its orthodoxy, are punished and/or litigated against is ominous for the freedom of religion and belief guaranteed by the US Constitution.

In the Meyer video above he quotes a Chinese scientist speaking in America:

"In China we can question Darwinism but not the government. In America you can question the government but not Darwinism."

J C

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Turning the argument around, how does atheism impinge on the lives of Catholics?

It is certainly starting to ... with secular demands for Roman Catholics to hand over their schools and hospitals ... and in this regard, the said secularists are calling on the state to assist them in geting this done.
... what we're seeing is the separation of church and state ... and the coming together of secularists and the state.

J C

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

So my life has been blighted by religion whereas your life has not been blighted by atheism. QED.

Your life appears to have been 'blighted' by the mention of Jesus Christ at the school you attended ... my life hasn't been blighted by anybody ... but my fellow Christians have been killed in atheistic Russia, because they wouldn't deny their faith.

Professor Moriarty

J C wrote: »

It is certainly starting to ... with secular demands for Roman Catholics to hand over their schools and hospitals ... and in this regard, the said secularists are calling on the state to assist them in geting this done.
... what we're seeing is the separation of church and state ... and the coming together of secularists and the state.

Separation of church and state is long overdue. In that context, secularisation is right and proper wouldn't you agree?

J C

mickrock wrote: »

In the Meyer video above he quotes a Chinese scientist speaking in America:

"In China we can question Darwinism but not the government. In America you can question the government but not Darwinism."

Quite true ... and it shows how, bizzzarely, Darwinism has become a 'state sanctioned religion' in America.

Professor Moriarty

J C wrote: »

Your life appears to have been 'blighted' by the mention of Jesus Christ at the school you attended ... my life hasn't been blighted by anybody ... but my fellow Christians have been killed in atheistic Russia, because they wouldn't deny their faith.

My life was much more blighted by religion than just the mention of Jesus as I wrote in my post. But you know that. Self-admittedly your life has not been blighted by atheism. So our lived experience proves that religion blights lives while atheism doesn't.

J C

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Separation of church and state is long overdue. In that context, secularisation is right and proper wouldn't you agree?

... not if the 'secularisation' is going to be even worse for people of faith, than what was there before.

The levels of aggression shown on this forum against all faiths ... doesn't give me any confidence that replacing Roman Catholicism with secularism, will be any improvement ... quite the reverse, in fact.

Please tell me how I'm wrong ... and secularism will increase the respect with which people of faith will be regarded?

Professor Moriarty

J C wrote: »

... not if the 'secularisation' is going to be even worse for people of faith, than what was there before.

The levels of aggression shown on this forum against all faiths ... doesn't give me any confidence that replacing Roman Catholicism with secularism, will be any improvement ... quite the reverse, in fact.

Please tell me how I'm wrong ... and secularism will increase the respect with which people of faith will be regarded?

Hopefully it will be given its proper place in society. This would mean having no influence on government, education, health etc. with believers free to practice their religion in a way that does not impinge on other people in any way.

J C

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

My life was much more blighted by religion than just the mention of Jesus as I wrote in my post. But you know that. Self-admittedly your life has not been blighted by atheism. So our lived experience proves that religion blights lives while atheism doesn't.

No, the real question is how either worldview behaves when it is in the ascendent ... and has power over people.
You complain about relatively trifling issues in relation to yourself, when you and I lived under an ascendent Roman Catholic influence ... whereas I'm citing horror stories about how Christians were treated, when they lived under ascendent secularism in Russia, within living memory.

I would be prepared to accept that atheistic Russia was some kind of exception ... but for what I'm hearing from agressive secularists and their total dismissal of the rights and beliefs of people of faith.

Professor Moriarty

J C wrote: »

No, the real question is how either worldview behaves when it is in the ascendent ... and has power over people.
You complain about relatively trifling issues in relation to yourself, when you and I lived under an ascendent Roman Catholic influence ... whereas I'm citing horror stories about how Christians were treated, when they lived under ascendent secularism in Russia, within living memory.

I would be prepared to accept that atheistic Russia was some kind of exception ... but for what I'm hearing from agressive secularists and their total dismissal of the rights and beliefs of people of faith.

Physical, mental and sexual abuse of children is relatively trivial?????

What happened in Russia has nothing to do atheism and everything to do with totalitarianism. Let's face it. Atheism has very little to apologise for whereas religion has a great deal to apologise for. Our personal experiences are evidence as we've agreed.

J C

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Hopefully it will be given its proper place in society. This would mean having no influence on government, education, health etc. with believers free to practice their religion in a way that does not impinge on other people in any way.

That's exactly what worries me ... what you describe is a perfect recipe for the suppression of both religion and people of faith.
This was the exact rhetoric used by the Atheistic Communists who took over Russia in the 1920's.
No mention of 'live and let live' ... or 'respect for religious diversity' in your 'brave new secularist world' ...
... where no concession will be made to faith on any issue and ... people of faith must be silent about their faith ... while secularists promote their worldview with the full resourses of the state at their disposal to do so.

smacl

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Hopefully it will be given its proper place in society. This would mean having no influence on government, education, health etc. with believers free to practice their religion in a way that does not impinge on other people in any way.

This. It is reasonable for your unsubstantiated beliefs in ancient mythology to dictate how you behave. In is unreasonable your unsubstantiated beliefs in ancient mythology to dictate how anyone else should behave. This is pretty much all that secularists aspire to, and by this definition most Christians in this country are also secularist. For example, the Roman Catholic Church has said that gay people should not be allowed to marry. The Irish people have said they should. The Roman Catholic Church has said that the morning after pill should be banned as its use constitutes abortion. The Irish people have said this is not the case and allow it. No one is forcing anyone else to actually do these things if it acts against their beliefs, they're merely saying they can't deny those rights to others.

Professor Moriarty

J C wrote: »

That's exactly what worries me ... what you describe is a perfect recipe for the suppression of both religion and people of faith.
This was the exact rhetoric used by the Atheistic Communists who took over Russia in the 1920's.
No mention of 'live and let live' ... or 'respect for religious diversity' in your 'brave new secularist world' ...
... where no concession will be made to faith on any issue and ... people of faith must be silent about their faith ... while secularists promote their worldview with the full resourses of the state at their disposal to do so.

Why should religion have influence over government, education, health etc?

If people are free to practice their religion in a way that doesn't impinge on other people how is that religion being suppressed?

J C

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Physical, mental and sexual abuse of children is relatively trivial?????

I was talking about what happened to you and me ... i.e. our personal experiences.

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

What happened in Russia has nothing to do atheism and everything to do with totalitarianism. Let's face it. Atheism has very little to apologise for whereas religion has a great deal to apologise for. Our personal experiences are evidence as we've agreed.

Whatever, you call it ... it was directly linked to the take-over by aggressive secularists of a formerly Christian European country.
... and when you start saying that a secular utopia involves completely ignoring and marginalising people of faith ... this is quite 'hair-raising' stuff for any Christian (or a member any other religion, for that matter) to hear.

Professor Moriarty

J C wrote: »

I was talking about what happened to you and me ... i.e. our personal experiences.

Whatever, you call it ... it was directly linked to the take-over by aggressive secularists of a formerly Christian European country.
... and when you start saying that a secular utopia involves completely ignoring and marginalising people of faith ... this is quite 'hair-raising' stuff for any Christian (or a member any other religion, for that matter) to hear.

I was physically and mentally abused by members of the Catholic Church.

Why should the state concern itself with matters of faith? What's wrong with being left alone to practice your faith as long as you don't impinge on others?

Timberrrrrrrr

J C wrote: »

I was talking about what happened to you and me ... i.e. our personal experiences.

Had several shades of you know what beaten out of me by several members of the Catholic clergy over the years so physical and mental abuse for me is a personal experience.

As far as I am aware I have never even been spoken rudely to by an atheist.

Whatever, you call it ... it was directly linked to the take-over by aggressive secularists of a formerly Christian European country.
... and when you start saying that a secular utopia involves completely ignoring and marginalising people of faith ... this is quite 'hair-raising' stuff for any Christian (or a member any other religion, for that matter) to hear.

Where has he (or anyone else) said this?

Professor Moriarty

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Had several shades of you know what beaten out of me by several members of the Catholic clergy over the years so physical and mental abuse for me is a personal experience.

As far as I am aware I have never even been spoken rudely to by an atheist.



Where has he (or anyone else) said this?

He always puts words in my mouth but for the sake of discussion I ignore it.