Suggest tropical fish for a new 60l tank.

Neyite

Hi all,

just bought our first tank, complete with filter, heater, etc. I have read the cycling thread last night and have a couple of questions.

We washed all the fake rock and fake plants and the gravel before putting into the tank. I like the idea of real plants down the line but for now I'll concentrate on learning about how to keep the fish first.

Himself added the water and added the correct amount of Safe Start by the time I read that we needed dechlorinator, so that is first on the list, along with test tube kits and a working thermometer. Will we need to empty the tank, add the declorinator then add in some safe start?

Presumably then we wait until the ammonia and nitrite levels hit zero and the nitrate level is at an acceptable level before gradually adding fish little by little.

So, while I'm waiting for the tank to cycle, help me choose my fish Which ones are good for a little shoal? what would you suggest for top/middle/bottom fish? Also, how many of each? If anyone could suggest a colourful, easy to maintain, starter colony for me to buy gradually in the correct quantities I'd be most grateful

Silverfish

Firstly, you need to cycle using a source of ammonia, since that's the waste that fish produce. So either by adding fish food, or pure ammonia (Jeyes Kleenoff is pure ammonia, also Boots sell pure ammonia too) or else Waterlife's Biomature, which is also a source of ammonia.
You'll need a test kit (drops not strips) to test for ammonia, nitrites and nitrates, so the API Freshwater master test kit is good value.
I'd also recommend a gh test kit to see what type of water you have and that will help you choose what fish will thrive in the type of water you have.

You can add the dechlorinator after you've filled the tank, but when doing water changes in future, it's better to add it to the water before it goes in.

Then you do this

Presumably then we wait until the ammonia and nitrite levels hit zero and the nitrate level is at an acceptable level before gradually adding fish little by little.

The next step then is going into a shop and looking to see what you like - but do wait and do some research first, as some fish will outgrow a tank, or not be compatible at all, so don't be talked into red tailed catfish or common plecos!

The cycling will take 4 - 6 weeks so you have a bit of time to find what you'd like.

Neyite

Silverfish wrote: »

Firstly, you need to cycle using a source of ammonia, since that's the waste that fish produce. So either by adding fish food, or pure ammonia (Jeyes Kleenoff is pure ammonia, also Boots sell pure ammonia too) or else Waterlife's Biomature, which is also a source of ammonia.
You'll need a test kit (drops not strips) to test for ammonia, nitrites and nitrates, so the API Freshwater master test kit is good value.
I'd also recommend a gh test kit to see what type of water you have and that will help you choose what fish will thrive in the type of water you have.

You can add the dechlorinator after you've filled the tank, but when doing water changes in future, it's better to add it to the water before it goes in.

Then you do this

The next step then is going into a shop and looking to see what you like - but do wait and do some research first, as some fish will outgrow a tank, or not be compatible at all, so don't be talked into red tailed catfish or common plecos!

The cycling will take 4 - 6 weeks so you have a bit of time to find what you'd like.

4-6 weeks? so much for the shop guy saying a week. :rolleyes: I'm glad I know that because I want to do it properly, wouldnt be fair on the fish otherwise.

He also said that we could fit about 25 fish in the tank, but I really dont think so - from my very rudimentary googling, about half that is correct, anything else is overcrowding. And he also told us to use twice as much SafeStart than we actually needed according to the instructions. Hmmm...

I do want to wisely choose the fish, so will take my time and can buy as I go along anyway.

Mr Whirly

It could take 4-6 weeks but it will probably be closer to 2. I would be careful adding pure ammonia. This could send your ammonia levels through the roof causing the cycle to take far longer. A pinch of food is normally enough to kick off a cycle.

Once your tests are reading 0 for ammonia and nitrite you should be good to go. Add the fish very slowly.

Cherry barbs, danios etc are nice hardy suitable fish. By the sounds of it I'd try find a better shop which can offer you good advice.

Safestart is supposed to allow you to add the fish immediately. I have had varied results with it. I probably wouldn't recommend it for novices. Stick to a decent dechlorinater and do regular 20% water changes. Test religiously for the first few months and don't clean your filters under the tap and you should be grand.

Silverfish

Mr Whirly wrote: »

It could take 4-6 weeks but it will probably be closer to 2. I would be careful adding pure ammonia. This could send your ammonia levels through the roof causing the cycle to take far longer. A pinch of food is normally enough to kick off a cycle.

Not if you dose it correctly, usually to 4 ppm, which is about the amount of waste produced by a stocked tank. A pinch of food will start the cycle, but if you're trying to cycle accurately, its hard to gauge how much ammonia exactly a pinch of food will produce.
It takes 4 weeks for the bacteria to colonise the filter, so two weeks would be risking it a bit I think.

Mr Whirly

I have never had to wait 4 weeks to cycle a tank. I'd be interested to see where you got that information from.


I have also never used pure ammonia as the margin for error is tiny. How many mm would you suggest for a 50 litre tank after taking in to account the water displacement from the filter, heater, gravel, decorations etc ?

Silverfish

Mr Whirly wrote: »

I have never had to wait 4 weeks to cycle a tank. I'd be interested to see where you got that information from.


I have also never used pure ammonia as the margin for error is tiny. How many mm would you suggest for a 50 litre tank after taking in to account the water displacement from the filter, heater, gravel, decorations etc ?

By 'pure ammonia' I mean the products that are just diluted ammonia, normally containing in or around 9% ammonia, 'pure' ammonia would be almost impossible to buy. But some people try to cycle with cleaning products that would contain ammonia and other cleaning ingredients, these won't work. If you are using a 9% ammonia solution, then 3 mls would get a 60L aquarium to 4ppm ammonia.
I can't take into account displacement because it's not my tank, I can't see whether there's an inch of gravel on the bottom or whether it's half filled
But if it was my own tank, I would know to the litre how much water I just put in it, and add ammonia accordingly.

How much fish food would you recommend to cycle a tank to 4ppm ammonia? How much ammonia does it produce by weight? How long does it take for the ammonia to be fully converted to nitrite? And then to nitrate? I would say fish food is as hard to quantify as a measurable liquid, but perhaps if you explain it further it might be clearer, because a pinch of food means different things to different people, and do you just add it once, or every day? Your post didn't really explain, so I'm a bit unclear.


I got the 4-6 weeks guideline information from:

http://www.fishkeeping.co.uk/articles_51/fishless-cycling-article.htm.
http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=2491
http://www.fishlore.com/fishforum/freshwater-beginners/19627-ammonia-instructions-fishless-cycle.html
http://petskeepersguide.com/fishless-cycle-nitrogen-cycle/
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/fishless_cycling.php
amongst others.

I've cycled tanks in less time using mature media, but I'm assuming the OP is starting from scratch.

Mr Whirly

In your first post you suggested using pure ammonia. What I am getting at is that is unnecessary.

I also wouldn't use cleaning products to cycle a tank. A couple of flakes of food and away you go. Wait for the ammonia to spike and hit 0, same for nitrite and then start adding fish. Far less complicated and has never caused me any problems.

Neyite

I am fully starting from scratch, and have not kept fish previously so I'm a total novice here.

Silverfish

Mr Whirly wrote: »

In your first post you suggested using pure ammonia. What I am getting at is that is unnecessary.

I also wouldn't use cleaning products to cycle a tank. A couple of flakes of food and away you go. Wait for the ammonia to spike and hit 0, same for nitrite and then start adding fish. Far less complicated and has never caused me any problems.

Ok, but how much food and how often, for a 60L tank including displacement, or is it just the one pinch and that will cycle the tank?

Mr Whirly

Add a few flakes. Wait four or five days. Test to see if there is a level of ammonia. If not add more. Once the ammonia and nitrite has hit 0 and there is a reading of nitrate the cycle is complete. IME this usually happens within 2-3 weeks.

None of them articles suggest it should take longer than this. I know it could but your test results will speak for themselves.

Silverfish

I think it's to do with the amount of time it takes for the ammonia to be converted fully to nitrates, there might be a nitrate reading but there could also be an ammonia reading, which wouldn't be great, so maybe the extra time is to make sure there's enough bacteria to convert it quickly enough that it doesn't affect the fish maybe.

So I suppose it's up to Neyite whichever option she wants to take, if the tank is stocked slowly and tested regularly it would all be manageable anyway.

Mr Whirly

Fair enough but as far as I'm concerned once ammonia and nitrate are 0 after there was a level you should be fine. I'm not doubting your method. There's lots of different ways of doing things in this hobby.

To be honest at this stage if I was the op i would chuck the rest of the safe start in and carry out the tests over the next week or so. If everything looks good I would start adding fish.

A test kit is 100% essential here though because once the fish go in if any of the levels start to rise water changes will need to be done quickly. Then carry out 20% weekly water changes using a dechlorinator.

lynchie

I cycled my tank using ammonia from homebase. Dosed it to 4pmm and waited.. Was almost 36 days before the ammonia dropped and I got my nitrite spike. Was another two weeks after that before it had settled and was processing 4pmm ammonia / nitrite in 12 hours back down to 0. It was a little longer than the average time taken to cycle but was worth the wait.

CruelCoin

Neyite wrote: »

Hi all,

just bought our first tank, complete with filter, heater, etc. I have read the cycling thread last night and have a couple of questions.

We washed all the fake rock and fake plants and the gravel before putting into the tank. I like the idea of real plants down the line but for now I'll concentrate on learning about how to keep the fish first.

Some plants that have a reputation as being hard as nails and suitable for beginners are: Java fern, Anubias, Vallisneria. Java fern is a medium green fern. Anubias is a small compact plant with braod leaves, brilliant in low light. Vallisneria is a type of grass, which give good background cover, quick growing.

Fake rock is good, as it eliminates the chance for leaching to occur, so the rocks won't affect your water parameters.

Himself added the water and added the correct amount of Safe Start by the time I read that we needed dechlorinator, so that is first on the list, along with test tube kits and a working thermometer. Will we need to empty the tank, add the declorinator then add in some safe start?

I'm never a fan of safe start, etc. Good water management beats the need for chemicals hands down.
An alternative is to get a few water drums, and go get some RO water from your local fish-shop. RO remineralised, is far better for your fish than tap water with dechloninator in it. Also, using dechlorinator means you need to use carbon in your filter to remove it. But carbon also removes any fertiliser you put into the tank, so if you ever want to go for some live plants, then RO water is really the only way to go.


Presumably then we wait until the ammonia and nitrite levels hit zero and the nitrate level is at an acceptable level before gradually adding fish little by little.

So, while I'm waiting for the tank to cycle, help me choose my fish Which ones are good for a little shoal? what would you suggest for top/middle/bottom fish? Also, how many of each? If anyone could suggest a colourful, easy to maintain, starter colony for me to buy gradually in the correct quantities I'd be most grateful

Fish choices depend on tank dimensions. Is it a tall or long tank?
Fish like angelfish prefer tall tanks, while small shoalers prefer long tanks.

For a 60lt, i would say stay clear of anything that will grow too large. So no plecos, no knifefish, no angels, no discus.

Perfect for you would be some tetras, as these are by and large peacefull fish, that stay pretty small. They are also commonly captive bred making them hardy fish.

A common tank mix for beginners is a small shoal of 8-10 tetras, 3-4 bottom feeders like Corydoras.

I would go for Panda Cory's and Neon tetras. (alternatively cardinal tetras, which are basically larger, more colourful neons, and a bit more delicate).

I would also strongly suggest some Assasin snails. You will at some point have a pest snail outbreak, we all do. Assasins are essentially hunter killer snails that will seek out pest snails in the tank. 2-3 Assasins will do you. Bear in mind that these are prolific breeders, feeding off scraps, snails etc. I have assasins in all 3 tanks, and they breed quick enough, that i can collect and trade in 20 of them each time i go to the fish-shop. It's essentially free fish food for life after trading in.

Welcome to the hobby! Welcome! "evil grin and steepled fingers".
I started with a 55 lt tank back in September of last year. I now have a 55lt, 210lt main, 15lt shrimp tank.
Am also now considering a 150lt marine tank, and trying to think of how to convince the other half to agree to it. (little free space left, adn she balked at the 15lt).
Once you start, it's quite easy to get hooked.

Oh, shameless plug, but there is a stickied thread i started, with loads of links you can read up on.
Of particular use for you will be the fish compatability charts, so you can see which types of fish can coexist in your tank.


I have some tips for you above in Red.

paddy147

CruelCoin wrote: »

Welcome to the hobby! Welcome! "evil grin and steepled fingers".

I have some tips for you above in Red.

Brislenose plecs grow to around 3.5 inches long.

I have 3 in my Discuss tank (1 of them had babies so now have 6) and they are a beautifull plec indeed.

You would hardly know that they are there.:)

baron von something

the cycling process is all trial and error which is half the fun getting the experience of doing it right.my first cycle was a disaster wit ammonia and nitrite spikes off the chart and it took me a while to get it right.its a great learning curve.as for stocking isnt the general rule 1inch of fish per gallon of water

kylith

baron von something wrote: »

the cycling process is all trial and error which is half the fun getting the experience of doing it right.my first cycle was a disaster wit ammonia and nitrite spikes off the chart and it took me a while to get it right.its a great learning curve.as for stocking isnt the general rule 1inch of fish per gallon of water

I've heard that, but I don't think it's right. It might work with small fish, but put a 10" pleco in a 10G tank and see how happy it looks

CruelCoin

baron von something wrote: »

the cycling process is all trial and error which is half the fun getting the experience of doing it right.my first cycle was a disaster wit ammonia and nitrite spikes off the chart and it took me a while to get it right.its a great learning curve.as for stocking isnt the general rule 1inch of fish per gallon of water

Cycling shouldn't be trial and error.

Introduce ammonia source........wait untill 0ppm ammonia, 0ppm nitrite, xppm nitrate.

Where is the trial and error? Those ammonia and nitrite spikes are normal, expected and desired during cycling. They show the cultures are building in your filter.

http://fins.actwin.com/mirror/begin-cycling.html

1 inch per gallon is a very basic way to calculate stocking.

Some fish produce multiple of the amount of waste that other species do. Goldfish, for example being massive waste producers.

Its generally reccomended that you buy fish such that you will have one inch of fish (excluding snout/fins) per gallon, at an adult size.

I tend to ignore this however, as the majority of fish-shops are now only too happy to exchange fish for credit, meaning you can stock more heavily, and trade them in as the grow.

OP, one great way to reduce the amount of water changes you will have to do, is to heavily plant the tank.
Plants will consume nitrates, and my 210lt tank is at the point where my plants are consuming the nitrate faster than it is produced.
My tank constantly reads at 0ppm ammonia, 0ppm nitrite, 0ppm nitrate.
The main reason for water changes is to reduce your nitrate, but there is no need if there is no nitrate to begin with! At that point, you water change only to replenish minerals. I'm actually having to add nitrate as a suplement for my plants....

baron von something

CruelCoin wrote: »

Cycling shouldn't be trial and error.

Introduce ammonia source........wait untill 0ppm ammonia, 0ppm nitrite, xppm nitrate.

Where is the trial and error?

i was unsure how to get the ammonia to 4ppm so for me it was trial to see how many mls to add.i wasnt aware at the time that there were calculators online that worked it out for you

CruelCoin

baron von something wrote: »

i was unsure how to get the ammonia to 4ppm so for me it was trial to see how many mls to add.i wasnt aware at the time that there were calculators online that worked it out for you

Ah, ok. I used a bottle of household ammonia which said "5-9%"....Made it a bit interesting.

COYW

Sorry for jumping into your thread OP but I have decided to move into the fish world. I have always wanted a nice tank with tropical fish and thankfully I am in a position to do this now.

Anyway, can someone point me in the right direction shop wise. I am based in West Dublin. I am only looking for a small tank to hold some Cherry barbs or something along that line. What other fish are good for beginners like myself?

CruelCoin

COYW wrote: »

Sorry for jumping into your thread OP but I have decided to move into the fish world. I have always wanted a nice tank with tropical fish and thankfully I am in a position to do this now.

Anyway, can someone point me in the right direction shop wise. I am based in West Dublin. I am only looking for a small tank to hold some Cherry barbs or something along that line. What other fish are good for beginners like myself?

Welcome!

"Steeples fingers"

Two of the most popular shops within reach of you are: Arthane Aquatics, and Seahorse Aquariums.

Seahorse has a much bigger range, but is packed, and i felt the staff don't have time to talk to you to answer any questions.

Preference personally is for Arthane.

Alternatively, Newlands garden centre have a decent aquarium/fish range.

Good starters depend on your tank size.

Be aware that Barbs are fairly aggressive and will nibble the fins of anything else with long/extravagant fins (angelfish, bettas, guppies, etc).

Anything tetra would suit you perfectly. These have been tank bred for a long time now, and most species will happily tank most any tank conditions.

Can you give us your tank dimensions? Would help me give better suggestions. Tall tanks suit some fish better than long tanks, and hard/soft water will also narrow it down a bit more.

COYW

CruelCoin wrote: »

Can you give us your tank dimensions? Would help me give better suggestions. Tall tanks suit some fish better than long tanks, and hard/soft water will also narrow it down a bit more.

Hi CruelCoin,

I am starting from scratch and I don't have a tank yet. What is best for the fish that are listed in the post above?

Thanks,

COYW

CruelCoin

COYW wrote: »

Hi CruelCoin,

I am starting from scratch and I don't have a tank yet. What is best for the fish that are listed in the post above?

Thanks,

COYW

Most newbies start with a community aquarium. This is a mix of peacefull hardy fish, that will tolerate a wide range of conditions.

Most then graduate from that to species/biotope specific aquariums.

A general rule of thumb is to buy the biggest tank you can afford. The larger the water volume, the less prone you will be to swings in water parameters. More stable water conditions puts less stress on you (water change frequency, curbing algae growth) and less stress on the fish.

Tall tanks will favour larger fish such as angelfish, etc.
Long tanks will favour smaller shoaling fish.

The best advice i can give you is to choose a species that you particularly like the look of, and then build a tank around them.
Jamming fish into "whatever" will result in fish that don't show their true colours or proper behaviours.

The fish you choose will determine your target PH, substrate choice, tank dimensions, plants or not.

The average community has a few hardy plants (anubias and java fern are favourites), a aquarium soil, ph of 6.8-7.2. Providing hiding places (rock caves, coconut shells with a hole in them) will prevent smaller fish hiding all day in a corner as they will feel more secure.


List of cummunity fish
http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/easyfish.htm

Compatability chart so you can see what will leave peacefully with what
http://www.aquariumlife.net/fishcomp.asp

paul71

Neyite wrote: »

He also said that we could fit about 25 fish in the tank,

Did you say a 60ltr tank, and he told you 25 fish?

Never buy anything from whoever told you that again. There are shops where you can get good advice, shops where you can get bad advice, and now it seems there are shops who sell fish in the hope that they will die and you come back to buy more, glad you researched it more yourself and have realised that half that number is the upper limit of what you can stock and that would by fish who will not grow far past 1 inch.

Another method to kick start your cylcle is to get a squese an amount of water from the filter sponge of a fully cycled tank, but only do this if it comes from the tank of an experienced fishkeeper who knows he has had no recent disease or infections in his tank.

For a 60 litre tank I would suggest Tiger barbs, get a mixture of striped and greens, lovely lively fish who chase each other arround the tank.

Neyite

In the end we went to another shop where the owner has been keeping aquariums for 25 years. He and his assistant were extremely knowledgeable about what fish are compatable.

So our community at the moment is:
1 glass catfish
1 male siamese fighter
2 male platys
4 zebra danios
6 harlequin rasbora
and most recently 4 blue tetra (but they will be going back I think because one or two are nipping at the littlest danio and also our siamese, and we will get some less bullying fish - something with a nice bit of colour.

I'm not sure we could put barbs in with the ones we have at the moment, thats an idea now for my next tank! (and I reaaallly want a marine tank too when we have enough experience gained in fish keeping)

gawd, this aquarium caper is addictive eh? :pac:

paul71

Sounds like a good mix you have, and you are correct, you could not introduce tiger barbs to that tank now. Tigers are aggressive unless they can shoal in a group of at least 8. That many and your tank would be overstocked, any fewer and they will fin-nip other fish in the tank.

PS very additive, I started with 23ltr fluval edge given to me as christmas present and now on 5 tanks.

Rangi

Glass cats need to be in groups of at least half a dozen to be happy.

I wouldn't put barbs in there, as has been said they can be rather nippy. The fighter in particular would get a bit of grief, they're not really that suited to a community, generally.

A 60ltr tank will only have 60ltrs of water in it when it is full to the brim, and has no substrate, rocks, wood, etc.

Welcome to a very addictive hobby, we all know how hard it is to avoid coming out of a shop with new fish every visit! Easy way round that of course, is to buy more tanks!

COYW

My aquarium is set up now and I have 5 cherry barbs in there. Looking to add some gold or rosy barbs to it soon. Heard they need to be kept in groups of 5 or more. So I'll get 5.

Also, I would like to get some guppies but I am going to hold off for a while as I believe they are quite sensitive and need to be placed in a well established environment. Is this true?

Marcin_diy

COYW wrote: »

Also, I would like to get some guppies but I am going to hold off for a while as I believe they are quite sensitive and need to be placed in a well established environment. Is this true?

It is not true.
There is a reason why guppies are so recommended to beginners - they are small, but very hard fish. They can live in bad conditions longer than most other fish. You can be surprised, but when I was on holidays in Dominican Republic guppies were in every water puddle near the hotel. 20cm of water, few on few meters size, lot of plants, very very warm. There were tons of them everywhere.

of course every finish has some limits, and if you put guppy to the new tank it will die quickly, but what experienced fish keepers sometimes do is to wait until tank cycle is completed, put few guppies just for a try and to let them produce some food for bacterias, only then after some time they put more valuable species into the tank.




Somebody said here that they were given plattys to the 60l tank - it is not perfect. Plattys like to chase each other ( especially males) and they need their own space. They also like heavily planted aquariums.


Community tank is good, but:

many fish species can't be there on their own - they need a group of the same kind in the tank.

It is really a good idea to plan fish species in this way :

something that is on the bottom ( corrys)
in the middle area
and fast swimmers for the top of aquarium.

if you have 2, or 3 fish of the same kind in aquarium they will nt show their natural behaviour.

IMO it is much better to keep one or two species than a fish soup.


I do have heavily planted 160l tank and keep in it:
red cherry shrimps on the bottom
panda corrys on the bottom

Tetra rummynose on the top (10)
Microrasbora Galaxy in the middle (20)



It is really nice to see thos fish swimming in a group - they look and behave completely different than 2 or 3 fish.