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Is it Time for the tui &co to step up?

  • 18-02-2013 10:15pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 214 ✭✭


    Just watching the news and I think a point was well made tonight about further cuts to PS pay..is it time our unions made the same point a bit more forcefully. I think they have been very timid and it is now time for a strong demonstration of our feelings.Would you support a protest? and what would work best in your opinion? I know easter is coming !!!

    Will a teachers strike achieve a meaningful change in conditions? 50 votes

    Yes it will change the dynamics of the situation( with accurate planning)
    0% 0 votes
    No , it will not achieve anything
    58% 29 votes
    It depends on the other PS Unions acting in unison
    42% 21 votes


«13456710

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 122 ✭✭Razorfish


    I agree that the TUI has not been vocal enough and the same could be said for the ASTI.

    If there is a new agreement, it will consist of a diminution of our terms and conditions and most likely a pay cut as well. If there isn't a new agreement our pay will be cut.

    I think we should draw a line in the sand and like the 24/7 alliance say no more to cuts in pay. Property tax, water tax (next year), the pension levy, usc, higher VAT, the pay cut we already took and they want more. With a mortgage and childcare added, its hard to make ends meet as it is.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,976 ✭✭✭doc_17


    And when Howlin came in and said that this will be the last time they come to us are we to presume that the eduction budget will be left alone in Budget 2014/15 an 2016?

    No.

    They will swing the hatchet again.

    The way I see it is this. Two options.

    1. Negotiate our pay cut and have extra hours thrown in on top to make our lives misery.

    2. Withdraw from talks. Take a pay cut and tell them to go to hell with any extra hours. We are refusing to do it. Are they gonna sack 50 thousand teachers?

    Since it is inevitable that pay will be cut, why should we negotiate it and inflict more stupid croke park hours on ourselves?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,428 ✭✭✭Powerhouse


    Some people are saying that it is inevitable that pay will be cut - just wondering what has been said about this?

    I was under the impression that S & S was inevitably a goner but hadn't realised they were targetting core pay as well. Can anyone confirm? I heard Howlin on the radio this morning and he was acknowledging the hit the PS had taken on core pay already and it sounded as if they were now targetting allowances, extra payments and the like.

    Can anyone confirm what has been said about core pay cuts?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,363 ✭✭✭Juniorhurler


    doc_17 wrote: »
    And when Howlin came in and said that this will be the last time they come to us are we to presume that the eduction budget will be left alone in Budget 2014/15 an 2016?

    No.

    They will swing the hatchet again.

    The way I see it is this. Two options.

    1. Negotiate our pay cut and have extra hours thrown in on top to make our lives misery.

    2. Withdraw from talks. Take a pay cut and tell them to go to hell with any extra hours. We are refusing to do it. Are they gonna sack 50 thousand teachers?

    Since it is inevitable that pay will be cut, why should we negotiate it and inflict more stupid croke park hours on ourselves?


    Agree 100%. Just said the same thing this morning.


  • Registered Users Posts: 301 ✭✭Chilli Con Kearney


    There are so many potential difficulties with S&S, i.e. teachers who opted out years ago and have received no payment no being brought in, pensionable income being taken from workers, etc. That said, I still thought it was up for being cut.

    The ASTI and TUI are saying nothing. I reckon they are just letting the 24/7 contingent go off on a tangent, meanwhile sitting there saying "Look at us, we aren't kicking up a fuss and the S&S is still up for discussion. We're good boys". Which puts them in a better place bargaining-wise (they reckon) compared to the lads next to them shouting about giving up nothing.

    Anyway, teachers don't have overtime or premium pay to cut, it's not like there is much fat left to trim.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,363 ✭✭✭Juniorhurler


    There are so many potential difficulties with S&S, i.e. teachers who opted out years ago and have received no payment no being brought in, pensionable income being taken from workers, etc. That said, I still thought it was up for being cut.

    The ASTI and TUI are saying nothing. I reckon they are just letting the 24/7 contingent go off on a tangent, meanwhile sitting there saying "Look at us, we aren't kicking up a fuss and the S&S is still up for discussion. We're good boys". Which puts them in a better place bargaining-wise (they reckon) compared to the lads next to them shouting about giving up nothing.

    Anyway, teachers don't have overtime or premium pay to cut, it's not like there is much fat left to trim.


    After the fat they will trim the flesh and they will trim it without anaesthetic too.


  • Registered Users Posts: 926 ✭✭✭fall


    Teachers reported back to our school today from TUI meeting last night. They were told the proposals are:
    Last payment of s and s will be march
    S and s will become compulsory for all teachers without pay, so all teachers will be doing an hours free substitution every week
    A and b posts will be scrapped for good.
    Current A post teachers will be in the classroom 22 hours
    They were unclear if this means that teachers currently being paid for these posts will be stripped off their allowances.
    There was also a mention of cuts for those earning over €60,000.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 565 ✭✭✭thefasteriwalk


    fall wrote: »
    Teachers reported back to our school today from TUI meeting last night. They were told the proposals are:
    Last payment of s and s will be march
    S and s will become compulsory for all teachers without pay, so all teachers will be doing an hours free substitution every week
    A and b posts will be scrapped for good.
    Current A post teachers will be in the classroom 22 hours
    They were unclear if this means that teachers currently being paid for these posts will be stripped off their allowances.
    There was also a mention of cuts for those earning over €60,000.

    Oh my God. This is relentlessly disheartening. If current A post holders have to work an additional 4 hours in the classroom, countless part-time staff will lose their jobs. I'm really going to have to seriously look at training for other professions.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,976 ✭✭✭doc_17


    Oh my God. This is relentlessly disheartening. If current A post holders have to work an additional 4 hours in the classroom, countless part-time staff will lose their jobs. I'm really going to have to seriously look at training for other professions.


    Is the 4 hour reduction in teaching hours (in VEC sector) taken into account when deciding teaching allocation for the year? For instance, if a school had an A post appointed does that school have 4 less teaching hours to use or do the VEC then allocate an additional 4 hours to compensate?


  • Registered Users Posts: 926 ✭✭✭fall


    Well it is not set in stone but it is what is proposed. It is very dis heartening and just shows that there is a complete disregard for all the other elements of our job outside the classroom. They really must think we just teach our classes and go home.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,380 ✭✭✭sitstill


    fall wrote: »
    Teachers reported back to our school today from TUI meeting last night. They were told the proposals are:
    Last payment of s and s will be march
    S and s will become compulsory for all teachers without pay, so all teachers will be doing an hours free substitution every week
    A and b posts will be scrapped for good.
    Current A post teachers will be in the classroom 22 hours
    They were unclear if this means that teachers currently being paid for these posts will be stripped off their allowances.
    There was also a mention of cuts for those earning over €60,000.

    Will every teacher have to work the extra hour doing supervision? For example, it would be very unfair on part time teachers who only work a few hours a week.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,596 ✭✭✭✭TheDriver


    I would assume part time teachers would be on pro rata. I can see this full of issues where no one is available first in morning and last in evening but loads at 12 on a Wed etc. However it seems a likely way forward. I don't see any change this school year because agreement and a ballot will take a few months.

    Regarding allocation, you get allocated x WTE. If you have an A post retire, your allocation remains the same however if that A post isn't replaced, then the 18 hour teacher is replaced by a 22 hour teacher so school does gain however the loss in a middle manager is a far greater loss for the school. You can also see no one willing to be year heads or doing other duties and the DP being over worked with discipline issues throughout the school. I also don't see how getting A posts to 22 hours will help because our allocations will be the same and it only affects a very small number of people.

    I am curious how they will sort out the people who have paid pension on their S&S. I know the pensions board treat our payments as subscription as opposed to paying into a fund however we have paid 11-13 years of this scheme so it should be of some advantage to us since it started back in 2000s.

    Cutting the over 60k won't get a lot of support because theres a lot of teachers on this, anyone with 20 years upwards (remember its the gross figure....). I thought they would go for the 100k upwards because its a much smaller cohort but easier to push through.

    I'm wondering FALL is TUI meeting had bit too much speculation because theres a lot of talk out there however my own sources seem to have the S&S and extra hour as the only things on the cards at moment.

    P.S. Did the GAA think their national pride stadium name would be taken with such disgust over the past few years, Croke Park is a horrible word for any of us to hear any more....... Theres no delight when staff talk about going to Croke Park now


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,359 ✭✭✭whiteandlight


    I cannot believe they would just scrap the middle management roles-can you imagine the furore if any other profession had all middle management roles removed except for two staff members? The HSE? Even the guards have middle management. It's insanity. Who would take on year head now? It's an enormous amount of work for no pay and on top of 22hours??


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,596 ✭✭✭✭TheDriver


    I think few scare tactics are on the go at moment. Release from TUI officals are stating extra hour and no more S&S at moment which will both combined give pay savings.


  • Registered Users Posts: 34 NewGrad


    Unions have been too quiet thus far. No resistance to the reduced pay and allowances for new entrants and a lack of solidarity - in particular teachers. Government will push through cuts to long term staff now as they will point to lower earning new members. :(


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,596 ✭✭✭✭TheDriver


    NewGrad wrote: »
    Unions have been too quiet thus far. No resistance to the reduced pay and allowances for new entrants and a lack of solidarity - in particular teachers. Government will push through cuts to long term staff now as they will point to lower earning new members. :(

    unfortunately you must remember that any teacher with 2-40 years service are "long term staff" regarding conditions. Remember in 2004 they brought in new pension arrangements for entrants and times were good then.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    NewGrad wrote: »
    Unions have been too quiet thus far. No resistance to the reduced pay and allowances for new entrants and a lack of solidarity - in particular teachers. Government will push through cuts to long term staff now as they will point to lower earning new members. :(

    No I don't think so. If doing away with S&S payments is on the table and doing away with A/B posts as was posted earlier and then in the end agreement is reached just to scrap S&S, then everyone will say 'thank god, they left us the posts which will allow the schools to function' when the real thing they wanted to get rid of was S&S.

    S&S probably costs far more than posts to the Dept anyway. As post holders retire they aren't being replaced (B posts aren't anyway) and A posts are at a minimum of 1 per 100 students. So they are being gradually reduced. In a school of say 30 teachers if every teacher was giving 1 hour of free S&S per week that would practically wipe out all the casual subbing hours overnight, with the main subbing coming from people out on longterm sickness/maternity leave. NQTs of course would find it even harder to pick up hours as there would be little or no subbing to be found.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,684 ✭✭✭Darwin


    Latest news is that TUI president Gerry Craughwell has been refused entry to talks this morning - I cannot say for sure by who. It is quite clear to me now that we are being sold out by the unelected officials of ICTU. Those Officials do not stand to lose one red cent if the talks result in pay and allowance cuts for TUI members and for the members of other unions. It would also appear that a deal is being rushed through in an attempt to counter any opposition to the talks that may emerge next week. I would urge any TUI members to contact their area rep for clarification on this, and also to immediately email the TUI executive committe, TUI president and general secretary demanding an immediate withdrawal from this sham. Next week will be too late.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,596 ✭✭✭✭TheDriver


    Darwin wrote: »
    Latest news is that TUI president Gerry Craughwell has been refused entry to talks this morning - I cannot say for sure by who. It is quite clear to me now that we are being sold out by the unelected officials of ICTU. Those Officials do not stand to lose one red cent if the talks result in pay and allowance cuts for TUI members and for the members of other unions. It would also appear that a deal is being rushed through in an attempt to counter any opposition to the talks that may emerge next week. I would urge any TUI members to contact their area rep for clarification on this, and also to immediately email the TUI executive committe, TUI president and general secretary demanding an immediate withdrawal from this sham. Next week will be too late.

    Remember that we must still vote on this so the option for us as members is still present.


  • Registered Users Posts: 926 ✭✭✭fall


    There is a letter on the Tui website with yesterdays date from Gerry Craughwell outlining the content of the the recent talks.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,684 ✭✭✭Darwin


    TheDriver wrote: »
    Remember that we must still vote on this so the option for us as members is still present.

    Yes, but I recall a vote where TUI rejected the first CPA. Then there was a second ballot - along the lines of how about you have another go, we don't like your first answer.


  • Registered Users Posts: 262 ✭✭Fizzical


    TheDriver wrote: »
    I think few scare tactics are on the go at moment. Release from TUI officals are stating extra hour and no more S&S at moment which will both combined give pay savings.

    Any word on what type of extra hour is in question? For planning or for teaching? Lots of self evaluation and self assessment coming up. That wouldn't save money, just allow govt programmes to be carried out.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,428 ✭✭✭Powerhouse


    Any word on what type of extra hour is in question?

    I may be completely wrong and informaton is too piecemeal and speculative to make any real sense but I assume the 'extra hour' is the S&S people will do from now on. In other words it will now be compulsory (and unpaid) rather than optional (and paid). Since it has been optional up to now it is by definition 'extra' time if compulsory, so I assume that this is the extra hour in question.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1 Twobadeyes


    Is anybody else sick of the TUI's attitude to teachers with under 25 years service? For the last year or so I have been trying to gather the courage to resign my membership, but there are some very, ahem, *strong* personalities in our branch, and I am actually scared that they will find a way to make life hard for me if I do. (This is not just my imagination, there has been real malice there in the past.)
    I would rather save the money the TUI is costing me, add it to my other savings, and use it as a safety net if it all goes tits up. Am I the only one who is utterly disillusioned with them? Anybody else thinking of leaving?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,976 ✭✭✭doc_17


    Powerhouse wrote: »
    Any word on what type of extra hour is in question?

    I may be completely wrong and informaton is too piecemeal and speculative to make any real sense but I assume the 'extra hour' is the S&S people will do from now on. In other words it will now be compulsory (and unpaid) rather than optional (and paid). Since it has been optional up to now it is by definition 'extra' time if compulsory, so I assume that this is the extra hour in question.

    If the education sector has to make a contribution of 350mil and S&S is worth 125mil per year and this agreement is to 2016 then isn't that the ball game?

    Or do they want the pay & pensions bill to be 1 billion lower in 2016? Which would also mean they might freeze increments to achieve this?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,976 ✭✭✭doc_17


    Twobadeyes wrote: »
    Is anybody else sick of the TUI's attitude to teachers with under 25 years service? For the last year or so I have been trying to gather the courage to resign my membership, but there are some very, ahem, *strong* personalities in our branch, and I am actually scared that they will find a way to make life hard for me if I do. (This is not just my imagination, there has been real malice there in the past.)
    I would rather save the money the TUI is costing me, add it to my other savings, and use it as a safety net if it all goes tits up. Am I the only one who is utterly disillusioned with them? Anybody else thinking of leaving?

    If it wasn't for unions you would probably be working every hour God sent and teaching 35 kids in every class.

    Yes they have their faults at times but it's like old age, a real bummer, until you consider the alternative.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 616 ✭✭✭linguist


    I think everyone seems resigned to S&S being scrapped and that's the way it's likely to be. However, I would be stunned if this was done mid-year. It would seem to be a breach of contract, particularly for non-permanent teachers. Also, the February/March payment has only ever amounted to an advance. It was never payment in full for hours worked to that point. The education system works per academic year. I would imagine that any changes will begin to take effect in September.

    I definitely think there's something in the argument that S&S is pensionable and therefore part of core pay for those who have signed up. I'm not sufficiently expert on the legalities, but I would hope that someone would have the guts to take a case or look for compensation. There would appear to be an argument for a 'buy out' based on lost pension benefits at least.

    Regarding the A posts, that would be a shock - no question about it. I'm inclined to agree that this sounds like a scare tactic. Remember that there has been limited alleviation for posts lost and secondly I don't think this process is about cutting jobs. If anything, there is a superficial desire to see senior people take some of the pain that the new entrants have taken. Personally though, I despise this squalid race to the bottom and the manner in which we seem to be sleepwalking into it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    linguist wrote: »
    I think everyone seems resigned to S&S being scrapped and that's the way it's likely to be. However, I would be stunned if this was done mid-year. It would seem to be a breach of contract, particularly for non-permanent teachers. Also, the February/March payment has only ever amounted to an advance. It was never payment in full for hours worked to that point. The education system works per academic year. I would imagine that any changes will begin to take effect in September.


    These negotiations are for Croke Park 2 which is 2014-2016, they are not part of the original agreement so I can't see how it would affect this academic year.


    linguist wrote: »
    I definitely think there's something in the argument that S&S is pensionable and therefore part of core pay for those who have signed up. I'm not sufficiently expert on the legalities, but I would hope that someone would have the guts to take a case or look for compensation. There would appear to be an argument for a 'buy out' based on lost pension benefits at least.

    Regarding the A posts, that would be a shock - no question about it. I'm inclined to agree that this sounds like a scare tactic. Remember that there has been limited alleviation for posts lost and secondly I don't think this process is about cutting jobs. If anything, there is a superficial desire to see senior people take some of the pain that the new entrants have taken. Personally though, I despise this squalid race to the bottom and the manner in which we seem to be sleepwalking into it.

    S&S is pensionable but only for those who sign up to it, it is not part of core pay in my opinion. It's not like the degree/dip allowance which is available to everyone that holds the qualifications. There was no obligation to sign up, and what does 'pensionable' mean anyway? Our wage (those pre-2010, old pay scale etc) receive a pension based on their final wage salary when they retire.

    So I can do my 35-40 years and retire on top of the scale + Special Duties post etc, and get my pension, or I can do S&S for the next 30 years so my final salary will be approximately 1k higher finishing. Assuming I do 40 years and we get half of our final salary as a pension, the S&S in 30 years time would be worth 500 extra a year on the pension. When I realised I'd have to do 30 years of S&S for that I said fcuk it, it's not worth the hassle. If I'm that badly stuck for 500 a year when I'm 65 I'll have far bigger problems to think about. I did it for 6 or 7 years and then I bailed out about 2 years ago and I can't say I miss it.


    If I'm badly stuck in retirement 15-20 1 hour grinds would see me right for €500 a year, far easier than 37 hours a year of freezing my arse off on outdoor lunchtime duty in the middle of winter for the next 30 years.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 616 ✭✭✭linguist


    Sorry to disagree with the first part of your answer rainbowtrout, but this is about an extension to the Croke Park agreement and the Government has made it clear that it wants the savings flowing asap. In practice, they want savings from this summer.

    So anything that simply involves money will come in as quickly as they can arrange it. That would include S&S. Assuming it's going, it will be scrapped at the end of the current school year.

    Anything more complex that could impinge on teacher allocations, redeployment etc would almost certainly not come in so soon as those processes are well in train already. To be honest, I really don't expect anything in this deal that would amount to fewer jobs in schools than envisaged in the budget. There is every chance that the distance a person can be redeployed will be increased, but given the timescale required for the unions to consider a deal and for a ballot to be held, plus the sequencing of its implementation by the Implementation Body, all I realistically see coming in by September is the scrapping of S&S.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    linguist wrote: »
    Sorry to disagree with the first part of your answer rainbowtrout, but this is about an extension to the Croke Park agreement and the Government has made it clear that it wants the savings flowing asap. In practice, they want savings from this summer.

    So anything that simply involves money will come in as quickly as they can arrange it. That would include S&S. Assuming it's going, it will be scrapped at the end of the current school year.

    Anything more complex that could impinge on teacher allocations, redeployment etc would almost certainly not come in so soon as those processes are well in train already. To be honest, I really don't expect anything in this deal that would amount to fewer jobs in schools than envisaged in the budget. There is every chance that the distance a person can be redeployed will be increased, but given the timescale required for the unions to consider a deal and for a ballot to be held, plus the sequencing of its implementation by the Implementation Body, all I realistically see coming in by September is the scrapping of S&S.



    Ya I agree with you, I just didn't phrase it very well, I don't expect S&S to be cut in the middle of this academic year, and as the original CP agreement has agreed not to touch core pay, S&S could be wiped out as it wouldn't be seen as core pay. It's not part of the contract you sign up for when you start teaching in a school. Core pay covers what you are entitled to for the hours you teach.

    We got the notices about voluntary redeployment a few weeks ago, I think it said on the form 'you can be redeployed within 50km of school or home address (teacher's choice)' but it also gave a space where a preferred area could be listed ...giving leeway for redeployment further away, if it suited the teacher of course. I know one of the teachers in my school wants to move closer to their home area which is well outside the 50km radius.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 616 ✭✭✭linguist


    Totally off topic this rainbowtrout, but may I ask in general what part of the country you're in?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    linguist wrote: »
    Totally off topic this rainbowtrout, but may I ask in general what part of the country you're in?

    North West. We were told that there is a 10 teacher surplus in Sligo schools that need to be redeployed in the North West/West region which covers my area.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,596 ✭✭✭✭TheDriver


    I don't see how they can stop S&S before the end of the academic year because some people would have their 37 hours already completed so what do you tell them? There would be mayhem, some people have hours complete, some have hours to complete and its difficult changing schedules mid year, especially as some have never done S&S. Also the ballot must take place so we won't see any change until May anyways.

    I think other things like A posts are only scare tactics because schools can't work without middle management.

    I also really want to see how they take account of the pension contributions you make due to the S&S scheme. Say you were a deputy who went back teaching, then its your choice to give up the allowance and ultimately loose pension contributions. However if you knowingly made them based on good faith that this was to continue until retirement, then the DESk would need to honour pensionability I would think as the Pensions board would have great fun looking into all this!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,976 ✭✭✭doc_17


    And there it is.....Freeze on Increments was tabled this afternoon. For everyone, at all levels.

    Surely the unions will have a big decision to make now? Stay in or leave.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,596 ✭✭✭✭TheDriver


    no surprise. Its interesting hear Govt on radio at lunch how they are forced into getting this contribution from us! Bulls**t!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,976 ✭✭✭doc_17


    Again this is a cut that discriminates against the younger workers in the teaching profession


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 525 ✭✭✭vamos!


    If one was on Scale 4 of old system now... 34k gross on full hours (mythical creatures that they are). Stay at this for 20 years? No chance! Teachers who genuinely love their job and work hard will have no option but to look elsewhere. Cue 'teacher shortage' crisis in years to come as those with the points for the courses will be heading towards industries that reward qualifications and experience.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,263 ✭✭✭deiseindublin


    Freezing of increments would be a right balls, especially for those near the end of the scale.

    Wonder when they're suggesting this starts?
    Or for how long they'd be frozen? :confused:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,976 ✭✭✭doc_17


    Freezing of increments would be a right balls, especially for those near the end of the scale.

    Wonder when they're suggesting this starts?
    Or for how long they'd be frozen? :confused:


    When you say "end of the scale" do you mean points 3,4,5?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,596 ✭✭✭✭TheDriver


    sounds like the govt is putting anything it can think of on the table..........


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,263 ✭✭✭deiseindublin


    Sorry, I meant those just starting out in teaching or those with <10 years service anyway.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭happywithlife


    Have been reading this with interest. Just wanted to agree with vamos
    I can't see many highly qualified dedicated graduates opting for a profession, whose pay if frozen indefinitely. :-(


  • Registered Users Posts: 926 ✭✭✭fall


    Pay freeze for three years, two hours extra a week and no s and s payment is the most recent update


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,263 ✭✭✭deiseindublin


    2h 15m extra per week according to news but I presume 1 hour of this would be for S&S and rest for class contact?

    3 year pay freeze is a LONG time and yet again it won't effect top of scale.


  • Registered Users Posts: 926 ✭✭✭fall


    They have suggested a step back for those at the top of the scale. I wonder is that two hours inclusive of the current Croke park hours.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 48,256 ✭✭✭✭km79


    The way I see it one of 2 things is happening .....
    1. The govt is throwing out proposals that they know will not be accepted which will leave them free to bring in a unilateral pay cut
    2. The deal had already been agrees more or less and both sides are shaping it in the media so they can claim a "victory"

    I think 2 is more likely but either way I'm leaving the union when it's all sorted. If there is a vote ill vote then leave . If the talks collapse and a pay cut is proposed I'd be more likely to stay as at least I'd know the unions were actually actively fighting for a good deal and not just posturing in the media


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,596 ✭✭✭✭TheDriver


    I am wondering where the hell we can fit 1 hour 15 mins into the teaching week along with 1 hour s&s, it will be a nightmare to timetable because it leaves a lot less flexibility.
    how does it affect Primary because you need to keep kids in longer for them to do extra hours?

    It is starting to seem like
    a) the end result is a nice place that we will be happy with e.g. 1 hour extra and no S&S or
    b) awful conditions that people will realise that a straight forward pay cut and no more croke park hours etc hence a vote against the agreement.

    Also remember that we are not the only union/profession involved and nurses/gardai/civil servants etc all have axes to grind.....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,359 ✭✭✭whiteandlight


    This is insanity. I know that if I have to teach another 2hrs15 a week I will burn out within the next couple of years. This is not feasible, 2.25hrs extra a week is 80 odd extra hours per year when we already have one of the highest class contact hours in Europe. I don't know where I would find the time to prepare, teach and correct another class group (which is what it would mean for the core subjects).

    The only thing I can come up with is that they are trying to force us to strike?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 616 ✭✭✭linguist


    JOINT STATEMENT ON ASTI AND TUI WEBSITES

    The Teacher unions met this evening at the conclusion of today’s talks and issued the following infomation to members.

    The Government plans on pay, increments, supervision and substitution and hours remain under discussion. Talks on all these matters will continue into Sunday 24th of February and beyond. The Labour Relations Commission has tabled a paper in respect of increasing the working hours of all public servants by a number of hours per week. For teachers, the increase proposed is solely in respect of increasing the supervision and substitution liability.

    The Government side has indicated its intention to freeze increments. Teacher unions were vehement in their opposition to this suggestion.

    Proposals to cut higher pay have been signalled.

    A proposal has been made to extend redeployment limits to 80 km.

    No outcome has been reached on these issues and talks are on-going under the auspices of the LRC.

    There is as of now no definite outcome in respect of any of these issues.

    Any outcomes will be brought to ASTI Standing Committee, and will not be accepted without a ballot of members.

    Further updates will be posted as soon as possible.


    Ok, so let's just deal in facts rather than fears. They are not proposing an increase in timetabled teaching hours. No impact on teacher allocations etc as I predicted yesterday. Bear in mind that under current S&S arrangements, you make yourself available for three class periods per week but can be called for one, unless you volunteer to do 49 hours as opposed to the standard 37. This may not change hugely. If your S&S periods are on Monday, Tuesday and Friday and you are not needed on the first two days, you would have been in your classroom or the staffroom anyway available for work.

    Secondly, there have been suggestions from reputable reporters (Ingrid Miley for one) that non-permanent or part-time teachers will still be paid for their contribution.

    For me the single biggest issue is the three year freeze on increments. At this point, I simply cannot see myself voting for that. A recent survey indicated that about half of private sector employers will be paying wage increases this year. There is no way that I can commit myself to standing still for three years given the increases in mortgage interest rates etc...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,359 ✭✭✭whiteandlight


    Thanks for the update. However I would still be concerned about the increase in s and s and its impact on preparation hours. In my school if you cover a class you are expected to teach it, it's not supervision really at all. There is no mention of how much of an increase is being tabled either.


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