Is it Time for the tui &co to step up?

Powerhouse

Musicmental85 wrote: »

Thanks for the update. However I would still be concerned about the increase in s and s and its impact on preparation hours. In my school if you cover a class you are expected to teach it, it's not supervision really at all. There is no mention of how much of an increase is being tabled either.

This doesn't seem very practical if you have the Tech Graphics teacher supervising an Irish class or vice versa.

Powerhouse

km79 wrote: »

The way I see it one of 2 things is happening .....
1. The govt is throwing out proposals that they know will not be accepted which will leave them free to bring in a unilateral pay cut
2. The deal had already been agrees more or less and both sides are shaping it in the media so they can claim a "victory"

I think 2 is more likely but either way I'm leaving the union when it's all sorted. If there is a vote ill vote then leave . If the talks collapse and a pay cut is proposed I'd be more likely to stay as at least I'd know the unions were actually actively fighting for a good deal and not just posturing in the media

Maybe there's a third possibility - that the two sides are in there actually genuinely negotiating a deal?

Your attitude to union membership is strange. You seem to see more point in being a member if they refuse to negotiate and let the government do as it wishes because for some reason you think this proves they are 'fighting'. Surely not getting involved in negotiations and displaying utter intransigence defeats the whole point of a union?

whiteandlight

It works within reason. Staff are expected to leave work if they are out. So even if I don't know anything about tech graph the book will be there with the work left. Most of us can figure out the basics in a subject. If someone is too sick to provide work then we try and work on in the book, or teach them something-even in our own subject before the last resort of a study class

The only subject I genuinely wouldn't have a clue in would be chemistry/biology and some of the practical stuff in our school-metalwork etc

Powerhouse

Musicmental85 wrote: »

It works within reason. Staff are expected to leave work if they are out. So even if I don't know anything about tech graph the book will be there with the work left. Most of us can figure out the basics in a subject. If someone is too sick to provide work then we try and work on in the book, or teach them something-even in our own subject before the last resort of a study class

The only subject I genuinely wouldn't have a clue in would be chemistry/biology and some of the practical stuff in our school-metalwork etc

I think in any school there would be an expectation that in an ideal situation there will be work left if a teacher is absent.

Fair play to any teacher that feels comfortable teaching outside their own subject area. There are many subjects in which I'd struggle and where the students would be better off without my 'teaching'!

fall

In my school most of the new teachers have not even joined the union. We nearly have one third of the staff not in a union. I think the existence of different unions weakens our case. There should be one union only for second level. I feel the TUI fight is too diluted as they are representing so many different groups. The ASTI and the TUI are often not on the same page.
I

km79

Powerhouse wrote: »

Maybe there's a third possibility - that the two sides are in there actually genuinely negotiating a deal?

Your attitude to union membership is strange. You seem to see more point in being a member if they refuse to negotiate and let the government do as it wishes because for some reason you think this proves they are 'fighting'. Surely not getting involved in negotiations and displaying utter intransigence defeats the whole point of a union?

As long as they are actually actively negotiating and the whole thing is not a charade with the deal already having being agreed .....we will never know I suppose. I am suspicious by nature

TheDriver

Powerhouse wrote: »

Fair play to any teacher that feels comfortable teaching outside their own subject area.

The list of subjects I have taught is scary or at least chanced my arm when i couldn't get a sub and parents were ringing so as management I had to try something!
My fav was chancing my arm with Home Ec, worst must have been art, can't draw for s**t myself and painting the room is about all I could do. Fun none the less though.

I think these talks might come to a pleasant end because we won't vote yes!

mick kk

I have some concerns about those that are representing us today at the LRC. The guys at the top of some other unions all seem to be very well spoken, highly trained and great talkers and negotiators. They often come across very well in the media and seem fully prepared for any questions thrown at them. I am thinking of the likes of Liam Doran for example.

Our guys seem to have simply left the classroom and become union chiefs. They often sound like they are talking to a class of children when doing media interviews and come across very weak. I remember one guy a few years ago - Matt Cooper I think it was, said to him that out of 365 days in a year, teachers only work 167 days. His reply was that he had been an English teacher, and correcting essays is very hard work. Useless. It sounded like in a full year we are off half the time - he didn't even reply that 104 days of the year are Saturdays and Sundays.

There was another one a few years ago and anytime he was challanged his reply was "we cannot jeopardise our children's future". He said this everytime he as was challanged in several invterviews over the space of a week. Terrible.

RealJohn

Powerhouse wrote: »

I think in any school there would be an expectation that in an ideal situation there will be work left if a teacher is absent.

Fair play to any teacher that feels comfortable teaching outside their own subject area. There are many subjects in which I'd struggle and where the students would be better off without my 'teaching'!

I agree with this. Nine times out of ten, I'd rather the teacher left supervising my class just made sure as best they could that the students are working on what I've left as best they can and not to offer any "help" unless they actually know what they're doing. I'd rather they did nothing than have to spend a class unteaching what they'd been shown in my absence.

Getting off topic though.

Delphi91

Powerhouse wrote: »

I think in any school there would be an expectation that in an ideal situation there will be work left if a teacher is absent.

When I have advance warning of teachers being absent (inservice, etc), I insist that they leave work for eachy and every class that they have. Obviously if a teacher rings in sick that is not possible but I have an excellent set of part-time teachers who will cover those classes for me and in most cases they will make an attempt to teach the class. It may not be the subject they're covering for, but they can teach their own subjects.

Any school manager will tell you, there are less likely to be instances of indiscipline in a supervised class where there is work being done.

linguist

It's now being reported on RTE Online that the Irish Medical Organisation and Irish Nurses and Midwives Organisation have walked out of the talks. RTE say they understand that two other unions will walk out shortly.

TheDriver

If the INMO walk out, then people will listen. Lots of unions aren't really taken note of by the general public but everyone seems to take note of the nurses and no one ever seems to say that nurses have it easy

doc_17

Unite gone now as well. CPSU, INMO and IMO too. Things are unravelling very quickly.

chases0102

Quick question that someone might be able to help me with....

I've been in a school since September on a casual part time basis. I've been doing S&S since September - is there a possibility I might not get paid for this?

Has the principal been playing me for a fool sending me on for this?

History Queen

I'm subbing at the moment (my first teaching position) on Maternity Cover. I am not a member of either teaching union and cannot decide with all the uncertainty at the moment whether I should join a union now while talks are still ongoing.

I had sort of made a decision not to join the union as I felt that they had abandoned NQTs and had little or no interest in fighting for us. ( I am open to correction on this point but it is the impression I get).

Anyway, now with the talks going on I am wondering if my decision has been incorrect. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

whiteandlight

Chases0102 it is very unlikely that you will not get paid for this year as that would be retrospective pay cutting. However its very likely from next september that this work will be compulsory and unpaid.

History Queen we cannot give you much advise on joining a union, it is your own decision. In my case I joined because if I was accused of something in school they will give me legal advice. I will likely need them to help me secure my CID. Finally if the croke park deal fell apart I did not want to be crossing picket lines.

chases0102

Thanks musicmental85.

Hard to keep track of all this!

whiteandlight

Things are changing rapidly but while they may force a pay cut instead it is still unlikely that they will refuse to pay us for work already done. I have no legal qualification but it seems that it would be illegal!

History Queen

Thanks MusicMental, and if I'm completely honest it is the idea of crossing picket lines that is making me reconsider my position.

Delphi91

chases0102 wrote: »

Quick question that someone might be able to help me with....

I've been in a school since September on a casual part time basis. I've been doing S&S since September - is there a possibility I might not get paid for this?

Has the principal been playing me for a fool sending me on for this?

I've just submitted sheets to my VEC signed by all teachers who have signed up for S&S (permenent and part-time) and was told it was due to be paid on the next payroll date.

doc_17

If this falls apart and TUI leave negotiations and the government legislates for pay cuts then at least we won't have to do those dumb ass Croke Park hours anymore

whiteandlight

I think the croke park hours were actually the "straw that broke the camels back" for many teachers. It was a purely vindictive, pen pushing, "look what we did" exercise for the government. There is massive resentment among teachers for these hours. I am sick to the teeth of missing maths club and music classes after school to go and sit in meetings instead

km79

doc_17 wrote: »

If this falls apart and TUI leave negotiations and the government legislates for pay cuts then at least we won't have to do those dumb ass Croke Park hours anymore

I've been wondering about that ....so if no new deal and a pay cut all those after school meetings and early August days are gone ?

whiteandlight

A poster over in the economy forum reminded us that croke park 1 is still running. If the government introduce pay cuts now then that agreement is null and void so yes we could feasibly stop doing those hours.

km79

Musicmental85 wrote: »

A poster over in the economy forum reminded us that croke park 1 is still running. If the government introduce pay cuts now then that agreement is null and void so yes we could feasibly stop doing those hours.

But those pay cuts won't come into efffect till 2014 ?

doc_17

No the pay cuts will be introduced this year as the government have said that want 300mill of the proposed 1bil to come this year.

Si if they reneg on their end and cut pay before 2014 then the deal is off. No more CP hours. You're bought for as long as you're bought

History Queen

Any word at all from either of the
teacher unions???

whiteandlight

nothing since yesterday on the TUI website anyways

km79

doc_17 wrote: »

No the pay cuts will be introduced this year as the government have said that want 300mill of the proposed 1bil to come this year.

Si if they reneg on their end and cut pay before 2014 then the deal is off. No more CP hours. You're bought for as long as you're bought

Are those hours only due to ruin till 2014 ? So if no new deal is agreed and a put cut come into effect from 2014 those hours are gone ?

doc_17

That would be my reading of it and I was confirmed to me by a union executive member at one of our meetings a few months back

doc_17

Anyone know what's in this deal that us said to be imminent?

TheDriver

no idea, maybe the 4 unions walking out made the Govt cop on?

Whats in the back of my mind was the fact that FG has never liked the CP agreement and hence were they gunning from the outset to screw us over???

doc_17

Heard some rumour about a phased freezing of increments, whatever that might mean.

Could be leaving those on a lower point alone, middle being froze for a year and top being frozen for 3? Probably no point speculating too much. The detail will out soon enough

TheDriver

You seem to have good sources doc_17, thanks for the leaks. Heres hoping its something thats workable....

lennyloulou

I think it is a crime that we are paying into our unions and there is no talk/representative from them giving our viewpoint to the media/tv/feedback to us - talking to colleagues over the weekend- general feeling of being p****d off with our well paid fat union cats

doc_17

lennyloulou wrote: »

I think it is a crime that we are paying into our unions and there is no talk/representative from them giving our viewpoint to the media/tv/feedback to us - talking to colleagues over the weekend- general feeling of being p****d off with our well paid fat union cats

At our recent Unuon meeting we had the President of the union there and we made it clear to him what our viewpoint was. That is the place to do it

trihead

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2013/0225/breaking2.html

Agreement reached this morning but still waiting on all details for education.

Some details:


- Pay cuts of 5.5 per cent will be introduced for staff earning over €65,000. The scale of pay cuts will be increased on a gradual basis, with those earning over €185,000 facing a 10 per cent reduction.

- Staff earning more than €65,000 face a three-year freeze on increments, while those earning up to €35,000 will have a three-month freeze. Those earning between €35,000 and €65,000 will face two three-month freezes in the course of the agreement, which runs until 2016. Staff at the top of their incremental pay scale will be asked to contribute either six days annual leave, the cash value of these holidays or the cash value of one increment on their scale.

TheDriver

wonder is that a cut for only the amount over 65k or all the salary? Wonder how it also works for people on say 64k who then get an increment and bring themselves above the 65k mark?
Is this core pay or everything with it? What if you get 65k based on all your addons and S&S up to July? Lots of Questions! Seems strange to cut someones allowances if thats over 65k where someone lower down the scale wouldn't and payroll would have an awful time in years to come with different rates. Strikes me that they will look at the basic incremental scale and cut it accordingly to ensure its all straightforward for years to come....

km79

TheDriver wrote: »

wonder is that a cut for only the amount over 65k or all the salary? Wonder how it also works for people on say 64k who then get an increment and bring themselves above the 65k mark?
Is this core pay or everything with it? What if you get 65k based on all your addons and S&S up to July? Lots of Questions! Seems strange to cut someones allowances if thats over 65k where someone lower down the scale wouldn't and payroll would have an awful time in years to come with different rates. Strikes me that they will look at the basic incremental scale and cut it accordingly to ensure its all straightforward for years to come....

Generally these pay cuts apply to the portion of wages over the threshold .
Has anyone seen or heard anything education specific or are the talks still ongoing ?

whiteandlight

A minor gripe of mine yes, but why on earth have neither secondary teaching union reported back since Saturday? It's enormously frustrating reading news reports when our unions haven't released any statement since Saturday.

Powerhouse

Musicmental85 wrote: »

A minor gripe of mine yes, but why on earth have neither secondary teaching union reported back since Saturday? It's enormously frustrating reading news reports when our unions haven't released any statement since Saturday.

In all fairness, I am sure the unions will issue a statement when there is something concrete to say. They are a party to the negotiations and it is quite a different matter for the news people who can speculate one way and say the opposite the day after. Newspapers have to fill pages every day.

whiteandlight

But even a simple 'we are working on it' would at least explain where they are at. The into updated this morning

Journal.ie reporting s and s gone with some suggestion of possible continued payment for part time staff.

Increments for those under 35k frozen for one three month period, those between 35-65k for two three month periods and over 65k frozen for three years

Also saying that the 5% band of pension levy will be cut to 2.5%

whiteandlight

Independent reporting:

Anyone teachers hired after 2010 who were paid as much less will now be on a merged pay scale, funded by the abolition of substitution and supervision allowance. Teaching union official Shiela Nunan said this was a huge matter of concern for teachers.

What exactly does this mean? That all teachers will be moved to a reduced scale with the new teachers earning more and the rest getting a paycut? That is completely out of line with the rest of the agreement if so. And if the government out us all on the old pay scales are they not then liable for all the back pay they never gave to younger teachers?

If this is the case then it explains the delay on reporting by the teachers union-that's a tough sell however you frame it

TheDriver

http://per.gov.ie/2013/02/25/labour-relations-commission-lrc-proposals-for-public-service-agreement-briefing-note/

Holy mother of God, 5.5% of all of the 1st 80000 including allowances. I am sorry but a good number of teachers would be up at this level and I don't see them voting yes for this? At least voting no would still have the same pay cut and then no more croke park hours.
Does this not make salary scales and allowance scales all messed up?

whiteandlight

The devil is in the detail as they say-there is a lot to come out yet

trihead

Interesting the dates are in that release.... 1 July 2013 to end June 2016

Delphi91

Education details:

http://www.asti.ie/news/latest-news/news-article/article/public-sector-talks-proposals//back_to/asti-home/

whiteandlight

The government initially wanted 5 extra teaching hours a week??? Are they absolutely mental? 5*37=185hrs a year when we already teach way more than the European and OECD average. They had to have been using that as a scare tactic-teachers would burn out faster than england

That would be over 900hours a year for second level only behind the USA, Chile and Argentina.
Every other country would have been below us....

TheDriver

so someone earning 75000 drops 4125 off their salary, how the hell will that be acceptable to anyone on top of more S&S. However I cam curious about this "3 years" thing, so in 3 years time, pay will pop back up or will the next agreement conveniently have the same thing?

whiteandlight

Asti website mentions this:

Double pay cut – alleviation

The ASTI and the other teacher unions have pointed out that a number of teachers will have their pay cut and will lose their Supervision and Substitution allowance. The Government has agreed to include a mechanism whereby only one cut will apply where this arises (details to follow).