Is it Time for the tui &co to step up?

john1963

Musicmental85 wrote: »

Asti website mentions this:

Double pay cut – alleviation

The ASTI and the other teacher unions have pointed out that a number of teachers will have their pay cut and will lose their Supervision and Substitution allowance. The Government has agreed to include a mechanism whereby only one cut will apply where this arises (details to follow).

we cut our own value when we do voluntary work....time to stop

Delphi91

Curious about the following:

Public servants working less than 35 hours will move to 37 hours

Can I assume that this applies to teachers also?

whiteandlight

TheDriver wrote: »

so someone earning 75000 drops 4125 off their salary, how the hell will that be acceptable to anyone on top of more S&S. However I cam curious about this "3 years" thing, so in 3 years time, pay will pop back up or will the next agreement conveniently have the same thing?

Sorry I actually misread this. Yes I agree, the s and s seems 'generally' to be more popular among younger teachers. This will be a big change for the older section, extra s and s as well as a pay cut.

The 49 hours will work out around 2 periods a week plus a break supervision in my school I reckon

TheDriver

the 37 hour rule is difficult for teachers becuase we have prep hours etc, all other areas of public servants don't bring work home with them.
I am also curious how the Govt will look at the double cut? Sounds very mix matched for now and staff here are already saying whats good about voting yes?

john1963

Musicmental85 wrote: »

Sorry I actually misread this. Yes I agree, the s and s seems 'generally' to be more popular among younger teachers. This will be a big change for the older section, extra s and s as well as a pay cut.

The 49 hours will work out around 2 periods a week plus a break supervision in my school I reckon

you will have to be available 5 periods a week and possibly do 3 (2hrs 15)

km79

I don't know if this will be passed ......"senior" teachers face pay cuts and having to go back into doing s&s and doing it for free (most in my school opted out of it last few years). A lot will vote no.
Teachers on low hours now face the prospect of getting no subbing hours due to the s&s scheme becoming manadatory for all teachers. A lot may vote no.
I'm kind of in the middle of these 2 categories. Well under 65k. Full hours. No hope of a post. I do the s&s but i can see the reasoning behind cutting it. I and others like me are probably im undecided .....
What do ye think ?

doc_17

So why about the Croke Park hours? Do we still have to do those additional 33 hours in after school meetings? Please say no. They are totally wasted in my school with sully meetings!

implausible

john1963 wrote: »

you will have to be available 5 periods a week and possibly do 3 (2hrs 15)

I don't know about other schools, but in mine quite a few teachers don't do s/s. Forcing them into it will dramatically increase the pool of hours available. Unless they extend s/s to cover certified sick leave, I can actually see myself doing less substitution.

This is, however, going to affect part-timers, but there are limited types of absences that they can cover anyway. Where it will be felt will be in the extra supervision they do.

km79

doc_17 wrote: »

So why about the Croke Park hours? Do we still have to do those additional 33 hours in after school meetings? Please say no. They are totally wasted in my school with sully meetings!

Noone seems to know the answer to this . If they are then it will pass

sitstill

I'll be voting no to this. As a temporary part-time teacher, I depend on subbing each week to build-up my pay to an amount that I can live on. If the chances to take subbing classes are dramatically reduced, I'm not really sure what I'll do next year.

rainbowtrout

TheDriver wrote: »

so someone earning 75000 drops 4125 off their salary, how the hell will that be acceptable to anyone on top of more S&S. However I cam curious about this "3 years" thing, so in 3 years time, pay will pop back up or will the next agreement conveniently have the same thing?

A subtle way of getting people to retire. If a teacher is on top of the scale and is looking at a paycut of approximately 4K, and possibly more and only has a year or two to go to retirement then it might make more financial sense to go now than wait it out and retire on a smaller final salary which will mean a smaller pension and lump sum.

Worked example:

Teacher on 75k now, 38 years done.

Retire now on current salary 75 * 38/80ths = 35625 pension
Lump sum : 106875

Retire in 3 years time, final salary 70875
70875 *40/80 = 35,437
Lump sum = 106312

But teacher having worked an extra 3 years would have lost 12k due to pay cut and worked more hours due to S&S.



Not a huge incentive to stay on, if you are within 2 years of retirement.



Cheaper to hire NQTs on the bottom of the scale on unsecure contracts to replace them. Same as the UK.

Personally I don't think pay cuts will be reversed in three years, only the increments will be allowed again.

drvantramp

Perhaps, the penny dropped with ASTI/TUI - no future union subs forthcoming without this being adddressed. Lets wait for the detail.


New entrants' pay

As a result of Government decisions of recent years, teachers are now being paid on the basis of three different pay scales. The ASTI has strenuously objected to this divisive pay structure and insisted that the issue be dealt with at the public sector pay talks.

Following union demands, the Government has agreed to introduce measures to address this two-tier workforce problem. The ASTI and the other teacher unions have succeeded in securing a small increase in pay for new entrant teachers who began teaching in 2011 and 2012. In addition, the payment of an extra increment is being proposed at the top of the scale for teachers entering from 2012.???

These measures constitute the first steps in closing the unacceptable gap between the pay scale of new entrant teachers and existing teachers. Full details will be published when available.

noodler

drvantramp wrote: »

Perhaps, the penny dropped with ASTI/TUI - no future union subs forthcoming without this being adddressed. Lets wait for the detail.


New entrants' pay

As a result of Government decisions of recent years, teachers are now being paid on the basis of three different pay scales. The ASTI has strenuously objected to this divisive pay structure and insisted that the issue be dealt with at the public sector pay talks.

Following union demands, the Government has agreed to introduce measures to address this two-tier workforce problem. The ASTI and the other teacher unions have succeeded in securing a small increase in pay for new entrant teachers who began teaching in 2011 and 2012. In addition, the payment of an extra increment is being proposed at the top of the scale for teachers entering from 2012.???

These measures constitute the first steps in closing the unacceptable gap between the pay scale of new entrant teachers and existing teachers. Full details will be published when available.

Will this apply to other newer entrants to the PS over the last few years?

fall

sitstill wrote: »

I'll be voting no to this. As a temporary part-time teacher, I depend on subbing each week to build-up my pay to an amount that I can live on. If the chances to take subbing classes are dramatically reduced, I'm not really sure what I'll do next year.

Substitution and supervision is supposed to cover uncertified sick leave which part time teachers couldn't be paid for anyway. You should still be able to cover certified sick leave and as we now have seven uncertified days over a rolling two year period most sick leave is certified.

fall

Does anyone else think it is disgraceful that there has been no update on the TUI website. I have not heard a word about them.

deiseindublin

Yes, was just saying that here at home. It's a feckin' disgrace that they haven't even updated the site since Sat night. Paying them €400 ish a year so that I can go onto ASTI website to find out what's going on! It says a lot about TUI overall I think.

fall

I really feel they are too diluted as they are representing further ed., lecturers, prison teachers etc..

fall

They have something on their Facebook page with a link to the public expenditure site

Iused2likebusts

km79 wrote: »

I don't know if this will be passed ......"senior" teachers face pay cuts and having to go back into doing s&s and doing it for free (most in my school opted out of it last few years). A lot will vote no.
Teachers on low hours now face the prospect of getting no subbing hours due to the s&s scheme becoming manadatory for all teachers. A lot may vote no.
I'm kind of in the middle of these 2 categories. Well under 65k. Full hours. No hope of a post. I do the s&s but i can see the reasoning behind cutting it. I and others like me are probably im undecided .....
What do ye think ?

I think your spot on with your assessment there. Ill probably vote yes as if its a no vote they will change it so those over 65k dont take as much of a hit and the rest of us will probably have to take a hit. The money has to come from somewhere and S & S and those on over 65k is the fairest IMO.

deiseindublin

I wonder how long it will be before the detail is in the public eye? I'm reading so many conflicting reports that I'd hate to even look at my own scenario.

Also, I read that everybody will only get caught for one loss of income, whichever is the smallest. Does that mean that teachers can only get caught for the S&S €1500 or the 5.5%? Can't see that being the case.

TheDriver

What if you do s and s for 49 hours and over 65k, they can't leave people with s and s allowance

Trotter

A friend of mine is having a bit of a panic. Does the 5.5% on earnings between 65k and 80k include earnings below 65k?

He's on 70k but has a hefty mortgage. Will he lose 5% of 70k or 5% of 5k?

mvron

As far as I know it's 5.5% of the total. However, the new 'salary' can't dip below 65K, i.e there's a cap on the damage. That's my understanding but anyone with greater understanding please feel free to correct/clarify.

TheDriver

That is correct however if he does s and s, he won't loose both but detail to be provided yet

Trotter

He's in 3rd level so he's caught.

Seems unfair that someone on 66k drops 1k to 65k, but someone on 68k drops 3k to 65k too.

If I have my calculations right!

TheDriver

fair? thats a word not supposed to be mentioned here!

Detail is seriously required, I hope we are not asked to vote and detail will be made available afterwards.

dingding

http://www.tui.ie/news-events/public-service-talks-outcome.2860.html

Darwin

mvron wrote: »

As far as I know it's 5.5% of the total. However, the new 'salary' can't dip below 65K, i.e there's a cap on the damage. That's my understanding but anyone with greater understanding please feel free to correct/clarify.

Well the way it is phrased sounds like its banded, why don't they just say those earning between €65K up to €80K will be deducted 5.5%? Although one always has to presume the worst. EDIT: Scratch that, it looks like you are right mvron

TheDriver

Earnings (salary inclusive of allowances) between €65,000 and €80,000 will be temporarily reduced by 5.5%. The effect of this measure, however, may not cause earnings to fall below €65,000 (i.e. a floor of €65,00 will apply)

TUI has said the above which is totally different to ASTI line that all pay up to 80000 will be cut by 5.5%. This needs clarification.

Also the line about the pay cut being reduced by S&S loss, does this apply to 49 hour people also??

chases0102

Would now be a good time to join a union?

I am on part-time casual hours....i.e., have no contract but have been getting at least 13.5 hours a week since the second week of school, and have been told that I'll be here until the end of the school year.

It's just this morning, our union rep began handing out union application forms to staff members who aren't part of the union, saying, and I quote, 'you should join before the **** hits the fan!'

He totally ignored me when handing out these application forms, purely, I think, because I don't have a contract.

So should I join a union?

TheDriver

some people would say everyone should be in a union, some people think its a waste.
Personally, I would say be in the union because the protection is there is any accusation is made, bullying occurs, incidents happen and your hung out to dry etc etc

Lord TSC

So looking at the above from the view of a part timer...am I right in saying that the pro is there's a slight pay increase, but the payoff is a drastic reduction in the number of potential hours a new teacher can expect?

With more teachers being forced to do sub work, it cuts down on the general number of hours available in sub work, which was the primary entry route for new teachers over the last few years and a key component of the wages of part time teachers who used them to build up their hours. On top of that, if all teachers are going to be working extra hours, they'll be needing to take extra classes which will again likely come from the hours of the part time teachers, once again reducing the hours that NQTs desperately sought out?

In other words, do these changes not make it even harder for new teachers starting out and those who qualified in the last two or three years? Or am I reading things wrong from the TUI website?

TheDriver

yes. The budget we would use for uncertified leave will be gone because there will now be a pool of hours for in school use. I also don't like the phrase about 1st day of certain types of certified absences? That usually gives people a lot of subbing so we might be in trouble there also............... Lot less work for subs

whiteandlight

I would be hugely concerned about the lack of substitution hours as a part time teacher. I'm currently on full hours but may not be next year and I have lived on them in previous years

TheDriver

e.g. would be roughly 100000 (yes, one hundred thousand) hours alloacted for uncertified leave and school business would now be gone over the course of a year. In theory thats 137 full time jobs for full school year, subbing wise.

Juniorhurler

Do the original 33 cp hours still apply or are they gone?

Juniorhurler

Oh and one more question, what happens to the pension deduction from my s&s for the last number of years?

TheDriver

I would think the 33 hours will remain as this is merely an extension of the current deal.
Pensionability: Still to be addressed, pensions board might like to hear about this....

Juniorhurler

TheDriver wrote: »

I would think the 33 hours will remain as this is merely an extension of the current deal.
Pensionability: Still to be addressed, pensions board might like to hear about this....

If those sham 33 hrs still exist I will vote no so, regardless of the ramifications. I hate every one of those pointless, bureaucratic, pen pushing, time wasting exercises.

doc_17

TheDriver wrote: »

I would think the 33 hours will remain as this is merely an extension of the current deal.
Pensionability: Still to be addressed, pensions board might like to hear about this....

I would think they should be gone to be honest. This is a new deal.

Benicetomonty

doc_17 wrote: »

I would think they should be gone to be honest. This is a new deal.

I doubt they're gone tbh, the union surely would've mentioned it by now. Pay cut/ increments freeze would be a lot easier to stomach if CP hours were abolished.

km79

Benicetomonty wrote: »

I doubt they're gone tbh, the union surely would've mentioned it by now. Pay cut/ increments freeze would be a lot easier to stomach if CP hours were abolished.

If they were to go it would be almost certain to be passed....

implausible

Benicetomonty wrote: »

Pay cut/ increments freeze would be a lot easier to stomach if CP hours were abolished.

Or if the way they're used was changed. CP was intended to help planning etc. However, since it began, I cannot say that as a department, we have had a single extra planning meeting. Everyone doing the hours at once means you can't get all the people together at a suitable time. Our staff meetings seem to have reduced as well, squashed in between 'planning meetings' and CPD, which often does not apply to the whole staff.

Chris68

Does anyone know how the compulsory s&s would work for part-time secondary teachers? For example, if I had a fixed-term contract for say for 3 hours a week would I still be expected to do S&S for 2.25 hours? Or would the S&S be pro-rata? (3/22)x2.25=18 minutes?

TheDriver

http://www.tui.ie/_fileupload/Image/Roisin/LRC%20Proposals%20Final%20Feb%2026%202013.pdf

don't see anything about the double cuts thingy.
I would think everything is pro rata

drvantramp

http://www.lrc.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/2013/LRC Proposals _FINAL.pdf

still vague on new entrants

deiseindublin

Just went through LRC doc there now and can't find where it's either one loss or another? I thought I read that if people were caught for the €1.5k loss of S&S then they would lose the 5.5% less the S&S payment.

(Not explaining myself very well Am square eyed from looking at it).

TheDriver

i cna't find it either however various teacher union websites all state it.
I also can't find that after 3 years, money goes back (in theory)

whiteandlight

I'm on page 12 and my head hurts.

So far it seems we agree to continue to be bound by croke park 1 (1.9 and 1.10) so the 33 hours are still there.

A lot of things appear to be unfinalised

2.11 allows the government to cut more staff if they see fit
2.28 details and circulars to follow
2.29 we agree to enter talks on pension issues and be bound by the conclusion
2.30 travel and subsistence to be revised. We agree to be bound by the revision
2.33 revised salary scales will be prepared. I cannot understand this one

2.33 New Entrant Salary Scales: In order to address the imbalance between those who entered the public service since 2011 and those who entered before that date, revised incremental salary scales shall be prepared for same grade entrants to each public service sector as necessary to incorporate the revision of salary scales introduced by Decision of Government in January 2011.

Do they mean to change all current staff both pre and post January 2011?

whiteandlight

Anyone know if work sharing is the same as job sharing?