Is it Time for the tui &co to step up?

TheDriver

For 2.33, it says its for same grade entrants so again, only new people?
2.29, thats things like the S&S pensionability I would think.
2.28, sounds like pay cuts will put someone on an out of list scale to avoid people taking them to court in future for different allowances for same job between teachers.

Still not liking that the double cut clause is nowhere to be seen..........maybe it isn't in there so that its a coup for us......

Powerhouse

Juniorhurler wrote: »

If those sham 33 hrs still exist I will vote no so, regardless of the ramifications. I hate every one of those pointless, bureaucratic, pen pushing, time wasting exercises.

It utterly does my head in too. I had to give up my only free class of the day to do a subject meeting yesterday to make arrangements for Seachtain na Gaeilge. Mock Orals and some other stuff in the school, while just last week I has to sit in a meeting of no relevance to me for an hour and half just to be seen to be there. Like every other teacher I do the 33 hours and then some outside the classroom anyway. Usually I give a bit of a spiel at our awards night towards the end of the year before one of the awards is given but am considering not going at all this year as I am sick of giving up so much free time and then having to do an extra 33 hours. Not sure I want to give up more. Am also strongly considering pulling out of the sports side of things next year too for much the same reason.

lennyloulou

the general feeling in our staff roomat mini break- doom and gloom. no pay for S&S has upset so many with families who totally depend on this payment. my colleague with 3 kids, told me himself and the wife are going to sit down , make a list of what they can cut over the summer and in general expenditure.i suppose this in turn will effect shops, cafes etc
Most of my colleagues are young, with families and big mortgages,expensive childcare costs, trying to meet health / house insurance payments etc , driving long distances with massive petrol costs each week. Majority say they are going to opt out of the extra committees, volunteer work, helping out at sat enrolements- they will not put in these extra hours ,or pay for the petrol/childcare when they are expected to do extra school activites at night/sat. This could cause chaos yet!

Juniorhurler

lennyloulou wrote: »

the general feeling in our staff roomat mini break- doom and gloom. no pay for S&S has upset so many with families who totally depend on this payment. my colleague with 3 kids, told me himself and the wife are going to sit down , make a list of what they can cut over the summer and in general expenditure.i suppose this in turn will effect shops, cafes etc
Most of my colleagues are young, with families and big mortgages,expensive childcare costs, trying to meet health / house insurance payments etc , driving long distances with massive petrol costs each week. Majority say they are going to opt out of the extra committees, volunteer work, helping out at sat enrolements- they will not put in these extra hours ,or pay for the petrol/childcare when they are expected to do extra school activites at night/sat. This could cause chaos yet!

In fairness I have been doing a combination of small jobs that if all combined, would have been a B-post, for the last few years on goodwill. We all are inclined to do it as it is easier to work in a well run school.
I think it is time for us to stop this in our own interests to make up for the time the govt is taking from us and to have any hope of posts ever returning.
The unions need to offer clear directives on this though, not wishy-washy vague ones like they have been.

TheDriver

they won't make any directives as long as agreements are in place, possibly out of goodwill. However its a personal matter for each involved.

I have been reading over this more and more and I think people need to realise how much classes they will be supervising and also how anyone not on full hours will get NO MORE SUBBING, this needs to be hammered home. Day 2 of a cert onwards is serious enough stuff and not that common

Lord TSC

TheDriver wrote: »

I have been reading over this more and more and I think people need to realise how much classes they will be supervising and also how anyone not on full hours will get NO MORE SUBBING, this needs to be hammered home. Day 2 of a cert onwards is serious enough stuff and not that common

To be blunt, I don't think the Unions will care if part timers get hurt. Their M.O. over the last few months/years has been to sacrifice the part-timers in a bid to protect as much of the full-timers wage as possible. This deal strikes me as being the final nail in the coffin for new teachers, but it will likely go through anyway...

lennyloulou

general opinion in our staff room- vote no
it wil go through anyhow nationally- it will be awful for teachers hoping to get sub work or extra hours subbing in a school to make a few quid. they will not be needed. those days will be a distant memory soon.

amacca

dont suppose anyone could point me to a link of the full official text of this new croke park amendment deal that the unions will ballot their members on?


Are the LRC draft proposals all that are available to read at the moment? - they seem a bit sketchy and it looks as if some of them are not being adopted (have been changed due to negotiations)

TheDriver

Go back a page

acequion

What I find most alarming is the utter defeatism from public servants, and while I mean no disrespect to anyone, it's the same on here.Everyone seems to be assuming that it's a foregone conclusion that this deal will go through. That is the general attitude of the Irish since the start of this crisis.There is no fight in anyone.I'm not the only one saying it. Interesting articles have been written about our complacent, defeatist attitude, in marked contrast to many of our European neighbours.

What is the point in trade unionism if workers meekly accept the diktats of the employer? Three years ago when we took our first round of pay cuts we should have all mobilised and offered enormous resistance.We, as teachers, made one feeble attempt to strike and that was it. We just gave in. Now three years on, here they're back for more and if they are met with minimal resistance, of course they'll be back again.We are a very soft target.

A constant refrain in Ireland is the fatalistic,"sure what can we do?" Actually there's plenty we can do.We can email our unions to express our dissatisfaction, we can lobby our local TD's, we can vote No to these demeaning proposals which undervalue the teaching profession and the many other worthy profesions which serve the public.And if they don't accept no, then we can use the so called nuclear option and strike, which we are legally entitled to do.Will it yield results? We'll never know until we try. But,apart from the shocking reality that many in our professions are verging on poverty,on principle, we must resist this blatant breach of an industrial agreement.

Trotter

I'm utterly stuck. I can't see any reason to vote for this. Its a breach of trust given the deal my union signed up to.

On the other hand, my family can't afford a strike. Things are tight enough as it is.

TheDriver

Trotter wrote: »

On the other hand, my family can't afford a strike. Things are tight enough as it is.

can they equally afford a pay cut. Its these maths that needs to come out.

I think its a no from me too and for once in my career, I intend going to next union meeting.
I see an FAQ on asti website, fair play to them. Things like double cut, 3 years only are not on actual LRC document and this worries me....

TheDriver

acequion wrote: »

we can lobby our local TD's, .

maybe some standard letter that is suggested to union members or put here and we can all email our TDs with the same email. It might take off, our own campaign??

Juniorhurler

I remember reading somewhere that the tui has a fairly hefty strike fund built up. Am I over cynical or could the unions not want strike to preserve their funds. Maybe I am spending too much time with Jim Corr.

History Queen

acequion wrote: »

What I find most alarming is the utter defeatism from public servants, and while I mean no disrespect to anyone, it's the same on here.Everyone seems to be assuming that it's a foregone conclusion that this deal will go through. That is the general attitude of the Irish since the start of this crisis.There is no fight in anyone.I'm not the only one saying it. Interesting articles have been written about our complacent, defeatist attitude, in marked contrast to many of our European neighbours.

What is the point in trade unionism if workers meekly accept the diktats of the employer? Three years ago when we took our first round of pay cuts we should have all mobilised and offered enormous resistance.We, as teachers, made one feeble attempt to strike and that was it. We just gave in. Now three years on, here they're back for more and if they are met with minimal resistance, of course they'll be back again.We are a very soft target.

A constant refrain in Ireland is the fatalistic,"sure what can we do?" Actually there's plenty we can do.We can email our unions to express our dissatisfaction, we can lobby our local TD's, we can vote No to these demeaning proposals which undervalue the teaching profession and the many other worthy profesions which serve the public.And if they don't accept no, then we can use the so called nuclear option and strike, which we are legally entitled to do.Will it yield results? We'll never know until we try. But,apart from the shocking reality that many in our professions are verging on poverty,on principle, we must resist this blatant breach of an industrial agreement.

I agree with you completly, if we don't stand up and be counted NOTHING will change. If we DO something, things just might change.

History Queen

Trotter wrote: »

I'm utterly stuck. I can't see any reason to vote for this. Its a breach of trust given the deal my union signed up to.

On the other hand, my family can't afford a strike. Things are tight enough as it is.

I don't mean to criticise but it is going to get to the stage where people won't be able to afford NOT to strike.

By that I mean, not striking has achieved nothing so perhaps striking and showing some backbone will make the government take unions seriously. Again, I don't know your circumstances, this is just my opinion.

And just to clarify I'm not in a union myself and remain undecided on whether i should join so please take my comments with a pinch of salt.

acequion

maybe some standard letter that is suggested to union members or put here and we can all email our TDs with the same email. It might take off, our own campaign??

Well I've just mailed my TD who happens to be Labour and who I voted for.I basically expressed my sense of betrayal by Labour in government as they are supposed to represent workers.I queried the government's refusal to negotiate more time for our deficit reduction,I claimed that a wealth tax would yield 1 billion and be more equitable and then I emphasised the part which concerns me most,the huge increase in working hours, in addition to the new Junior cycle programme which will also entail an enormous workload. I used their buzzword "unsustainable":pac: by saying that the workload will be unsustainable. It's probably better for each email to be individual, it doesn't have to be very long. I also emailed my union, the ASTI.

Many people say they cannot afford to strike and I feel for them. It would certainly hurt me but having no children makes it more affordable.I feel we have to strike this time and I hope all public servants reject this deal and also strike, if necessary. Then we would have a strong hand.

whiteandlight

Can I ask is it only 2nd level teachers that have this increased S and S? Don't have the document handy and someone just asked me

TheDriver

primary have the same but I don't know how the non yard duty bit can effect them to be honest, their working day is full as it is

rational

I am assuming that those on part time contracts i.e. 16 hours will have to do 16/22 of the 49 hours and 3 instead of 5 class avalibility?

Am i right?

doc_17

Yeah it is pro rata if you are on part time hours

rational

doc_17 wrote: »

Yeah it is pro rata if you are on part time hours

I hope ASTI will make that very clear. Many part timers are doing all the 33 croke park hours.

Trotter

History Queen wrote: »

I don't mean to criticise but it is going to get to the stage where people won't be able to afford NOT to strike.

By that I mean, not striking has achieved nothing so perhaps striking and showing some backbone will make the government take unions seriously. Again, I don't know your circumstances, this is just my opinion.

And just to clarify I'm not in a union myself and remain undecided on whether i should join so please take my comments with a pinch of salt.

Backbone isn't a problem with me thanks. I have 2 babies and a mortgage to pay. If we strike, I'll lose x days wages in one go and I haven't the savings to cover that right now. If I get a paycut it'll still cause me huge problems but over a longer period.

Either option for me is unacceptable and I'm disgusted that having achieved what is supposed to be a good job that Im still working hard financially to make sure things stay on the straight and narrow.

I have backbone, but my family can't eat backbone, the bank won't accept it for the mortgage and yet Im still voting no. This problem started when my union agreed CP1.

My point is that things have been let go so bad that people like me are in a no win situation.

TheDriver

Trotter wrote: »

This problem started when my union agreed CP1.
.

I agree with you totally Trotter, we have been around these boards a long time but I think one point you made is wrong, the union didn't agree CP1, all the members did.
However on this occasion, I really have had enough and will write to all my local TDs, union meetings etc

Juniorhurler

Just thinking about this, we would be as well draw a line in the sand now because in a few years when the new entrants on reduced contracts outnumber us on old contracts the govt will come after us, offering the new entrants a token gesture to sell us and our conditions out.

For the good of the profession now is the time to stand up.

whiteandlight

Emails sent to all my local TD's though I forgot to change the name of the Dear... on two of them. Ooops Hopefully they actually read the rest of it after that!

Strike or no strike, I will not be able to continue my level of commitment to school and extra curricular activities next year. I am exhausted as it is never mind with more contact hours even if it is just supervision.

As I said in those letters, I have over 500 points in my Leaving Cert, a first class honours degree, a first class honours PGDE. I am young enough and will retrain if this type of degrading of our contracts continues. They will lose the brightest and best out of teaching. I'm already looking at courses in programming/computers as I just cannot take much more of the abuse/constant cuts/uncertainty about my position (non-permanent) in this profession.

For anyone looking to send emails here's a couple of facts (OECD Education at a glance 2012):

Our wages are above the average but the two issues below are far more telling as to the state of our current education system.
1. We have the third highest pupil teacher ratio in the EU particularly if you look at the figures of teacher/pupil and do not include other staff. This is significantly above both the EU and the OECD averages.
2. We have a below average length of school year into which we are forced to cram one of the highest number of teaching contact hours per year in the world.

Teachers will now be in class contact time/teaching for about 23.5 hours a week. That leaves about 25 minutes planning per class were you to assume a 39hr week. With the size of our classes, correction and planning/photocopying, contacting parents etc takes far more than this. One class of 30 English essays for example, even if you speed read them in 3 minutes each would take 1.5hrs to correct. Bear in mind we must write individual comments for all students on homework.

doc_17

If we reject the deal and government impose it anyway I'd love it if the unions issued a directive to ignore the CP hours.

Miss Lockhart

Rte saying TUI recommending a no vote.

whiteandlight

Fair play to them!

History Queen

Trotter wrote: »

Backbone isn't a problem with me thanks. I have 2 babies and a mortgage to pay. If we strike, I'll lose x days wages in one go and I haven't the savings to cover that right now. If I get a paycut it'll still cause me huge problems but over a longer period.

Either option for me is unacceptable and I'm disgusted that having achieved what is supposed to be a good job that Im still working hard financially to make sure things stay on the straight and narrow.

I have backbone, but my family can't eat backbone, the bank won't accept it for the mortgage and yet Im still voting no. This problem started when my union agreed CP1.

My point is that things have been let go so bad that people like me are in a no win situation.

Of course, like I say I can speak for no one only myself ... And when I spoke of backbone I absolutely was not attacking you I meant the unions/ opposition to government as a whole. I didn't mean to offend/ target anyone.

TheDriver

I must say I am a bit surprised the TUI recommended that we vote no..........quite interesting.....

Trotter

TheDriver wrote: »

I agree with you totally Trotter, we have been around these boards a long time but I think one point you made is wrong, the union didn't agree CP1, all the members did

I know what you mean and it was a democratic decision but it was based on such advice like this is a deal to 2014 etc.

History Queen wrote: »

Of course, like I say I can speak for no one only myself ... And when I spoke of backbone I absolutely was not attacking you I meant the unions/ opposition to government as a whole. I didn't mean to offend/ target anyone.

God Im not offended don't worry, I was just saying that things have become so bad in general with property taxes, pay cuts etc that even standing up for ourselves is going to force people to vote yes because they can't take the short term hit of losing so much wages in a short space of time.

Fizzical

The TUI have recommended a No vote, fair play to them. The INTO have deferred making their decision - and the ASTI are silent so far.

How many years is it since members asked the unions to act in concert in all our interests? Is this not possible, even in this dire situation?

Would I be cynical to presume that the ASTI will leave the vote open and the INTO will recommend a YES vote?.....

TheDriver

true, it annoys me that the deal was cut short, the govt broke the deal by wanting to change it this year

Trotter

Crikey when I think back to when I started the teaching & lecturing forum here and was full of enthusiasm and willing to do so much more beyond the norm for the job..

They've eroded every semblance of good will. The government don't know what they had and even if they did, they don't seem to care that they're losing it.

ShamoBuc

TheDriver wrote: »

primary have the same but I don't know how the non yard duty bit can effect them to be honest, their working day is full as it is

I would imagine it will cover the supervision of children sent in from a class whose teacher is out sick and no sub will be brought in.
All uncertified sick leave - no sub allowed, no matter how many teachers ring in sick on any given day. First day of certified sick leave, Force Majure leave, Family illness leave etc - no sub cover.

I wouldn't like to be a sub.

Miss Lockhart

ShamoBuc wrote: »

I would imagine it will cover the supervision of children sent in from a class whose teacher is out sick and no sub will be brought in.
All uncertified sick leave - no sub allowed, no matter how many teachers ring in sick on any given day. First day of certified sick leave, Force Majure leave, Family illness leave etc - no sub cover.

I wouldn't like to be a sub.

Will this be allowed to be included for second level also then? Amalgamation of classes happens daily in my school.

jonseyblub

Fizzical wrote: »

The TUI have recommended a No vote, fair play to them. The INTO have deferred making their decision - and the ASTI are silent so far.

How many years is it since members asked the unions to act in concert in all our interests? Is this not possible, even in this dire situation?

Would I be cynical to presume that the ASTI will leave the vote open and the INTO will recommend a YES vote?.....

The TUIi are quick off the mark this time because they have large amount of members in 3rd level. This fact that they will now not be paid for correcting exams and be required to do an extra 60odd hours on top of that means a big change in their conditions compared to the changes at 2nd level. The other 3rd level union have also recommended rejection.

doc_17

My reading of the deal is this: we're getting a pay cut. One way or the other.

Vote yes: Pay cut with extra hours s&s and continuation of CP hours from CP1. Also, a big bullseye on our back again as been seen as a soft touch.

Vote no: Pay cut. Then we work to rule. No extra S&S if we aren't being paid for it. Goodbye CP1 hours because as the government violated the original agreement and cut pay before 2014 we then don't do the pen pushing exercises. But this also sends a signal.....we have had enough. Industrial action doesn't mean all out strike.

ShamoBuc

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

Will this be allowed to be included for second level also then? Amalgamation of classes happens daily in my school.

Not really sure of second level. I think they have to make themselves available for supervising 1 or 2 extra classes a week, built around their free class in their timetable - I'm not certain of their details though.

Miss Lockhart

ShamoBuc wrote: »

Not really sure of second level. I think they have to make themselves available for supervising 1 or 2 extra classes a week, built around their free class in their timetable - I'm not certain of their details though.

Yes we will have to make ourselves available for 5 classes but if primary are allowed count supervising extra students in their classroom then surely the same would have to apply at secondary.

Powerhouse

Musicmental85 wrote: »

2. We have a below average length of school year into which we are forced to cram one of the highest number of teaching contact hours per year in the world.

Obvious solution to this is to work the same as, say, English schools where you get the holidays in late July instead. That would sort out the cramming in of teaching contact hours. Be careful what you wish for!

Miss Lockhart

Powerhouse wrote: »

Obvious solution to this is to work the same as, say, English schools where you get the holidays in late July instead. That would sort out the cramming in of teaching contact hours. Be careful what you wish for!

How would working extra weeks reduce our yearly total hours which is nearly the highest in the OECD. The fact is that whilst our students might have lower than average yearly contact hours, our teachers are well above average.

implausible

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

Yes we will have to make ourselves available for 5 classes but if primary are allowed count supervising extra students in their classroom then surely the same would have to apply at secondary.

To be fair, the situation you describe is not the norm in all secondary schools. In our place amalgamating classes is only done in exceptional cases.

Miss Lockhart

implausible wrote: »

To be fair, the situation you describe is not the norm in all secondary schools. In our place amalgamating classes is only done in exceptional cases.

Yes but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be treated the same when it does occur. Maybe it will happen less though with more cover available.

teacherhead

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

Will this be allowed to be included for second level also then? Amalgamation of classes happens daily in my school.

Hi all, first post. Must be getting agitated enough to join!

're amalgamation of classes I reccomend that you limit numbers in this instance to 30 which is the max under union directives for general subjects. If its substitution the working conditions should be the same as for the normal teacher.

I think that resistance should start today, do your job, do it well. Forget the rest.

I spent February mid term on aschool tour, by choice admittedly, looks far less attractive next year, my time has suddenly become more valuable.
'
It was all the strike talk that caught my eye. Like a previous poster said theres more to resistance than striking..

Start with implementing directives. Dont do a min over your 1.5 hours for s&s walk out at four.

Get to a,union meeting, submit motions to congress which are soon, ask the union to ban cooperation with any curricular change, meetings with inspectors etc.

The extra curricular is a difficult one, individual teachers need to decide that one for themselves.

Just my thoughts. Parents only know what kids tell them, at present in most schools nothing had given in schools, everyone took up a bit of the slack and look where we are. If the extras disappear people will soon wake up and support us.

Powerhouse

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

How would working extra weeks reduce our yearly total hours which is nearly the highest in the OECD. The fact is that whilst our students might have lower than average yearly contact hours, our teachers are well above average.

Of course it wouldn't. I am simply saying that any argument complaining that our hours are 'crammed in' to a set number of weeks invites this obvious riposte. So people need to be careful what they say.

And don't assume logic governes much. The Croke Park hours don't save a penny yet they were introduced as part of an austerity package, presumably because it increases the number of hours teachers work on paper and therefore reduces the averaged hourly rate paid. Self-delusion is a strong governing feature of the auserity drive, so it would be foolish to expect all arguments against us to be water-tight before being made.

whiteandlight

To be honest I could manage an extra hour a week if they had lengthened the school year (and spread out our current teaching hours). I cannot do it under the current conditions-I'm exhausted already. The government could have chosen to take this into account and brought the length of the school year to the table. Instead they decided to ignore it and try and force more hours in on top of us without considering the difficulties of the current system.

If we let this through I would expect the next thing to be our holidays anyways. I'm a VEC teacher so our contract only allows for 6 weeks summer holidays already.

Darwin

TUI has rejected the new croke park proposals. I have to say I'm pleasantly surprised, perhaps all those angry emails had some effect.

implausible

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

Yes but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be treated the same when it does occur. Maybe it will happen less though with more cover available.

No, my point is that it doesn't and shouldn't happen at second level, so it can't really be legislated for. Has nobody in your school complained about this situation? It sounds like the s/s is not being used properly in your school at all, as presumably, if you're amalgamating classes it's not going down as s/s, it's been treated as regular classes.