Is it Time for the tui &co to step up?

Moody_mona

ASTI have recommended a NO vote.

acequion

That's a very welcome piece of news.

ShamoBuc

TUI and ASTI showing the INTO what they should have done.

acequion

lennyloulou wrote: »

joint union meeting in our school earlier this week. 30 out of 60plus staff turned up.staff very down and have given up. no fight left. out union reps on the staff are pro management anyhow they never fight our corner- we get 2 hours allocated towards CP1 hours even though we all come in to school from 5pm to 9pm to run the open night/tours/dems- big event- no extra hours given in lieu towards preparing/setting up class rooms. anyhow because of the bad feeling of this (and many more extra hours given without recognition for other events eg grad masses, awards ceremonies) now the CP2 being brought in ( Yes it will come in- ASTI are a joke- no back bone in them) our staff morale will be at an all time low - hard to keep up the good spirit!

I don't mean to have a go at you lennyloulou but by saying that CP2 will come in, you are showing that same defeatism which has got us to this low point. Those of us with fight and spirit have to beat the defeatism and not join it! CP2 can't go through if enough public servants oppose it. And now at least the ASTI are starting to stick up for us.

All our angry emails to the union must have helped secure that recommendation. After all, we are the ones who pay their wages so it's high time they listened to us!

joebloggs32

lennyloulou wrote: »

joint union meeting in our school earlier this week. 30 out of 60plus staff turned up.staff very down and have given up. no fight left. out union reps on the staff are pro management anyhow they never fight our corner- we get 2 hours allocated towards CP1 hours even though we all come in to school from 5pm to 9pm to run the open night/tours/dems- big event- no extra hours given in lieu towards preparing/setting up class rooms. anyhow because of the bad feeling of this (and many more extra hours given without recognition for other events eg grad masses, awards ceremonies) now the CP2 being brought in ( Yes it will come in- ASTI are a joke- no back bone in them) our staff morale will be at an all time low - hard to keep up the good spirit!

Time for ye to elect reps who will put your interests first

teacherhead

I'm a rep in my school, TUI. Any effort I made over the past few years was met by people who didn't care because they weren't affectedjust laying down

The wouldn't attend meetings, endlessly ask what was the TUI doing etc. Side deals were endlessly made by individuals so the union only mattered on the really big issues.

This year people are tired, tired of being squeezed for the last ounce of work, the last bit of goodwill. There is a mood of change, and it will be for the benefit of staff that things change

Lennylou, call an asti meeting yourself, air the dirty laundry, call it as it is. New reps, maybe you! Get down to business.

The asti cannot solve your problems for you but if you get things together in aschool they can support you.

all teachers worried about from about 2000 on was when was the next pay rise coming? They disengaged from their unions and got complacent. It's not too late to change this.

Lockedout

ASTI standing committee (top guys) grows a pair (sorry ladies) and votes to recommend rejection!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Powerhouse

acequion wrote: »

And now at least the ASTI are starting to stick up for us.

The ASTI executive has merely made a recommendation which members can accept or reject. It is important to remember that the ASTI is its members. They and only they will actually decide what the ASTI does - the executive, notwithstanding its alleged recent development of male appendages, cannot. Unfortunately many of those members tend not to attend union meetings or the like very much so they might not be terribly active. Whether 'they' decide to 'stick up for us' in fact remains to be seen.

teacherhead

This will be a numbers game.

The new entrants / pro rata teachers. How many would gain from the proposals, Are they in a union, is there any real gain? Possibly more likely to accept, the prospect of no more paid supervision might swing it

The lifers, with 20 years plus stand to lose a lot - all union members I'd say big no vote here

The middle ground, under 65k for a long time yet, of the generation where conditions were good and money was flowing, myself included here. Largely disengaged from the union, but members nonetheless - harder to call.

Heavily mortgaged, cant afford a cut, all that lark, accept it and get on, things will get better.... Need to be careful of this.

Personally, big mortgage over a third of take home pay per month, three kids under 4, one income. Already though the croke park hours are putting pressure on home life, late home one evening a week guaranteed, no choice. Remove my free classes nights will be spent preparing instead of my free school time - it's simple for me, we are getting cut anyway, I'll spend my evenings with my family and my free classes doing prep or whatever, football is gone from September. We will struggle on a pay cut but at least we wont be struggling with me stuck in school til all hours and my wife left on her own to manage all the,rest.

The easy option is to vote yes, at 30 I dont want to spend the next 35years doing 49 free hours plus whatever comes in croke park 3, I'm voting no.

Lord TSC

teacherhead wrote: »

The new entrants / pro rata teachers. How many would gain from the proposals, Are they in a union, is there any real gain? Possibly more likely to accept, the prospect of no more paid supervision might swing it

How many would gain? No one! In my opinion, this deal would devastate the new entrants, and any who vote FOR it should be shot.

The only worry, as you say, is how many are in unions. Unfortunately, I'm not; I've not worked enough over the three years since I graduated to be able to afford it really, and I'm that jaded by the upper-echelons of the unions that I've wanted very little to do with them, as a lot of people at my level might do as well.

It's why I feel my level will be relying heavily on the consciences of those above us, hoping they realize how this is the final nail in the coffin for new entrants and actually think of the overall profession rather than just their own pockets....

doc_17

Now, more than ever before, younger teachers need to be in a union.

teacherhead

Tui news special out, worth a read

http://www.tui.ie/news-events/tui-news-ballot-special.2996.html

whiteandlight

This section needs to be more widely published as it is the part that should encourage those in the middle to vote against. It's a huge issue for CIDs!

whiteandlight

This section needs to be more widely published as it is the part that should encourage those in the middle to vote against. It's a huge issue for CIDs!

byhookorbycrook

No-one gains, the 65K figure is being bandied about to make younger members think they aren't losing out. S+S is gone from everyone, extra work all round. I'm fed up of people knocking unions who won't get off their asses to go to meetings.

implausible

A colleague put it well today: "I don't care about having do a few extra hours, as long as my take-home stays the same and I can pay my mortgage." There were a lot of nodding heads around the table. People who attend meetings, by and large, tend to have strong opinions, people who post on here tend to have strong opinions, NQTS (who are often not in a union) have strong opinions, but they are not the only people voting. My colleague is fairly representative of those who will be voting. And unless the executive and reps get the message across loud enough to deafen the "losing s/s, cuts over 65k" media summary, my colleague will be representative of those who will vote.

It's just an observation, don't eat me:eek:

TheDriver

i am sick of people presuming it will all go through anyways...........most teachers I know don't even bother reading the summaries or proposals

implausible

TheDriver wrote: »

i am sick of people presuming it will all go through anyways...........most teachers I know don't even bother reading the summaries or proposals

Well, there is precedent! People know that we are a minority in ICTU.

There is a lack of time and interest in reading the summaries. Teachers, like the general public, get their information from the News headlines and all they are hearing is "bye bye s/s, cuts over 65k." You are not going to outshout that message by relying on a handful of teachers (if you're lucky) going to meetings and maybe relaying that message back to staff.

What's needed are posters, emails, facebook, texts, visits from union officials, strong, convincing appearances on tv, local radio and whatever else. We live in a noisy digital age, make some noise.

acequion

TheDriver wrote: »

i am sick of people presuming it will all go through anyways...........most teachers I know don't even bother reading the summaries or proposals

I find that hugely worrying. I really cannot understand this resignation to what they perceive as inevitable. Why are so many like that? Anyone got a theory?

Lord TSC

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

I'm fed up of people knocking unions who won't get off their asses to go to meetings.

I've made my thoughts clear on that line of thinking in the past before so won't delve into it again. I'll just say it's hard not to knock unions when they seem quite content to hack the living daylights out of the lowest and most vulnerable end of the scale, while the nurses unions are out screaming bloody murder about the treatment of their new entrants...

newfrontier

looking at polls it is going to be fairly close but if there is a no vote how do you think the situation will develop. Nobody wants a strike but have we reached that point?

sitstill

newfrontier wrote: »

looking at polls it is going to be fairly close but if there is a no vote how do you think the situation will develop. Nobody wants a strike but have we reached that point?

I would be willing to strike at this point if it comes to it.

Is there a way we could add a poll on here? A simple Croke Park 2: Yes or No vote?

Inspector Coptoor

Striking isn't really an option in my opinion. It won't reay achieve anything

When a no vote is cast (hopefully), the government will legislate for pay cuts.

I'd prefer to take a pay cut than have conditions further eroded.

If the government impose these cuts, we can start a work to rule policy.

Examples:
Croke park hours - gone.
Parent teacher meetings - back to during school time.

Ultimately. It's the government who have reneged on CP1.

whiteandlight

I'm with you. I reckon they'll be back for our pay anyways so might as well take it now and not erode the job any further.

happywithlife

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Striking isn't really an option in my opinion. It won't reay achieve anything

When a no vote is cast (hopefully), the government will legislate for pay cuts.

I'd prefer to take a pay cut than have conditions further eroded.

If the government impose these cuts, we can start a work to rule policy.

Examples:
Croke park hours - gone.
Parent teacher meetings - back to during school time.

Ultimately. It's the government who have reneged on CP1.

Agree with you I think.
I know it'll prob be too late to be included in vote, but joined our union this week. Hate croke park. Stupid waste of valuable hours. I am staying back this week one day after school - 4 extra hours that will count for nothing. Will also be doing at least 2 extra days over Easter. That does not include the endless extra time given with 10 mins here, 20 mins there to students when I'm free.

teacherhead

Industrial action doesn't have to be a strike.

Work to your contract and no more. Hopefully the unions will refuse to cooperate with school self evaluation and the new JC.

Each teacher has to make up their own minds re extra curricular activities.

Lord TSC

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Striking isn't really an option in my opinion. It won't really achieve anything

It would achieve showing who has the power. Instead of sitting back and watching the government hack away at the profession, a strike would send a message to them to back off and lay off. It would show that teachers actually have quite a hefty bit of power over the country right now, and that teachers hold the futures of this country in it's hand, and if the government want to keep cutting the profession down, then teachers are going to cut back at them...

Inspector Coptoor

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

It would achieve showing who has the power. Instead of sitting back and watching the government hack away at the profession, a strike would send a message to them to back off and lay off. It would show that teachers actually have quite a hefty bit of power over the country right now, and that teachers hold the futures of this country in it's hand, and if the government want to keep cutting the profession down, then teachers are going to cut back at them...

for a strike to be meaningful, it has to be sustained until demands are met.
I don't think a strike by teachers would achieve this.

most teachers couldn't actually afford to take a a couple of weeks without getting paid for going on strike.

If we strike, we'll lose even more public support.

byhookorbycrook

The other big issue that seems to be getting ignored is that CP1 was to run until 2014. The DES is talking of bring this in by July.

Lord TSC

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

for a strike to be meaningful, it has to be sustained until demands are met.
I don't think a strike by teachers would achieve this.

most teachers couldn't actually afford to take a a couple of weeks without getting paid for going on strike.

That bit I understand. I appreciate it's easier for me as an unemployed teacher seeing opportunities dwindle to suggest strikes. My answer was to what it would achieve in the long run though, with a mindset of protecting the profession, not if it would suit those lucky enough to have jobs.

But...

If we strike, we'll lose even more public support.

This bit I don't agree with.

The sad fact is teachers have already lost the public support. The government and the media have set out to create the image of teachers being lazy, overpaid, over-holiday'd egomaniacs whose job is easier than we let on. Post a topic over on After Hours and see how much support teachers have on the matter

If anything, I think that should be a strength for the teachers though; I think that public support shouldn't be that high on the agenda any more since those who support teachers will support teachers, and those who don't are already gone.

Inspector Coptoor

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

This bit I don't agree with.

The sad fact is teachers have already lost the public support. The government and the media have set out to create the image of teachers being lazy, overpaid, over-holiday'd egomaniacs whose job is easier than we let on. Post a topic over on After Hours and see how much support teachers have on the matter

If anything, I think that should be a strength for the teachers though; I think that public support shouldn't be that high on the agenda any more since those who support teachers will support teachers, and those who don't are already gone.

yeah, fair point.

I still think Easter could be used to hold a large demonstration on Kildare st

Fizzical

teacherhead wrote: »

Industrial action doesn't have to be a strike.

Work to your contract and no more. Hopefully the unions will refuse to cooperate with school self evaluation and the new JC.

Each teacher has to make up their own minds re extra curricular activities.

The trouble is, do we know what's in our contract any more?

I'm not sure. The only contract I have is the one I signed a long time ago and I don't know if it counts after all the different agreements. Did these not vary it - e.g the fact that we agreed to hold meeting outside of school hours etc? Even before CP I?

Lord TSC

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

yeah, fair point.

I still think Easter could be used to hold a large demonstration on Kildare st

Well, to go back to what you asked, what do you hope to achieve with a demonstration? What would be the outcome from a demonstration?

teacherhead

Fizzical wrote: »

The trouble is, do we know what's in our contract any more?

I'm not sure. The only contract I have is the one I signed a long time ago and I don't know if it counts after all the different agreements. Did these not vary it - e.g the fact that we agreed to hold meeting outside of school hours etc? Even before CP I?

Could easily be found out. Only one pt meeting per term out of school any more half in half out.

One staff meeting per term outside school time from memory. Thats it, 167 days, any other stuff comes from these days.

chippers

I'm working in the public sector in Spain and the teachers had about ten strike days in the last school year and there has been about three or four in this school year. This is all in response to cuts to pay / extra hours etc It has got the teachers no where other than losing out on €100 for each day in pay.

The strike days have been optional and at the start the percentage of teachers that went on strike was high but as it went on, and teachers were losing more and more in pay they have gradually stopped striking. It made absolutely no effect on changing govt policy.

newfrontier

chippers wrote: »

I'm working in the public sector in Spain and the teachers had about ten strike days in the last school year and there has been about three or four in this school year. This is all in response to cuts to pay / extra hours etc It has got the teachers no where other than losing out on €100 for each day in pay.

The strike days have been optional and at the start the percentage of teachers that went on strike was high but as it went on, and teachers were losing more and more in pay they have gradually stopped striking. It made absolutely no effect on changing govt policy.

Very interesting points raised. I thought a poll might help to see how we as a group ....think things might progress/change. I choose the wording to reflect common points raised already. I believe yes/no would have not reflected discussion to date. I think well timed strike action with other unions might achieve something. 3 days around june with other PS unions acting in unison as well would certainly prove a point ie "enough is enough". I see no value in strike action at any other time of the year. Just remember last time, but I realize this will have consequences in terms of public opinion. But you either commit to a serious action or you suffer the cuts.

As quoted above I think something similar would happen here if we were to adopt a similar approach.

newfrontier

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

yeah, fair point.

I still think Easter could be used to hold a large demonstration on Kildare st

I think we need something a bit stronger...

TheDriver

stringent work to rule. No junior cert reform, no literacy or numeracy implementation, no SSE, no meetings with incidental inspectors, no cooperation with student teachers, withdrawal from anything other than teaching (GAA won't be long lobbying the Govt), stop the half in out lark as that was benchmarking and our pay has gone. There are many many ways to make our point without striking.......

slickmcvic

TheDriver wrote: »

stringent work to rule. No junior cert reform, no literacy or numeracy implementation, no SSE, no meetings with incidental inspectors, no cooperation with student teachers, withdrawal from anything other than teaching (GAA won't be long lobbying the Govt), stop the half in out lark as that was benchmarking and our pay has gone. There are many many ways to make our point without striking.......

No supervision, No substitution come September,
It's not like we'll be gettin paid for it anyways!

TheDriver

slickmcvic wrote: »

No supervision, No substitution come September,
It's not like we'll be gettin paid for it anyways!

If we vote yes, then its part of our deal.
If we vote no, then the scheme is still there unless the govt legislates for it to be gone, which without agreement would mean work to rule and no s&s,

Lord TSC

TheDriver wrote: »

stringent work to rule. No junior cert reform, no literacy or numeracy implementation, no SSE, no meetings with incidental inspectors, no cooperation with student teachers, withdrawal from anything other than teaching (GAA won't be long lobbying the Govt), stop the half in out lark as that was benchmarking and our pay has gone. There are many many ways to make our point without striking.......

Yeah, that's great. Protest plans that will cripple new teachers by refusing to co-operate with new teachers.

The problem, in my opinion, with that line of thinking is mostly all that hurts are the students. It puts no pressure on the government, it slightly irks a minority of parents but it damages the students most of all. Taking away sports or other extra-curricular activities only hurts students. Refusing to discuss new reforms or programs damages students' education, not the government.

A strike, on the other hand, actually does cause major disruptions across the board. Yes, students get hurt too, but so do other sectors, and it forces people other than teachers to put pressure on the government to back away.

I do, and I stress this, understand why some don't want to go down the strike route from a financial aspect. I appreciate the anti-strike arguements, and again acknowledge that it's easy for me as an unemployed NQT to sit here and be pro-striking. But when we're talking about why the unions don't step up (as the topic title asks), and also say we don't want them using their most potent negotiation tool, it's hardly surprising the government have the guts to walk in, throw a take-it-or-leave-it deal on the table and have no fear of them.

TheDriver

by no cooperation, I mean that schools simply don't take them, then colleges must lobby minister that no one can get TP, then minister has to suddenly appreciate that he must be more conscience of the voluntary aspect of schools in teacher education.
I don't agree with the strike, not so much from a financial aspect but more that it suits the Govt and will simply get people annoyed at teachers. However work to rule makes a point without backing ourselves into a corner.

amacca

TheDriver wrote: »

by no cooperation, I mean that schools simply don't take them, then colleges must lobby minister that no one can get TP, then minister has to suddenly appreciate that he must be more conscience of the voluntary aspect of schools in teacher education.

I agree with you driver.......govt/media etc have no appreciation of the massive amount of voluntary stuff that goes on in many schools + the difficulties faced in the job and they wont until this type of stuff withdrawn across the board....it will continue to be taken for granted until we start to take it back

eg: no sports coaching, no weeks spent rehearsing for school musical, no debating, no afterschool study, no breakfast clubs, no working through lunch, no school trips, no extra classes, no supervising school discos + all the myriad other stuff done out of goodwill thats brushed under the carpet when these type of discussions arise etc etc

+ no more taking sh1t from students/parents etc when it comes to kids repeatedly not toeing the line etc etc ...absolutely nail them on anything less than perfect behaviour (within the guidelines and rules of course) and follow up ad nauseum

the problem with this however is it will have to be implemented across the board by everyone with no-one or as few as possible breaking rank and that would be difficult if not impossible to get without proper guidance/organisation/growing a pair etc from unions

TheDriver wrote: »

I don't agree with the strike, not so much from a financial aspect but more that it suits the Govt and will simply get people annoyed at teachers. However work to rule makes a point without backing ourselves into a corner.

Agreed, withdrawing from voluntary stuff in its entirety and having the backbone to no longer bend rules etc is actually a much stronger tool for lots of reasons not least of which it wont hurt teachers in their pockets and they can sustain it for longer + it has the potential in the long run to make people (reasonable ones at least)/govt aware of difficulties in the system and just how much bang for their buck they are actually getting under difficult conditions while having the possibility of turning the media tide in our favour as well

I think a strike would suit the govt down to the ground....unless every other union went out in a co-ordinated action

doc_17

Let them legislate. Let them break the agreement.

Option 1: have your pay cut and have to do all this extra crap.

Option 2: have your pay cut.

This agreement must be rejected.

amacca

doc_17 wrote: »

Let them legislate. Let them break the agreement.

Option 1: have your pay cut and have to do all this extra crap.

Option 2: have your pay cut.

This agreement must be rejected.

yes, but lets hope others see it that way and not get blinded with spin and propaganda

solerina

Totally agree with the work to rule concept a it would put it out there once and for all how much voluntary work is done day in day out by teachers...my only worry is that in many schools there are lots of people not in unions who would be 'encouraged' by management to take up the slack....these would usually be the people in no position to say no...who are doing everything they can do to hang onto whatever few hours they have (I am not in that position but I would worry about the back lash to NQTs etc)

TheDriver

doc_17 wrote: »

Let them legislate. .

and let me write to my local TDs asking them to make it known what way they voted on the legislation.........they were able to break ranks for pensioners and many other groups, let them break ranks for their voters.....

teacherhead

amacca wrote: »

yes, but lets hope others see it that way and not get blinded with spin and propaganda

If you have to do it yourself and give them the info ot would be time well spent. I sent an email to all staff in my school with a summary of the agreement, attached a copy of tui news special.

Was approached and thanked today, colleague admitted that it was great because she'd never bother reading it all herself.

This is what we're up against

Lord TSC

TheDriver wrote: »

and let me write to my local TDs asking them to make it known what way they voted on the legislation.........they were able to break ranks for pensioners and many other groups, let them break ranks for their voters.....

On that note, one week on and I've still only got a single reply from my local TDs and that was a message telling me he'd further it on to Mr. Quinn. :rolleyes:

acequion

The fist thing is to make sure we get a NO vote.So we must all actively campaign by selling the NO vote. This simply entails telling every teacher we come in contact with to vote no.I was at an in-service today and brought up the subject to everyone I met. For every committed no voter I spoke to, there was another who was hesitant,I suspect seriously considering voting yes. I used my powers of persuasion to the hilt and hopefully swung a few.I honestly cannot comprehend their mindset.Who in their sane, sober, senses would vote yes? Bloody spineless!

I very much agree re all the suggestions about withdrawing voluntary activities and work to rule.I actually think that by not resisting these attacks, we are actually tacitly agreeing with the spin that teachers are lazy and overpaid. By resisting, we might actually get back some of the respect we should never have lost in the first place.