Is it Time for the tui &co to step up?

Melanoma

It is time for newly hired teachers to split from the fat cat unions and form a more militant union. There is nothing worth talking about when cut backs can reduce a part times teacher from say 32,000 with subs and sup plus some cover to 27,000. That is a 5000 euro hit for the lowest paid workers.

The most recent recruits are on less than that.

I am being left to hang out to dry.

It's around a 14% pay cut on top of the fact I will probably loose hours also.

Meanwhile there will be no honours maths class for the 7 students that want it next year so no future engineers or scientists. Nice one Fine Gael.

Bleating Lamb

It is suiting the Govt down to the ground that the public service unions are not talking at all about possible ramifications for their members and the country as a whole for accepting or rejecting Croke Park 2.
Factors such as how children in Primary Schools will spend many more days been babysat in another teachers room as through govt measures a sub teacher cannot be employed from 1st day of certified sick leave or for funeral cover.
Personally I think the act of taking away sub cover for the first day of a teachers funeral leave is a disgusting and vile low move.Is this the Govt indirectly hoping teachers cremate their dear departed in the first 24 hours so they can be back in work the next day!!!!
Most people both inside and outside of the public service are not taking near enough notice of the small print in Croke Park 2.

Fizzical

Melanoma wrote: »

It is time for newly hired teachers to split from the fat cat unions and form a more militant union. There is nothing worth talking about when cut backs can reduce a part times teacher from say 32,000 with subs and sup plus some cover to 27,000. That is a 5000 euro hit for the lowest paid workers.

The most recent recruits are on less than that.

I am being left to hang out to dry.

It's around a 14% pay cut on top of the fact I will probably loose hours also.

Meanwhile there will be no honours maths class for the 7 students that want it next year so no future engineers or scientists. Nice one Fine Gael.

Are you actually in a union - or just making noise?

I am in a union. What makes you think that I'm a fat cat? Or that I'm not being hung out to dry as well?

Maybe the unions shouldn't have gone into discussions at all, maybe they should just have said 'yes, minister, whatever you want'. Have you read the original proposals?

If you want to start a new union, off you go.

Lord TSC

Fizzical wrote: »

Are you actually in a union - or just making noise?

I am in a union. What makes you think that I'm a fat cat? Or that I'm not being hung out to dry as well?

Maybe the unions shouldn't have gone into discussions at all, maybe they should just have said 'yes, minister, whatever you want'. Have you read the original proposals?

If you want to start a new union, off you go.

Ah, come off it now. I think his point was there's a group at the top of the unions who are out to protect their own wages. He's not saying everyone in a union is a fatcat.

And while you may be hurt by these proposals, it's the newest teachers being hurt most of all. It's the young teachers with no jobs who are seeing 100% of their earning potential disappear with the abolition of sub work. It's the NQTs who are taking a disproportionate amount of the damage from these proposals. And I don't see how you can accuse him of wanting the unions to lie down and give into initial demands given the tone and nature of his post.

As far as starting a new union though, I just don't think that would work at all. I appreciate the sentiment and have criticised the unions more than most on here, but there's no way a new union aimed at NQTs would work out in reality.

For one, what bargaining tool would it have? Strikes? Most aren't even working, and those who are cannot afford the financial or employment risks of starting that sort of thing up due to the nature of their part-time contract. Can't work to contract either for the same reason. And the last demonstration organised by "NQTs" was an unmitigated PR disaster. A new union like that would only work if you could guarantee solidarity on a 100% level, with every part-timer, unemployed and graduating teacher signing on board. Anything under 100% will simply lead to people being fearful of action since they are easily replaceable.

We don't need new unions. We need solidarity on the level of the nurses unions, who cried bloody murder when their lowest paid members were targeted. We need the older, credible teachers standing up for us and for them to be willing to back up all actions to protect not just young teachers but the profession as well. That's why I agree with your sentiment; it's obvious the unions haven't been showing that solidarity. It's just a new union simply would not be feesable on the scale you or I would want.

Meanwhile, got a reply back from Gerry Adams this morning. While I am by no means a supporter of his, at least the email let me know his party's stance; that "Sinn Féin has already made clear its decision to support the Teachers’ Union of Ireland who have advised their members to reject the Croke Park 2 Agreement because, as their general secretary John McGowan correctly stated, the proposals will have a disproportionate impact on lower paid teachers."

teacherhead

Union, united, all together....

A strong no vote shows solidarity among all teachers and public sector workers generally.

It annoys me so much when I hear of people feeling sold out etc, it may be true to an extent at least UN appearance.

I have sat at so many union meetings, the only person under 50, but I went and made my views known and challenged and asked questions and tried to influence.

I'm not sure if I could measure my success but I know that banging on about things in the,staffroom or on here will change nothing. I'm off to the tui meeting tomorrow night in tallaght, I hope to get an insight and some more info, I will share it here, but I wonder will it be well attended, from a staff of 40 its just me going, is that the unions fault?

joebloggs32

If there is a no vote and they cut pay then it is time for industrial action but not a strike. We had agreement and now the government want to throw it out.
A strike suits the government. They won't have to keep paying us, however like the guards, we can withdraw all goodwill. This enables a much longer campaign as most could not afford to miss even one pay cheque. Let everyone turn up and do their job, but none of the extras. Yes it will be unfair on the kids that lose out, but if we give in to these conditions what will they come for next.
As stated cut out tours and trips. Fundraising, sports and musicals too. There are a lot of private sector jobs relying on us from bus companies to sound and lighting crews etc.
Withdraw from after school ptms and s&s if not being paid, along with all croke park hours. No one to cover any posts unless they are paid.
We can do all of this while still doing what we are qualified to do, TEACH!
This is where the unions would need to coordinate a strong plan so that members in all schools follow it. If members/schools break ranks then deal with them straight away.

teacherhead

joebloggs32 wrote: »

If there is a no vote and they cut pay then it is time for industrial action but not a strike. We had agreement and now the government want to throw it out.
A strike suits the government. They won't have to keep paying us, however like the guards, we can withdraw all goodwill. This enables a much longer campaign as most could not afford to miss even one pay cheque. Let everyone turn up and do their job, but none of the extras. Yes it will be unfair on the kids that lose out, but if we give in to these conditions what will they come for next.
As stated cut out tours and trips. Fundraising, sports and musicals too. There are a lot of private sector jobs relying on us from bus companies to sound and lighting crews etc.
Withdraw from after school ptms and s&s if not being paid, along with all croke park hours. No one to cover any posts unless they are paid.
We can do all of this while still doing what we are qualified to do, TEACH!
This is where the unions would need to coordinate a strong plan so that members in all schools follow it. If members/schools break ranks then deal with them straight away.

I'm not sure that it would be unfair on the kids. It might seem unfair. The GAA can look after football, FAI soccer etc. Let parents organise music / singing / woodturning / whatever lessons and pay for them at an hourly rate.

People are funny, they will give a hairdresser 150 euro for an hour's work doing their hair and then tell us we are overpaid. It's mostly because they dont realise what we give extra, they'll soon find out.

km79

joebloggs32 wrote: »

If there is a no vote and they cut pay then it is time for industrial action but not a strike. We had agreement and now the government want to throw it out.
A strike suits the government. They won't have to keep paying us, however like the guards, we can withdraw all goodwill. This enables a much longer campaign as most could not afford to miss even one pay cheque. Let everyone turn up and do their job, but none of the extras. Yes it will be unfair on the kids that lose out, but if we give in to these conditions what will they come for next.
As stated cut out tours and trips. Fundraising, sports and musicals too. There are a lot of private sector jobs relying on us from bus companies to sound and lighting crews etc.
Withdraw from after school ptms and s&s if not being paid, along with all croke park hours. No one to cover any posts unless they are paid.
We can do all of this while still doing what we are qualified to do, TEACH!
This is where the unions would need to coordinate a strong plan so that members in all schools follow it. If members/schools break ranks then deal with them straight away.

Exactly this. It will be tough. I'm heavily involved in sports. Feel its a very important part of school life and a great way to get to know the kids BUT its definitely taken for granted. It will only truly be appreciated when its gone. It's vital that all staff pull out though . Won't work otherwise

seavill

Melanoma wrote: »

It is time for newly hired teachers to split from the fat cat unions and form a more militant union. There is nothing worth talking about when cut backs can reduce a part times teacher from say 32,000 with subs and sup plus some cover to 27,000. That is a 5000 euro hit for the lowest paid workers.

The most recent recruits are on less than that.

I am being left to hang out to dry.

It's around a 14% pay cut on top of the fact I will probably loose hours also.

Meanwhile there will be no honours maths class for the 7 students that want it next year so no future engineers or scientists. Nice one Fine Gael.

This is completely OTT and melodramatic and exactly what is not needed. There have been enough false statements put out there by others we don't need to be getting on board as well.

There will be an honours maths group in probably every school they just won't get a dedicated class of just honours. They will be like all the other subjects and have both levels in the one class, they will most likely still at an advantage to other subjects as it is more likely to be split into honours and top OL students in one class rather than just a random split, compared to other subjects where the split will be random (slightly off topic there)

But making false exaggerated statements will not help.

Chris68

seavill wrote: »

There will be an honours maths group in probably every school they just won't get a dedicated class of just honours. They will be like all the other subjects and have both levels in the one class.
But making false exaggerated statements will not help.

Questionable whose statement is the false one there!

I know of at least one school that already does not have higher level maths. In practice it is not as simple as having the two levels in the one class.

seavill

Chris68 wrote: »

Questionable whose statement is the false one there!

I know of at least one school that already does not have higher level maths. In practice it is not as simple as having the two levels in the one class.

Why don't they have it? No students capable of it or what? I cannot see how there can be a situation where a school cannot provide an honours section to a class, as the maths class will have to be put on either way, its not like the school are dropping the subject.

You won't need more than one had to count the number of schools in the entire country where this might occur. My statement stands. The original one was OTT "no engineers scientists etc"

Melanoma

seavill wrote: »

Why don't they have it? No students capable of it or what? I cannot see how there can be a situation where a school cannot provide an honours section to a class, as the maths class will have to be put on either way, its not like the school are dropping the subject.

You won't need more than one had to count the number of schools in the entire country where this might occur. My statement stands. The original one was OTT "no engineers scientists etc"

The guys I am teaching maths are at the edge of dropping and doing ordinary level. If you had to teach ordinary level with all the problems that has for weaker students also and there would be some wanting to do foundation then it would be a non-runner. Honours maths is hard even for very capable students.

You are not speaking from experience your just mouthing off cause that is easy to do. In reality your just being ignorant.

You should continue this way cause you will live in bliss.

There wont be any engineers coming from the school I am in at least not directly maybe through certificates and diplomas I guess.

Look I am not going to waste my time repeating points to people that have no clue. I teach in a small school. If you are going to say yea of course they could then do so. Don't listen to someone who knows.:rolleyes:

spurious

Melanoma, please address the post, not the poster. Consider this a warning.

fall

seavill wrote: »

Why don't they have it? No students capable of it or what? I cannot see how there can be a situation where a school cannot provide an honours section to a class, as the maths class will have to be put on either way, its not like the school are dropping the subject.

You won't need more than one had to count the number of schools in the entire country where this might occur. My statement stands. The original one was OTT "no engineers scientists etc"

The courses are different and generally can't be taught in the same class. Especially if you have students that don't have a natural aptitude for maths and need huge support from the teacher. A school will have to make a decision how to use their resources. So as an example do they give maybe a small group of ten a class for honours maths and does that mean that maybe chemistry can't be offered as an option as all the resources are allocated.
It is a more complex issue than people realise.

Melanoma

spurious wrote: »

Melanoma, please address the post, not the poster. Consider this a warning.

I apologise for my last comment. I have been getting grief of people not working in teaching coming up with ideas they think are correct. Sometimes I have the patience to process their thinking for them but general I reserve my patience for children as they are deserving of the same.

I can be an aggressive person though this is not something most people would see me as. It is too easy to be this way on-line and is wrong to offend someone regardless of their opinion they are not just that opinion but much more and usually are trying to put forward their idea with good intent.

Coming form being an engineer for some years before becoming a teacher I often had opinions about teaching that once I became one proved to be wrong.

In work, I provide extra class of kids, help to run the computer systems in the school and run the Physics lab. All these things take a lot of time up and despite not having full hours and so not getting full pay, it would be very rare not to see me in work between 9 and 5 and I have to put in time in the evening and the weekend. If I was to do everything I am expected to do I'd never stop. There are policy documents to be wrote departmental and whole school. Unlike in England where there was often say 12 in a department you have to everything yourself.

I have a type A personality and would not be happy unless I was working hard. I dont like the summer holidays. I get bored and have no money so I can look after family and fix up the house but though its a good idea to break from kids so you can come back to them with new eyes as I say its boring.

I earned more as an engineer at aged 25 than I do now at age 41. I have over the last year considered leaving and going back into Engineering. The money is one thing but the constant bashing by the media is winding me up and this does not sit well with me. I am not thinking everyone is rolling in money and sure lets have small classes but equally I know the reality of teaching. I'd love to be able to combine classes and say in Physics or Science you can. Not in maths though. They are not different levels of the same material all though there is an overlap, honours maths is an extension of Ordinary level which in turn is an extension of Foundation level.

It would be analogous to teaching primary school kids multiplication while at the same time trying to teach some brainy kid in the class the theory of relativity. I asked them today in class what they thought of the idea and they all just laughed.

That's though no excuse for ear bashing someone outside of teaching and feck it, I guess jumping on the I know better than you band wagon and ranting was exactly what was bugging me and then I did myself.

seavill

fall wrote: »

The courses are different and generally can't be taught in the same class. Especially if you have students that don't have a natural aptitude for maths and need huge support from the teacher. A school will have to make a decision how to use their resources. So as an example do they give maybe a small group of ten a class for honours maths and does that mean that maybe chemistry can't be offered as an option as all the resources are allocated.
It is a more complex issue than people realise.

I can say the same for DCG, my subjects HL and OL could not be more unlike. There is barely any overlap at all, the two courses could not be more removed from each other as my HL section are finding out, yet we must get on with it as that is the way the resources are available.

My point was originally in relation to the first statement, these government decisions will not lead to no honours maths across the country or no engineers and scientists. The person clarified that the students in their school were on the border of OL as it was, they would most likely not be able for engineering anyway. My point was a situation in very small schools is not reflective of the country as a whole and just because there is not an individual HL class does not mean there won't still be students doing HL. Of course there will be like with all other subjects. The point although may be relevant in that individual school is not reflective of the overall country, and again my point being that if this was my reaction to it just imagine the responses statements like that will get from the general public.

Melanoma wrote: »

I apologise for my last comment. I have been getting grief of people not working in teaching coming up with ideas they think are correct. Sometimes I have the patience to process their thinking for them but general I reserve my patience for children as they are deserving of the same.

I can be an aggressive person though this is not something most people would see me as. It is too easy to be this way on-line and is wrong to offend someone regardless of their opinion they are not just that opinion but much more and usually are trying to put forward their idea with good intent.

Coming form being an engineer for some years before becoming a teacher I often had opinions about teaching that once I became one proved to be wrong.

In work, I provide extra class of kids, help to run the computer systems in the school and run the Physics lab. All these things take a lot of time up and despite not having full hours and so not getting full pay, it would be very rare not to see me in work between 9 and 5 and I have to put in time in the evening and the weekend. If I was to do everything I am expected to do I'd never stop. There are policy documents to be wrote departmental and whole school. Unlike in England where there was often say 12 in a department you have to everything yourself.

I have a type A personality and would not be happy unless I was working hard. I dont like the summer holidays. I get bored and have no money so I can look after family and fix up the house but though its a good idea to break from kids so you can come back to them with new eyes as I say its boring.

I earned more as an engineer at aged 25 than I do now at age 41. I have over the last year considered leaving and going back into Engineering. The money is one thing but the constant bashing by the media is winding me up and this does not sit well with me. I am not thinking everyone is rolling in money and sure lets have small classes but equally I know the reality of teaching. I'd love to be able to combine classes and say in Physics or Science you can. Not in maths though. They are not different levels of the same material all though there is an overlap, honours maths is an extension of Ordinary level which in turn is an extension of Foundation level.

It would be analogous to teaching primary school kids multiplication while at the same time trying to teach some brainy kid in the class the theory of relativity. I asked them today in class what they thought of the idea and they all just laughed.

That's though no excuse for ear bashing someone outside of teaching and feck it, I guess jumping on the I know better than you band wagon and ranting was exactly what was bugging me and then I did myself.

I AM A TEACHER

Just because someone does not agree with you does not mean they don't know what they are talking about. It is no wonder a certain percentage dislike us if a response like that is what they get for having a varied opinion

TheDriver

ah lads, can we stop bickering about hl vs ol, every subject is different but most importantly if we don't pull together and get over our differences, what hope is there for fighting our unfair employer

Melanoma

seavill wrote: »

I can say the same for DCG, my subjects HL and OL could not be more unlike. There is barely any overlap at all, the two courses could not be more removed from each other as my HL section are finding out, yet we must get on with it as that is the way the resources are available.

My point was originally in relation to the first statement, these government decisions will not lead to no honours maths across the country or no engineers and scientists. The person clarified that the students in their school were on the border of OL as it was, they would most likely not be able for engineering anyway. My point was a situation in very small schools is not reflective of the country as a whole and just because there is not an individual HL class does not mean there won't still be students doing HL. Of course there will be like with all other subjects. The point although may be relevant in that individual school is not reflective of the overall country, and again my point being that if this was my reaction to it just imagine the responses statements like that will get from the general public.



I AM A TEACHER

Just because someone does not agree with you does not mean they don't know what they are talking about. It is no wonder a certain percentage dislike us if a response like that is what they get for having a varied opinion

Your wrong to say the students I have are marginal so they are different to normal classes. They are not going to get A's and its a struggle to get them to the point where you are able to say they won't fail it. They are getting there just in case you decide to jump on this point. There are always kids like that in every class.

I can teach Physics at both levels in the same class as I said before. That is easy. You could only manage some very capable ordinary level students that could work away while you explore beyond their grasp. The students are already about a year ahead of the ordinary level kids after the J.C. If you were teaching the ordinary level class then the honours group would be learning nothing. The course is incredibly difficult to cover over the two years.

So I stand over what I said I was referring to my class, but its not unique in the smaller schools. The minimum requirement to get into a University college is a C in honours. A bigger school actually only had two take up honours this year and they still ran it but not every school will or can.

This feels like your going over the post with a fine comb and trying to see if there is something that can be argued about??

seavill

My last response to you was that I was a teacher you were indicating I wasn't and was making points about things I didn't know about.

Instead of persisting with dragging it off topic I won't be responding to any of the above points as it is irrelevant to the thread so we will leave it there you can pm me if you wish instead

teacherhead

Aaaanyway.

Did anyone attend any of the union meetings around the place?

Heading to the dub one this evening, I'll report back later or in morning

acequion

TheDriver wrote: »

ah lads, can we stop bickering about hl vs ol, every subject is different but most importantly if we don't pull together and get over our differences, what hope is there for fighting our unfair employer

Completely agree. The job is really hard and fraught with all sorts of complications,everyone inside teaching knows that.

So. let's focus on unity!

Lord TSC

SIPTU have recommended a yay vote. Devastated by that

doc_17

Are the special needs assistants members of SIPTU?

TheDriver

nope, IMPACT however SNAs think they have no cutbacks but I am wondering does the extra 5 hour week affect SNAs because they are not mentioned as being exempt.
I thought SIPTU didn't receommend a YES but more hopes people take the protection of the agreement?? (whatever protection that is when Govt is back next year....)

whiteandlight

Actually rte saying siptu will campaign for a yes vote but declined to recommend acceptance. Sounds like they are unsure of their members so don't want to lose following a recommendation

Lord TSC

Musicmental85 wrote: »

Actually rte saying siptu will campaign for a yes vote but declined to recommend acceptance. Sounds like they are unsure of their members so don't want to lose following a recommendation

I don't get that. Isn't that a contradiction? They'll campaign for a yes vote but aren't recommending it? Huh? Or am I being an idiot here....

whiteandlight

I thought so too. Husband reckons that they won't recommend a yes because they are afraid their membership will vote no and they'll look ridiculous. This way they've fudged it enough they can claim they were right either way

Rabidlamb

Sorry, wife's a teacher, so I've an interest in this discussion.

Apparently SIPTU are recommending a Yes vote rather than have Labour politicians be seen ramming through PS pay cuts in the Dail which would be political suicide for many of them.
Socialist have to look out for one another.

The union sub will be the first thing cut in our household once this is all said & done.

doc_17

Hearing people saying that they will cut their union sub and leave it is exactly what the government want to hear. The divide and conquer approach is paying dividends for them.

If they weaken the unions, they will impose ever more stringent and harsher cuts. We only saw this weekend with the bailout of Cyprus what happens when you negotiate from a weakened position

Powerhouse

Rabidlamb wrote: »

The union sub will be the first thing cut in our household once this is all said & done.

In fairness, you can't be doing to badly if the union sub is the first thing to go. I look back wistfully on the days when I was able to shell out on health insurance and was able to tax the car for an entire 12 months at the one go.

doc_17

Oh no......reminds me that my car tax of €720 is due at the end of the month. Whether it'll all be paid is another matter

acequion

Workers can hardly pay their basic bills and yet the Government thinks further austerity is the way to go!

And that idiot Enda Kenny thinks he'll make Ireland the best little country in the world by 2016! Breathtaking how far removed these guys are from reality.

teacherhead

All we can do really is try to garner as much support for the no vote as we can. There seems to be a strong no element in the INTO.

I think we need to try convince as many members of other unions as possible to reject this proposal, to have a real chance of defeating it in congress.

newfrontier

Just wondering how the numbers are adding up at the moment ? I think it will be close but has anyone done any research they would like to share?

RealJohn

Couldn't say how it'll actually go but everyone I work with says they're voting no. Pretty small staff though.

TheDriver

I am either hearing a no vote or I don't care and not going to vote......

Miss Lockhart

I'm voting no but majority on staff voting yes.

joebloggs32

Strong no vote where I work I'd say

km79

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

I'm voting no but majority on staff voting yes.

Out of interest what's their reasoning and age profile/employment status ?

Juniorhurler

No in our place it would seem

Benicetomonty

I expect a no vote in my place.

teacherhead

NO here in my school too.

I see the catholic schools management body has raised concern over CP2 - Only for the INTO to ruch to its' defence!!

Christ almighty, anyone would think they were on a backhander

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0319/377371-primary-school-managers-outline-croke-park-concern/

Darwin

Yep, Sheila Nunan (INTO) sits on the executive council of ICTU. Draw your own conclusions about this shower.

Miss Lockhart

km79 wrote: »

Out of interest what's their reasoning and age profile/employment status ?

They are mostly between 35 and 45. Many years from being affected by the cuts at the top and not worried about the knock on effects on subbing. All I'm hearing is that it's the best we will get and who knows how much worse it could be if the government legislate.

teacherhead

Darwin wrote: »

Yep, Sheila Nunan (INTO) sits on the executive council of ICTU. Draw your own conclusions about this shower.

Oh theres no doubt in my mind that the 65k figure leaves most siptu, impact and into members safe enough, it didn't fall from the sky.

Then theres the lump sum arrangements for the people who will jump ship soon to cajole them into a yes vote. The whole thing stinks.

The other teacher unions were not part of the negotiations but rather attended briefings from des officials. According to tui these were not discussions, dept officials landed in, read a script and left. The INTO were at the table. I dont say thus to question the motives of INTO members but I wonder about the leadership. They seem to be a government mouthpiece at the moment.

gagiteebo

The majority of staff in my school are voting no. One or two have said they will vote yes. I am curious as to their reasoning so I asked one guy would he mind telling me why he was voting yes. He said there will be no paycuts for anyone under 60,000 and that in the long run we will really pay for voting no. He said s and s will be going anyway and the extra hours...

teacherhead

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

They are mostly between 35 and 45. Many years from being affected by the cuts at the top and not worried about the knock on effects on subbing. All I'm hearing is that it's the best we will get and who knows how much worse it could be if the government legislate.

It's funny, most staff in my school are under 40 nobody will be affected by pay cut except maybe 3 APost holders and the principal and deputy.

I have only spoken to one out of approx 35 who has anything positive toast about croke park. People are appalled at the detail deep down.

This is more than a pay cut, this is big and it will hang over people for the rest of their careers.

I see a very active Facebook campaign called voice for teachers and another teachers talk back. There is considerable support for a no vote in INTO it seems.

km79

teacherhead wrote: »

It's funny, most staff in my school are under 40 nobody will be affected by pay cut except maybe 3 APost holders and the principal and deputy.

I have only spoken to one out of approx 35 who has anything positive toast about croke park. People are appalled at the detail deep down.

This is more than a pay cut, this is big and it will hang over people for the rest of their careers.

I see a very active Facebook campaign called voice for teachers and another teachers talk back. There is considerable support for a no vote in INTO it seems.

That was what I was expecting . I am more or less in that category and my first reaction was exactly that. It could have been worse. But my mind has been changed completely having read up on it and listening to people's reasoning on here. The problem is a lot of "yes" people have not bothered to read the document at all .....

teacherhead

km79 wrote: »

That was what I was expecting . I am more or less in that category and my first reaction was exactly that. It could have been worse. But my mind has been changed completely having read up on it and listening to people's reasoning on here. The problem is a lot of "yes" people have not bothered to read the document at all .....

Read it to them, for your own sake if not for theirs

km79

teacherhead wrote: »

Read it to them, for your own sake if not for theirs

I have talked a good few of those I know well enough around !