Would you wear an Easter Lily?

OCorcrainn

Hunterbiker wrote: »

True. I didn't mean to suggest all of them were subjected to poor treatment by republicans just theones that weren't Republicans...

A sizeable amount of the Irish men who fought in WW1 were from the National Volunteers (142,000) who before the split were in the Irish Volunteers. The Irish Volunteers were Irish nationalists/republicans.

Iwasfrozen

My name is URL wrote: »

And how many British soldiers have been found guilty of murder and torture and other human rights abuses over the years? But yeah.. funny how it's only seen as 'honouring terrorists' when it suits you.

The Poppy doesn't just represent the good of British military history... there's a whole shitload of bad in there too.

The poppy doesn't represent the British alone, it represents all those who have died in war since 1914.

OCorcrainn

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The poppy doesn't represent the British alone, it represents all those who have died in war since 1914.

Which poppy are you referring to?

Nodin

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The poppy doesn't represent the British alone, it represents all those who have died in war since 1914.

....where does the money go?

Iwasfrozen

Crooked Jack wrote: »

1 - What a blatant straw man. You even quoted my post but still said it. Jesus. Anyway, as anyone with the ability to read can see I clearly said joining the British Army makes you a British soldier. Are you really disputing that?

I do dispute your assertion that no Irish soldiers fought in ww1. Plenty did. And many of them died.

Crooked Jack wrote: »

2 - This is not America. Poppies in Britain and Ireland are distributed by the Royal British Legion, their meaning and where the proceeds go is quite explicit.

Then do what the Americans did and make your own, sell them and put the money towards the Irish armed forces retirement fund. My counter example is only being used to show that the poppy is not a British symbol. It's international.

Crooked Jack wrote: »

3 - No it is not, particularly not here. see point number two above.

Yes, yes it is. The British selling poppies does not make it a British symbol. I really don't understand your mentality.

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Setting aside your ridiculous terrorist jibe, I have no issue with you not wearing a lily. Thankfully the Easter Lily hasnt become associated with the type of poppy fascism seen in Britain and the north.
Looking around the streets of our fair capital the vast majority of people agree with me on the poppy.
I also dont know when or where you've been looking but I've seen plenty of lilies in Dublin in the past

That's funny, I've been living here for three years and have yet to see a single one. I haven't seen any worn in the country either. I see nothing wrong with calling a spade a spade, the IRA were terrorists. That's indisputable.

Iwasfrozen

Nodin wrote: »

....where does the money go?

The one's the British sell? Towards the British armed forces of course. The Americans sell them too and they go towards the American armed forces. Why don't you make some, sell them and put the money towards our armed forces? That way you can express your nationalism without condoning terrorism. Everyone wins.

dlofnep

I always wear one. If for nothing more, to show a mark of respect for people who gave up their lives for our independence.

It sounds like a cliché, but when you really analyse it - To give up your life for a cause or a principle is one of the most selfless acts a person can do. If someone can die for our betterment, then the least I can do is honour their death.

I would say that someone doesn't have to wear a Lily to honour them. People can do it in their own way, or not do it at all. I wouldn't judge anyone for not wearing it, or for wearing it. It's a personal choice for me.

Hunterbiker

OCorcrainn wrote: »

A sizeable amount of the Irish men who fought in WW1 were from the National Volunteers (142,000) who before the split were in the Irish Volunteers. The Irish Volunteers were Irish nationalists/republicans.

But that highlights how complex this phase of Irish History is. People need to be very careful in using words like Republican and Nationalist as it is easy for others to get a different meaning to the one intended. My bad there.

My earlier post was just suggesting that it's highly likely that many of those veterans returned and faced hostility. I highlighted hostility of certain Republican groups towards veterans who held a differibg view but equally veterans who joined certain Republican groups faced hostility too.

That whole period was a maelstrom of emotion.

Vicar in a tutu

I'll be wearing it, Im Irish and would be proud to wear a small symbol to honour Irelands patriot dead.

OCorcrainn

IwasFrozen

You still have not answered my question, is it the White or Red Poppy you are referring to?

Iwasfrozen

wolfpawnat wrote: »

And I never disputed that, I just said I did not like it because of who it also represented that I personally do not agree with.

That's fine you're perfectly capable of deciding what you do and don't agree with in this day and age. No one is going to force their beliefs on you, you may get funny looks if you walk down the street with a white lily pinned to your jacket but that's to be expected considering what it represents.

wolfpawnat wrote: »

The poppy is not our national symbol either, the Lily was designed by a woman who lost two of her sons in the Civil War, so like the Poppy, it's beginnings were different to it's general assumption today.

Unfortunately it was hi jacked by IRA terrorists but even at it's conception the lily commemorated armed rebellion against the state to get what you want. Violence is never the alternative to peace and that's what this lily represents.

wolfpawnat wrote: »

And they were retaliating to the acts of terrorism that were inflicted on them. They fought fire with fire, so if one side is guilty of terrorism, then surely the other is too?

Of course. A lot of the time the British army were just as bad as the IRA but the poppy does not represent the British alone.

Iwasfrozen

OCorcrainn wrote: »

IwasFrozen

You still have not answered my question, is it the White or Red Poppy you are referring to?

Sorry missed it, I'm referring to the red poppy but I can't speak for others.

Hunterbiker

As an aside there is a poem, often recited around November that mentiobs poppies. It's called In Flanders Fields. It was written by a Canadian...

Nodin

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The one's the British sell? Towards the British armed forces of course. The Americans sell them too and they go towards the American armed forces. Why don't you make some, sell them and put the money towards our armed forces? That way you can express your nationalism without condoning terrorism. Everyone wins.

Well, seeing as the Poppy funds over here goes towards the British Royal Legion, it can't be claimed as honouring all the dead, can it? And seeing as the money goes towards living troops, its rather more than remembering the dead, isn't it?

gallag

An gonna bring this whole system crashing down and wear a red lilly. Others might not give a fuk.

OCorcrainn

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Sorry missed it, I'm referring to the red poppy but I can't speak for others.

No problem but why do you wear the red rather than the white poppy?

Iwasfrozen

Nodin wrote: »

Well, seeing as the Poppy funds over here goes towards the British Royal Legion, it can't be claimed as honouring all the dead, can it? And seeing as the money goes towards living troops, its rather more than remembering the dead, isn't it?

Only the ones sold by the British go towards the British armed forces. The only thing stopping the Irish army doing the same is the intolerance of some Irish people.

OCorcrainn wrote: »

No problem but why do you wear the red rather than the white poppy?

I don't wear either.

Crooked Jack

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The poppy doesn't represent the British alone, it represents all those who have died in war since 1914.

No it doesnt, you can repeat this all you want but it's a lie.
The poppy supplied by the Royal british Legion commemorates all british soldiers from 1914 onwards and the money raised from it goes to british soldiers today.

Iwasfrozen

Crooked Jack wrote: »

No it doesnt, you can repeat this all you want but it's a lie.
The poppy supplied by the Royal british Legion commemorates all british soldiers from 1914 onwards and the money raised from it goes to british soldiers today.

Only the ones sold by the British go towards the British armed forces. The only thing stopping the Irish army doing the same is the intolerance of some Irish people.

Crooked Jack

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Violence is never the alternative to peace and that's what this lily represents.

And yet you staunchly defend the poppy.

Iwasfrozen

Crooked Jack wrote: »

And yet you staunchly defend the poppy.

Don't get me wrong I'd never wear a poppy, we just have to be clear that it is not a British symbol. Until we do any discussion on it is meaningless.

Nodin

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Only the ones sold by the British go towards the British armed forces. The only thing stopping the Irish army doing the same is the intolerance of some Irish people.

Whether the Irish army sell them or not is irrrelevant. The ones sold here are from the British Royal Legion.

Crooked Jack

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Only the ones sold by the British go towards the British armed forces. The only thing stopping the Irish army doing the same is the intolerance of some Irish people.

Exactly. The canadians or yanks arent over here selling them. The only way to get one in Ireland is through the Royal British Legion. These poppies have Royal british Legion stamped on them and the money from them goes to britain's current crop of cannon fodder fools.
The poppy is a british symbol. I dont care what it is in america, that has nothing to do with here.

The reason the Irish army doesnt sell it is because it is a foreign symbol. Also, as you say, it originated in world war one, a fight the Irish army was not involved in

Jarrod

OCorcrainn wrote: »

I will reiterate as some people here are clueless or are just refusing to accept the facts about the poppy.



But by all means wear the White Poppy, which is supposed to symbolize peace just don't wear the red one.

Why not?

Iwasfrozen

Nodin wrote: »

Whether the Irish army sell them or not is irrrelevant. The ones sold here are from the British Royal Legion.

Only the ones sold by the British are from the British royal legion, nothing is stopping you making your own and selling them for the Irish army. The British do not have a monopoly on the symbol, unlike the IRA and the lily.

Crooked Jack

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Don't get me wrong I'd never wear a poppy, we just have to be clear that it is not a British symbol. Until we do any discussion on it is meaningless.

This discussion is supposed to be about the lily, not the poppy, which, when sold in Britain or Ireland, is a British symbol commemorating past british soldiers from all conflicts and supporting current ones.

Madam

I've lived in Scotland most of my life and I have never associated the lily with the IRA - do the likes of Gerry Adams et al wear one?

Iwasfrozen

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Exactly. The canadians or yanks arent over here selling them. The only way to get one in Ireland is through the Royal British Legion. These poppies have Royal british Legion stamped on them and the money from them goes to britain's current crop of cannon fodder fools.
The poppy is a british symbol. I dont care what it is in america, that has nothing to do with here.

The reason the Irish army doesnt sell it is because it is a foreign symbol. Also, as you say, it originated in world war one, a fight the Irish army was not involved in

Just because the British sell them doesn't make them British. Other countries use the symbol too so it can't be British. I also find your talk of the British army as distasteful to say the least. I doubt you'd talk that way about the French or Spanish armed forces. Just reminds me we have a lot of growing up to do as a nation.

Crooked Jack wrote: »

This discussion is supposed to be about the lily, not the poppy, which, when sold in Britain or Ireland, is a British symbol commemorating past british soldiers from all conflicts and supporting current ones.

Interesting how an international symbol changes meaning when sold in Ireland to your eyes. Here's a question. What if I made poppies, sold them and donated the money to the Irish armed forces. How would you view the poppy? It obviously isn't a British symbol then. Would you wear one? What if I stamped a republican symbol on it?

Crooked Jack

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Only the ones sold by the British are from the British royal legion, nothing is stopping you making your own and selling them for the Irish army. The British do not have a monopoly on the symbol, unlike the IRA and the lily.

Yes they do, it's in the bloody links i put up.

The Legion holds a fund-raising drive each year in the weeks before Remembrance Sunday, during which artificial red poppies, meant to be worn on clothing, are offered to the public in return for a donation to the Legion. According to the Legion, "The red poppy is our registered mark and its only lawful use is to raise funds for the Poppy Appeal".[2] The poppies are manufactured at the Poppy Factory in Richmond.

Bloody*Mary

Crooked Jack wrote: »

I did a story on it about two or three years ago and the proceeds of any official lilies bought go to the National Graves Association (www.nga.ie)
I'm trying to find a more recent link but here's the first one I found. It's the launch of Sinn Fein's 2011 Easter Lily campaign and it was launched in conjunction with people from the NGA. Gerry Kelly also urges people to support the work of the NGA in it.

http://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/20443

It's just common sense. If you're buying it from Sinn Fein or an authorised seller, that's where it goes, but if you throw a quid in a bucket for one at and anti-PSNI white line picket it's probably going elsewhere.

What part of 'not interested' do you not understand?

Crooked Jack

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Interesting how an international symbol changes meaning when sold in Ireland to your eyes. Here's a question. What if I made poppies, sold them and donated the money to the Irish armed forces. How would you view the poppy? It obviously isn't a British symbol then. Would you wear one? What if I stamped a republican symbol on it?

see post 131 for the problem with that

Iwasfrozen

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Yes they do, it's in the bloody links i put up.

I've already put up that American quote twice, don't make me put it up again because I will I swear!

Crooked Jack wrote: »

see post 131 for the problem with that

Let them sue me. Is that trademark legal in Ireland?

Crooked Jack

Bloody*Mary wrote: »

What part of 'not interested' do you not understand?

What? I dont get it?

Crooked Jack

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I've already put up that American quote twice, don't make me put it up again because I will I swear!


Let them sue me.

It's a british legion copyright. You're just ignoring the facts now so there's no point in arguing with you.
The american poppy is made by a different organisation for a different purpose.
It has nothing to do with the one seen here.

Iwasfrozen

Crooked Jack wrote: »

It's a british legion copyright. You're just ignoring the facts now so there's no point in arguing with you.
The american poppy is made by a different organisation for a different purpose.
It has nothing to do with the one seen here.

Here is not Britain though. If the Americans can make them it leads me to think the trademark is only valid in the UK. Which doesn't invalidate my earlier point about making poppies and selling them for other causes.

wolfpawnat

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

That's fine you're perfectly capable of deciding what you do and don't agree with in this day and age. No one is going to force their beliefs on you, you may get funny looks if you walk down the street with a white lily pinned to your jacket but that's to be expected considering what it represents.

I wear it and I have gotten a few comments, to which I respond in an adult manner and show I actually know what it truly represents and that I am not just some "RA Head" and that I am in no way affiliated with any republican group or even a political party, that usually disarms them and their bigoted arguments in moments.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Unfortunately it was hi jacked by IRA terrorists but even at it's conception the lily commemorated armed rebellion against the state to get what you want. Violence is never the alternative to peace and that's what this lily represents.

Actually the lily was designed by a mother who lost two sons to British soldiers fighting for freedom in the War of Independence. There was no terrorism, that is recognised as a legitimate war, therefore they were not terrorists. The IRA was the legitimate army of the Irish fighters at that time. The lily represents innocent people who died as a result of our conflict with Britain too, not just those who were actively fighting. Would you call John, Anna, Anne-Marie and Jacqueline O'Brien of the Dublin and Monaghan Bombings of 1974 "terrorists" please note Anne Marie was 1 and Jacqueline was a newborn. The lily represents them just as much as it represents James Connolly and Cathal Brugha.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Of course. A lot of the time the British army were just as bad as the IRA but the poppy does not represent the British alone.

But it is pretty much the only country that rams the damn thing down everyone's throats. As I said, it is one thing for a person to wear a poppy, off with them, there are as entitled to their symbols as I am mine, neither is a Swatzika. I do not approve of the attitude that is held regarding forcing the likes of X-factor competitors to wear it. One year there was a lad from the 6 counties on it and he had to admit that he was told he would be disqualified were he not to wear the thing. That is, as I explained, ramming your (not referring to you personally obviously) idea down another's throat.

Death and Taxes

OCorcrainn wrote: »

It is not just used to commerate 1916, read the rest of the OP and you would have seen that.

It is synomamous with the events of Easter 1916, I hardly think anyone other than yourself would accept the IRA lilly represents the dead Irish of WW1, WW2, or the UN. Indeed having spoken to a member of the Irish Ex Servicemens organization he tells me the his organization (ONE) have nothing to do with Easter lillys.

OCorcrainn

WileyCoyote wrote: »

It is synomamous with the events of Easter 1916

It is not mutually inclusive with Easter 1916.

WileyCoyote wrote: »

I hardly think anyone other than yourself would accept the IRA lilly represents the dead Irish of WW1, WW2, or the UN.

Wrong again. Also,very mature use of Easter Lily there, anyway everyone knows how hysterical and theatrical you are, your posts do provide lighthearted amusement for many people.

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Indeed having spoken to a member of the Irish Ex Servicemens organization he tells me the his organization (ONE) have nothing to do with Easter lillys.

And I know ex-servicemen (officers) who wear the Easter Lily. So your anecdotal "evidence" is invalid.

Run along now.

Galwayguy35

wolfpawnat wrote: »

That poppy also commemorates those who came to Ireland and killed our innocent civilians, I wouldn't spit on it, it would be a waste of saliva.

The Lily was designed for EVERYONE who died for Ireland, including our World War dead. I am happy to remember those brave men/women with it too.

+1

Fratton Fred

Crooked Jack wrote: »

It's kind of understandable though. These people returned home in British uniforms to a populace that had watched the British army sack Dublin, hack civilians to bits and then execute the leaders of the rising.

Republicanism was on the rise and there was a strong anti-british sentiment in the country.
Most people would not have been happy about a proud British soldier moving in next door

In 1918 the majority of people supported unionist or home rule parties.

Death and Taxes

OCorcrainn wrote: »

It is not mutually inclusive with Easter 1916.



Wrong again. Also,very mature use of Easter Lily there, anyway everyone knows how hysterical and theatrical you are, your posts do provide lighthearted amusement for many people.




And I know ex-servicemen (officers) who wear the Easter Lily. So your anecdotal "evidence" is invalid.

Run along now.

It is an IRA fund raiser which has nothing to do with the dead Irish of WW1 or WW2 and which the Organization of ex Servicemen want nothing to do with.
I wont be told to run along by any mouthpiece for thos who blew up kids in Warrington or the unborn in Omagh, run along yourself boy!

Galwayguy35

Fratton Fred wrote: »

In 1918 the majority of people supported unionist or home rule parties.

Wrong, in the 1918 election Sinn Fein won the largest share of the vote.

You need to brush up in our countries history.

Fratton Fred

wolfpawnat wrote: »

I wear it and I have gotten a few comments, to which I respond in an adult manner and show I actually know what it truly represents and that I am not just some "RA Head" and that I am in no way affiliated with any republican group or even a political party, that usually disarms them and their bigoted arguments in moments.





Actually the lily was designed by a mother who lost two sons to British soldiers fighting for freedom in the War of Independence. There was no terrorism, that is recognised as a legitimate war, therefore they were not terrorists. The IRA was the legitimate army of the Irish fighters at that time. The lily represents innocent people who died as a result of our conflict with Britain too, not just those who were actively fighting. Would you call John, Anna, Anne-Marie and Jacqueline O'Brien of the Dublin and Monaghan Bombings of 1974 "terrorists" please note Anne Marie was 1 and Jacqueline was a newborn. The lily represents them just as much as it represents James Connolly and Cathal Brugha.





But it is pretty much the only country that rams the damn thing down everyone's throats. As I said, it is one thing for a person to wear a poppy, off with them, there are as entitled to their symbols as I am mine, neither is a Swatzika. I do not approve of the attitude that is held regarding forcing the likes of X-factor competitors to wear it. One year there was a lad from the 6 counties on it and he had to admit that he was told he would be disqualified were he not to wear the thing. That is, as I explained, ramming your (not referring to you personally obviously) idea down another's throat.

Now you are getting your poppies confused.

On the x factor they usually wear a cloth poppy, not a RBL one. There is a huge difference.

Nodin

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Here is not Britain though. If the Americans can make them it leads me to think the trademark is only valid in the UK. Which doesn't invalidate my earlier point about making poppies and selling them for other causes.

.....the potential making of poppies is irrelevant, because we are talking about the poppy thats sold here now.

Fratton Fred

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Wrong, in the 1918 election Sinn Fein won the largest share of the vote.

You need to brush up in our countries history.

No, they won the most seats, but only 47% of the vote.

Iwasfrozen

wolfpawnat wrote: »

I wear it and I have gotten a few comments, to which I respond in an adult manner and show I actually know what it truly represents and that I am not just some "RA Head" and that I am in no way affiliated with any republican group or even a political party, that usually disarms them and their bigoted arguments in moments.

That may be the ideal but there is a reason every mainstream party in Ireland refuses to wear the lily, it's become synonymous with IRA terrorist activity, with killing innocents and using violence to achieve your political goals. Again I have no wish to force my views on anyone, I'd never challenge someone for wearing a lily because that's just a dickish thing to do but I'd never wear one myself. I don't believe in violent insurrection against the state to get what you want.

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Actually the lily was designed by a mother who lost two sons to British soldiers fighting for freedom in the War of Independence. There was no terrorism, that is recognised as a legitimate war, therefore they were not terrorists. The IRA was the legitimate army of the Irish fighters at that time. The lily represents innocent people who died as a result of our conflict with Britain too, not just those who were actively fighting. Would you call John, Anna, Anne-Marie and Jacqueline O'Brien of the Dublin and Monaghan Bombings of 1974 "terrorists" please note Anne Marie was 1 and Jacqueline was a newborn. The lily represents them just as much as it represents James Connolly and Cathal Brugha.

And that would be fine if the lily stopped in 1918 but it hasn't it continued on to this present day and is associated with terrorists who committed the same type of atrocities as the Dublin-Monaghan bombings you mention. That's not even mentioning Cathal Brugha himself was associated with a very shady war, I wouldn't put him in the same sentence as two little girls.

wolfpawnat wrote: »

But it is pretty much the only country that rams the damn thing down everyone's throats. As I said, it is one thing for a person to wear a poppy, off with them, there are as entitled to their symbols as I am mine, neither is a Swatzika. I do not approve of the attitude that is held regarding forcing the likes of X-factor competitors to wear it. One year there was a lad from the 6 counties on it and he had to admit that he was told he would be disqualified were he not to wear the thing. That is, as I explained, ramming your (not referring to you personally obviously) idea down another's throat.

I don't agree with that, it should be freedom of choice.

philologos

I'm not very patriotic so no. I was born in Ireland it was a hood place to grow up in but the truth is if God willed it I could have been born in Botswana.

Iwasfrozen

Nodin wrote: »

.....the potential making of poppies is irrelevant, because we are talking about the poppy thats sold here now.

1. You say the poppy is a British symbol.
2. I point out it's sold in other countries.
3. You say "oh well that doesn't matter because we're only talking about Ireland".
4. I use conditional tense to point out this logical fallacy.
5. You try to invalidate the conditional tense by saying it isn't happening.
6. -_-

Nodin

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

1. You say the poppy is a British symbol.
2. I point out it's sold in other countries.
3. You say "oh well that doesn't matter because we're only talking about Ireland".
4. I use conditional tense to point out this logical fallacy.
5. You try to invalidate the conditional tense by saying it isn't happening.
6. -_-

The poppy sold here is produced by the Royal British Legion, and its funds go exclusively towards a charity for British Army veterans. Thus its effectively a British symbol.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

That may be the ideal but there is a reason every mainstream party in Ireland refuses to wear the lily, it's become synonymous with IRA terrorist activity, with killing innocents and using violence to achieve your political goals. Again I have no wish to force my views on anyone, I'd never challenge someone for wearing a lily because that's just a dickish thing to do but I'd never wear one myself. I don't believe in violent insurrection against the state to get what you want.

Yet when November rolls around, I doubt we'll see you decrying the poppy for funding the Veterans of Iraq, Kenya, Cyprus and Northern Ireland.

Galwayguy35

Fratton Fred wrote: »

No, they won the most seats, but only 47% of the vote.

Yes, 47% for one party that was looking for independance, a clear signal nearly half the population felt this was what they wanted, not Home Rule.