Would you wear an Easter Lily?

HoggyRS

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

That may be the ideal but there is a reason every mainstream party in Ireland refuses to wear the lily, it's become synonymous with IRA terrorist activity, with killing innocents and using violence to achieve your political goals. Again I have no wish to force my views on anyone, I'd never challenge someone for wearing a lily because that's just a dickish thing to do but I'd never wear one myself. I don't believe in violent insurrection against the state to get what you want.

The third most popular political party in this country at the moment actively sell the Easter Lilly.

I'll be wearing the easter lilly with pride this year.

Happyman42

WileyCoyote wrote: »

It is synomamous with the events of Easter 1916, I hardly think anyone other than yourself would accept the IRA lilly represents the dead Irish of WW1, WW2, or the UN. Indeed having spoken to a member of the Irish Ex Servicemens organization he tells me the his organization (ONE) have nothing to do with Easter lillys.

Is that 'Irish ex British Servicemen' or 'Ex Irish Servicemen'?

Odysseus

Crooked Jack wrote: »

I did a story on it about two or three years ago and the proceeds of any official lilies bought go to the National Graves Association (www.nga.ie)
I'm trying to find a more recent link but here's the first one I found. It's the launch of Sinn Fein's 2011 Easter Lily campaign and it was launched in conjunction with people from the NGA. Gerry Kelly also urges people to support the work of the NGA in it.

http://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/20443

It's just common sense. If you're buying it from Sinn Fein or an authorised seller, that's where it goes, but if you throw a quid in a bucket for one at and anti-PSNI white line picket it's probably going elsewhere.

I don't have time to check it out now, but thanks for your response.

As stated I'm a believer in respecting our history and would proudly wear one, once I know the cash is not going to arm others to keep a conflict going.

wolfpawnat

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Now you are getting your poppies confused.

On the x factor they usually wear a cloth poppy, not a RBL one. There is a huge difference.

As I do not have anything to do with the red poppy, I would not know anything about it. I gather from your post that like the lily, there are different ones. I would put my support to the white one were I to find one being sold.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

That may be the ideal but there is a reason every mainstream party in Ireland refuses to wear the lily, it's become synonymous with IRA terrorist activity, with killing innocents and using violence to achieve your political goals. Again I have no wish to force my views on anyone, I'd never challenge someone for wearing a lily because that's just a dickish thing to do but I'd never wear one myself. I don't believe in violent insurrection against the state to get what you want.

Yes I see it as a rebellion against a foreign force. Difference of opinion there but that is the great thing about freedom to make up our own minds I too have never force my opinion on anyone and have never said anything to a person wearing the poppy, not my cup of tea, but to each their own.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

And that would be fine if the lily stopped in 1918 but it hasn't it continued on to this present day and is associated with terrorists who committed the same type of atrocities as the Dublin-Monaghan bombings you mention. That's not even mentioning Cathal Brugha himself was associated with a very shady war, I wouldn't put him in the same sentence as two little girls.

I feel the same way about the poppy. Until 1918 would have been fine with me, but they continued it on to include the likes of the men who shot dead 14 unarmed innocent civilians in the Bogside. I have always condemned the killing of any innocent civilian, regardless of their allegiance. Omagh is as bad as D&M, which in turn is as bad as Bloody Sunday 1972, which is as bad as the Guildford Pub bombing.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I don't agree with that, it should be freedom of choice.

And you have the right to. But as you think I am wrong, I so think you are, and the great thing with a discussion forum is that we can both argue our opinions on this matter. Doesn't mean if we were to discuss another topic, we would not agree on that Would you not agree?

Chuck Stone

There's too much glorification of conflict and death associated with commemoration symbols so I wouldn't wear one.

I think symbols such as the lilly and poppy divert attention from the fact that the people being commemorated died because of the failure of their peers, leaders, representatives, oppressors and exploiters to sit down and sort their shit out without pointing guns at each other.

wolfpawnat

Can I ask who here, though they would not wear the lily would go to a state commemoration held on Easter Sunday every year? The official state one now, not any other one.

Iwasfrozen

HoggyRS wrote: »

The third most popular political party in this country at the moment actively sell the Easter Lilly.

I'll be wearing the easter lilly with pride this year.

Fianna Fail sell easter lilies? That's a new one on me. Good luck to you, I just won't be joining you.

wolfpawnat

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Fianna Fail sell easter lilies? That's a new one on me. Good luck to you, I just won't be joining you.

He/She is probably refering to the Red C poll the other day which shows, they are now the most popular in the country (since they are not in power), then FG, then SF, then Labour.

Iwasfrozen

Nodin wrote: »

The poppy sold here is produced by the Royal British Legion, and its funds go exclusively towards a charity for British Army veterans. Thus its effectively a British symbol.

I'm going to ask you the same thing I asked Jack.
"What if I made poppies, sold them and donated the money to the Irish armed forces. How would you view the poppy? It obviously isn't a British symbol then. Would you wear one? What if I stamped a republican symbol on it? "

Nodin wrote: »

Yet when November rolls around, I doubt we'll see you decrying the poppy for funding the Veterans of Iraq, Kenya, Cyprus and Northern Ireland.

If the British legion starts to fund paramilitaries you can be dammed sure I'll decry them.

wolfpawnat wrote: »

He/She is probably refering to the Red C poll the other day which shows, they are now the most popular in the country (since they are not in power), then FG, then SF, then Labour.

I know I guessed that too since SF are the only party that supports the lily. I just wanted to screw with him. :P

Chuck Stone

wolfpawnat wrote: »

who here would go to a state commemoration held on Easter Sunday every year? The official state one now, not any other one.

I wouldn't feel any great desire to be shown to be commemorating the dead at an official ceremony.

It's a private matter for me.

My name is URL

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Can I ask who here, though they would not wear the lily would go to a state commemoration held on Easter Sunday every year? The official state one now, not any other one.

I've been to a few over the years, mainly because other family members wanted me to go. I had relatives who fought and died during the Easter Rising. Also had one who fought with the British in Somme! Never felt compelled to wear any pin as a mark of respect though.

Iwasfrozen

wolfpawnat wrote: »

And you have the right to. But as you think I am wrong, I so think you are, and the great thing with a discussion forum is that we can both argue our opinions on this matter. Doesn't mean if we were to discuss another topic, we would not agree on that Would you not agree?

No, I never agree! lol I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one Wolf.

Nodin

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I'm going to ask you the same thing I asked Jack.
"What if I made poppies, sold them and donated the money to the Irish armed forces. How would you view the poppy? It obviously isn't a British symbol then. Would you wear one? What if I stamped a republican symbol on it? "

What would this new poppy commemorate?

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

If the British legion starts to fund paramilitaries you can be dammed sure I'll decry them.

So massacres in Mayalasia, systematic brutality in Kenya, illegal war in Iraq doesn't register on your radar?

Iwasfrozen

Nodin wrote: »

What would this new poppy commemorate?

The same thing all the other poppies commemorate, those who died in armed conflict from 1914 onwards.

Nodin wrote: »

So massacres in Mayalasia, systematic brutality in Kenya, illegal war in Iraq doesn't register on your radar?

I wasn't aware the poppy commemorated massacres. Thank you for enlightening me, someone should tell Simon Cowell. Here I was thinking all this time the poppy commemorated soldiers who died in battle, ordinary joe soaps who fought and died for their country rather then the top brass who led them. Well thank you for changing my ways, I'm a true and true pinhead chucky now.

Happyman42

I'm loving the music of the 'hypocrite squirm'

lockon...

OCorcrainn wrote: »

Note: The money does not go into 'prisoner funds' or Sinn Féin's pockets, it goes towards preserving graves and memorials for those who died.

Well the money is not going into their accounts thats for sure.

wolfpawnat

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I wouldn't feel any great desire to be shown to be commemorating the dead at an official ceremony.

It's a private matter for me.

Fair enough, to each their own

My name is URL wrote: »

I've been to a few over the years, mainly because other family members wanted me to go. I had relatives who fought and died during the Easter Rising. Also had one who fought with the British in Somme! Never felt compelled to wear any pin as a mark of respect though.

That's fair enough too. Amazing stories in your family no doubt

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No, I never agree! lol I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one Wolf.

Ah you just like being an awkward bollíx don't you! On this matter we'll more than likely always disagree, nothing wrong with that. Differences of opinion are grand as long as neither person wants to support something insane like genocide or the like!

donvito99

Crooked Jack wrote: »

I believe he also wears underwear. Are you opposed to it as well. What a sad life you must lead if your actions and opinions are based on what Gerry Adams does or doesnt do

Crooked Jack
Location: South Armagh


I see...

wolfpawnat

donvito99 wrote: »

Crooked Jack
Location: South Armagh


I see...

Well you have to admit, not doing something because a particular other person does is a bit childish. I believe Thatcher would have a breakfast, I am not going to skip it just because she decides to have toast or whatever in the morning.

A symbol like that does not gain/lose it's symbolism because a politician (and no matter what he did/didn't do in the past, that is what he is) wears it.

Chuck Stone

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

the top brass who led them.

The top brass inbred dim-wits who directed young men to 'charge' into machine gun fire during WW1 should have been hanged by the front line soldiers.

Lome

Can i just ask the people who wouldnt wear one tell me why they wouldnt? These guys were heros and gave their lives so you could be free in your own country i do admit they would be turning in their graves at the way this place is run but i think they deserve the highest amount of respect.

xLexie

Yes I do, proudly.

lockon...

Lome wrote: »

Can i just ask the people who wouldnt wear one tell me why they wouldnt? These guys were heros and gave their lives so you could be free in your own country i do admit they would be turning in their graves at the way this place is run but i think they deserve the highest amount of respect.

Heros don't wear balaclavas and boiler suits.

Nodin

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The same thing all the other poppies commemorate, those who died in armed conflict from 1914 onwards.
.

Sounds a bit broad to me.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I wasn't aware the poppy commemorated massacres. Thank you for enlightening me, someone should tell Simon Cowell. Here I was thinking all this time the poppy commemorated soldiers who died in battle, ordinary joe soaps who fought and died for their country rather then the top brass who led them. Well thank you for changing my ways, I'm a true and true pinhead chucky now.

The money goes towards veterans.

Nodin

donvito99 wrote: »

Crooked Jack
Location: South Armagh


I see...

You see what, exactly.

TiGeR KiNgS

i voted just to tie things up even more.

Iwasfrozen

Nodin wrote: »

Sounds a bit broad to me.

That's exactly the point, when you encompass both communities into one symbol you deny them one more thing to hate each other over.

Nodin wrote: »

The money goes towards veterans.

Yes it does.

gallag

Chuck Stone wrote: »

The top brass inbred dim-wits who directed young charge' into machine gun fire during WW1 should have been hanged by the front line soldiers.

Imagen being told to go over the top, to certain doom. every body of every man who went before you without returning still there. Hopefully we can keep bitching about trivial symbols in the safety of not doing it.

Lome

lockon... wrote: »

Heros don't wear balaclavas and boiler suits.

Correct me if im wrong but i dont think these heros wore any balaclavas or boiler suits . u really must know what your talking about......:rolleyes:

your the type of clown who voted no obviously...

lockon...

Lome wrote: »

Correct me if im wrong but i dont think these heros wore any balaclavas or boiler suits . u really must know what your talking about......:rolleyes:

your the type of clown who voted no obviously...

Go to a national graveyard and look for the graves which say "Maintained by NGA" and you'll recognise the balaclava wearers.

My name is URL

wolfpawnat wrote: »

That's fair enough too. Amazing stories in your family no doubt

Aye.. fair amount of bitterness too, mind :pac:

That's what I hate most about this type of discussion. Bunkering down on any one 'side' will end up sucking the life out of you!

Nodin

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

That's exactly the point, when you encompass both communities into one symbol you deny them one more thing to hate each other over.


Yes it does.

So you think these people should receive cash and aid?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/09/malaya-massacre-villagers-coverup

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/18/colonial-office-eliminations-malayan-insurgency

And do you think wars to sustain an empire are somehow justified?

Lome

lockon... wrote: »

Go to a national graveyard and look for the graves which say "Maintained by NGA" and you'll recognise the balaclava wearers.

Does that take anything away from these heroes??? these guys didn't wear anything but pride and love for there country...

If the NGA didnt look after the graves they would be let rot away and forgotten about ... something you and the other fools obviously wouldn't care about..

LordSutch

As smebody who always wears a poppy, I would have no problem with somebody wearing an Easter Lily anymore, specially after the Queens visit and the new complex understandings we now have as Irish people. Not so long ago I would have hissed and tut tutted (internally) if I saw somebody wearing an Easter Lily, so it seems (like most folk) I've mellowed and made progress since peace broke out, and the Queen worked her magic . . .

There are of course some hardline Lily wearing IRA N types who keep banging on about Mayalasia, Kenya, Iraq, and so on, who will never ease off on their hatred for the Poppy and the Hundreds of thousands of Irish men that symbol represents.

wolfpawnat

My name is URL wrote: »

Aye.. fair amount of bitterness too, mind :pac:

That's what I hate most about this type of discussion. Bunkering down on any one 'side' will end up sucking the life out of you!

I have a friend, his parents were getting married and his two grandfathers were talking. It came to light one was a RUC officer who worked in a barracks that was raided in the War of Independence, the other was in the group that did the raid! This was revealed in the afters of the wedding! I could well imagine it would have been an interesting evening after that. :pac:

Chuck Stone

gallag wrote: »

Image being told to go over the top, to certain doom. every body of every man who went before you without returning still there.

There's a very poignant clip of a WW1 over-the-top and one poor guy doesn't even get out of the trench (must have taken a bullet in the face) so he can die alongside his mates.

Horrible waste of life in a meat-grinder of a war.

wolfpawnat

LordSutch wrote: »

As smebody who always wears a poppy, I would have no problem with somebody wearing an Easter Lilly anymore, specially after the Queens visit and the new complex understandings we now have as Irish people.

Not so long ago I would have hissed and tut tutted (internally) if I saw somebody wearing an Easter Lilly, so it seems (like most folk) I've mellowed and made progress since peace broke out, and the Queen worked her magic . . .

Don't worry, I'd be doing it to you too

Iwasfrozen

Nodin wrote: »

So you think these people should receive cash and aid?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/09/malaya-massacre-villagers-coverup

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/18/colonial-office-eliminations-malayan-insurgency

No but denying them the money is an internal matter.

Nodin wrote: »

And do you think wars to sustain an empire are somehow justified?

No but again for God only knows how many times the poppy is not a British symbol.

Nodin

LordSutch wrote: »

..............
There are of course some hardline Lily wearing IRA N types who keep banging on about Mayalasia, Kenya, Iraq, and so on, who will never ease off on their hatred for the Poppy and the Hundreds of thousands of Irish men that symbol represents.

'Anti-imperialists'. Could have save yerself a lot typing there.

Nodin

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No but denying them the money is an internal matter..

As many of these events were either condoned or a matter of policy, they won't be denied any benefits whatsoever.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No but again for God only knows how many times the poppy is not a British symbol.

...which, as the only one sold here is the British legion one, is rather irrelevant.

LordSutch

And here he is, bang (excuse the pun) on time . . .

Always wondered me old 'hero' do you guys wear those black berrets & sunglasses at the weekends? or are they just for formal events?

Joe10000

I have often worn one and taken part in many commemorations and marches in support of the men and women of this country who died for our country's independence.

Having said that we've made some balls of it since.

Iwasfrozen

Nodin wrote: »

As many of these events were either condoned or a matter of policy, they won't be denied any benefits whatsoever.

What do you want to do? Persecute soldiers carrying out their orders? They had no choice, persecute the top brass but again that's an internal matter for the British, none of our business.

Nodin wrote: »

...which, as the only one sold here is the British legion one, is rather irrelevant.

What If I started selling poppies and gave the money to the Irish veterans (I'm sure there's some organisation) would you wear the poppy then?

Lome

LordSutch wrote: »

And here he is, bang (excuse the pun) on time . . .

Always wondered me old 'hero' do you guys wear those black berrets & sunglasses at the weekends? or are they just for formal events?

are you irish?

OCorcrainn

LordSutch wrote: »

And here he is, bang (excuse the pun) on time . . .

Always wondered me old 'hero' do you guys wear those black berrets & sunglasses at the weekends? or are they just for formal events?

I have never worn them.

Nodin

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

What do you want to do? Persecute soldiers carrying out their orders? They had no choice, persecute the top brass but again that's an internal matter for the British, none of our business.

Yet you have no problem with organisations soliciting funds over here for them.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

What If I started selling poppies and gave the money to the Irish veterans (I'm sure there's some organisation) would you wear the poppy then?

Only if it was (a) dedicated to the Irish who've died in ww1, ww2 and for the Irish Defence Forces (b) clearly distinguishable from the RBL one.

Happyman42

lockon... wrote: »

and the Queen worked her magic . . .

Yes, magic alright, saying as the half of Ireland swallowed her hollow words and disregarded the fact that her forces are still bombing and terrorising people into the acceptence of their 'gifts' around the world.

Iwasfrozen

Nodin wrote: »

Yet you have no problem with organisations soliciting funds over here for them.

So you want to toss out the whole apple cart over a few bad ones. Doesn't work like that.

Nodin wrote: »

Only if it was (a) dedicated to the Irish who've died in ww1, ww2 and for the Irish Defence Forces (b) clearly distinguishable from the RBL one.

A. Yes it would.
B. No it wouldn't that would defeat the purpose. The poppy is not a British symbol. Part of it would be reclaiming this international symbol as our own.

Sound of Silence

LordSutch wrote: »

As smebody who always wears a poppy, I would have no problem with somebody wearing an Easter Lily anymore, specially after the Queens visit and the new complex understandings we now have as Irish people. Not so long ago I would have hissed and tut tutted (internally) if I saw somebody wearing an Easter Lily, so it seems (like most folk) I've mellowed and made progress since peace broke out, and the Queen worked her magic . . .

There are of course some hardline Lily wearing IRA N types who keep banging on about Mayalasia, Kenya, Iraq, and so on, who will never ease off on their hatred for the Poppy and the Hundreds of thousands of Irish men that symbol represents.

I forgot that it was the Queen we had to thank for the mellowing of tensions between our two Nations.

As for the hardliners who, as you say, bang on about some of the less than admirable actions of the British Military, one can hardly argue that these people have some kind of unique viewpoint. Hell, It hardly takes an Irish Nationalist to look beyond the tropes of Jingoism and have even an inkling of critical insight.

Personally, I wouldn't wear either the Poppy or the Lilly, for I've never been one for pinning my Political affiliations on my lapel.

Crooked Jack

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

What if I made poppies, sold them and donated the money to the Irish armed forces. How would you view the poppy? It obviously isn't a British symbol then. Would you wear one? What if I stamped a republican symbol on it?

You keep repeating this as if it's some kind of great point you're making. It's not. If you made your own unofficial poppy, symbolising something else and sending the money elsewhere with a republican stamp on it then it wouldnt be a poppy would it. You'd just be some loon going round selling a badge promising to give the money to the defence forces.

What point are you trying to make here. it's nonsensical.