6N: Scotland v Ireland 24/02/2013; 14:00 [MOD WARNING POST 246 & 1020]

clsmooth

heybaby wrote: »

I think the highlight of yesterdays match was Marshall seemingly playing in his 50th test rather than his debut, he played much as debutants do from tri-nationas countries , without fear and free to express themselves, its clear he is ready for the international stage, paddy jackson on the other hand is certainly not ready for this level, he looked like a child amongst men and aside from poor kicking he totally failed to take control of the game, despite ireland dominating possession, how would he manage in a game were the opposition had more possession ? i shudder to think. I know it was his debut but think back to eoin farrell's debut, he oozed class from the get go. While nobody would expect a debutant to be the complete article he should be able to hit the ground running and be an asset to the team rather than a liability.

I also think we need to look at alternative options at full back. Kearney's inconsistancy over the last 4 years has mirrored that of Ireland's and is equally frustrating, I remember him in his first season on the tour down under playing exciting rugby and making incredible catches and line breaks then he practically disappeared for a year , I know he was injured last year but he's back playing regularly now but has been completely anonymous in this 6 nations. Its very frustrating when you know what he's capable of. While he'll never be match israel daag's pedigree he can certainly play at a higher level than he has done of late, to be honest Id drop him, and give luke fitzgerald a run out in the remaining games. If kearney doesnt have the hunger top make 15 his own he doesnt derserve the place on the team.

Rory best would need to ask himself some serious questions about his failure to hit the lineout, some people including myself suggested that he be given the captaincy rather than heaslip, I take it back, Best was at his worst yesterday. Likewise Tom Mccourt in the scrum.

I still maintain Kidney made a massive error taking the captaincy off BOD, not merely because Bod is an inspirational player but also because BOD is articulate. Heaslip is clearly uncomfortable talking to the media, in his post match interview he trotted out cliche after cliche, we had to wait till kearney was interviewed to hear an irish player speak from the heart about the collective disappointment and need for soul searching in the dressroom.

Question now is who replaces Kidney after we're beaten by the french and grind out an ugly win over the italians. O shea was being very diplomatic yesterday and dodging questions about his name being in the shake up. O shea is absolutely a prospect, but he's in his infancy as a coach, yes he's doing a great job with quins but its a job he 's only started, let him learn his trade for a several years before stepping up to the next level of international rugby, when he's won a couple of titles , including the HK then he'll be ready but not before. Schmit is probably the likliest of candidates purely because of his familiarity with the players and he's a manager with pedigree who has won at the highest level.

This is very optimistic.

ringo747

Maybe it's just me but my memories of Earls from the past few six nations has always been "does that guy never pass?". It certainly seemed that way yesterday. I would love to know what BOD said to him!

iroced

Draw

I think this week-end result is deceptive.

Soctland are not as sh*te as they are generally considered. They have a good scrum and a good line-out. They have power upfront and can gain ground using it. That's the base of a rugby game. They have a good fullback. What they really lack is a good pair of half-backs to dictate their game.

Ireland completely dominated the game but you just could not score. The amount of bad choices or errors for the final pass or close to the try line was almost on a "joke" level.
For a first cap I found Luke Marshall interesting. Gilroy was promising too. Same with Jackson. I found him interesting in the game. Then, yeah his kicking wasn't good enough but hey guys, I've said it numerous times in here, don't forget that with ROG (*) and now Sexton you had/have some of the best points scorer in the world.
You should have scored at least 2 or 3 tries in the first half (especially on Earl's break - why he didn't pass the ball to BOD is beyond me -). Then after so many mistakes it seemed inevitable that you were going to get punished by a committed Scottish side.

So. Next game will be the "losers" game in the Aviva. Damn the loser...

.

(*) I didn't realised he was that much finished :eek:. Thought a lot of you were being very harsh with him (haven't seen a Munster game for a while) but his last 2 subsitute entrances in this 6N were ... well I can't find the appropriate word... He just can not play at all anymore :eek:. Kidney is really doing him no favours to continue playing him. After everything he's done for the green jersey what a terribly dramatic way to end his international career...

Thud

clsmooth wrote: »

Did anyone else notice how short ROGs kicking has become once more yesterday? I know its been noted before with penalty kicks to touch. There was one moment after the dodgy cross kick pass thing that he tried where the ball got cleaned up on our line and passed back to him. He barely got the ball out of the 22 with his clearance. It's amazing how much the length has gone.

he seems to be taking a few weird little stutter steps before kicking as well which give the opposition time to get up and put pressure on him

MikeCork2009

clsmooth wrote: »

Did anyone else notice how short ROGs kicking has become once more yesterday? I know its been noted before with penalty kicks to touch. There was one moment after the dodgy cross kick pass thing that he tried where the ball got cleaned up on our line and passed back to him. He barely got the ball out of the 22 with his clearance. It's amazing how much the length has gone.

Yeah. On a number of occasions now for both Munster and Ireland he has even failed to find touch from penalties. It's sad to see such a fantastic player go out like this. I know it's his perogative to keep playing but the coach should just not be selecting him. If Kidney has a Munster bias then surely it would make more sense to give Keatley the bench spot instead. It doesn't make any sense to persevere with ROG.

Thud

MikeCork2009 wrote: »

Yeah. On a number of occasions now for both Munster and Ireland he has even failed to find touch from penalties. It's sad to see such a fantastic player go out like this. I know it's his perogative to keep playing but the coach should just not be selecting him. If Kidney has a Munster bias then surely it would make more sense to give Keatley the bench spot instead. It doesn't make any sense to persevere with ROG.

George hooks article from last week kind of made out that O'Gara was poorly set up for life after rugby and that these games were a chance to get his contract renewed, would somewhat explain why the hacks were getting behind his selection maybe Kidney was trying to help him out too??

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/comment-analysis/george-hook-brutal-axing-signals-end-of-line-for-ronan-ogara-29085077.html

doubt he'll end up on the dole but think he's done more damage than good for his post rugby career over the last few weeks

SebBerkovich

Ireland by >7 points

I Find it very hard not to lay the blame squarely at Kidney.
He started the game knowing he had no one who could reliably take kicks. It was a massive blunder.

Brian

heybaby wrote: »

I still maintain Kidney made a massive error taking the captaincy off BOD, not merely because Bod is an inspirational player but also because BOD is articulate. Heaslip is clearly uncomfortable talking to the media, in his post match interview he trotted out cliche after cliche, we had to wait till kearney was interviewed to hear an irish player speak from the heart about the collective disappointment and need for soul searching in the dressroom.

BOD's character and aptitude for interviews has always been one of my favourite things about him, and I think he's a great ambassador for Ireland (much more so than any of our politicians). But media skills should be pretty low on the list of priorities for a captain. Count how many times Richie McCaw uses the word "passion" in each post-match sound-byte from him and you'll get my drift.

I think the trouble with Heaslip is he doesn't act like a captain on the pitch

.ak

Brian wrote: »

I think the trouble with Heaslip is he doesn't act like a captain on the pitch

Out of interest, what should he be doing differently, on the pitch?

awec

.ak wrote: »

Out of interest, what should he be doing differently, on the pitch?

I'm not too sure that the on-field decision making is coming from Heaslip.

.ak

That's the clincher though isn't, nobody is sure. It's near impossible to tell what a 'captain' is doing or saying from your couch. Unless you're at the ground and even then you're not privy to what's being done or said on the pitch.

The decision to kick to the corner was probably more Jackson's than Heaslip's, as soon as we were awarded a pen on the right hand side of the pitch Jackson took a pop at goal. He's obviously not comfortable at taking shots on the left, and Heaslip is always going to take that into consideration.

squeaky crank

SebBerkovich wrote: »

I Find it very hard not to lay the blame squarely at Kidney.
He started the game knowing he had no one who could reliably take kicks. It was a massive blunder.

completely agree SebBerkovich, missed kicks and kicking potential 3 pointers to touch. Also the penalty that failed to find touch. Jacksons primary job was to kick points and kick for field position - in both cases he was out of his depth. Kidney and Heaslip let him down for exposing him like that.

Putting Heaslip in as captain has compromised him and others around him - in my opinion another major blunder by Kidney

.ak

squeaky crank wrote: »

completely agree SebBerkovich, missed kicks and kicking potential 3 pointers to touch. Also the penalty that failed to find touch. Jacksons primary job was to kick points and kick for field position - in both cases he was out of his depth. Kidney and Heaslip let him down for exposing him like that.

I'm sorry but that's wrong. It's not an outhalves primary position to do these. Field position is important, but it's not always done with the boot.

SebBerkovich

Ireland by >7 points

squeaky crank wrote: »

Putting Heaslip in as captain has compromised him and others around him - in my opinion another major blunder by Kidney

Heaslip as captain wouldn't have been such a bad idea, if BOD wasn't around. It seems clear that BOD is stepping up and taking charge when things get tight. Not sure how good that is for the team not to have a clear leader for a full 80.

KERSPLAT!

.ak wrote: »

That's the clincher though isn't, nobody is sure. It's near impossible to tell what a 'captain' is doing or saying from your couch. Unless you're at the ground and even then you're not privy to what's being done or said on the pitch.

The decision to kick to the corner was probably more Jackson's than Heaslip's, as soon as we were awarded a pen on the right hand side of the pitch Jackson took a pop at goal. He's obviously not comfortable at taking shots on the left, and Heaslip is always going to take that into consideration.

Wouldn't a right footed kicker normally favour the left side? To me it didn't seem like it was Jackson's call, we had them on the backfoot almost from the start and I think we wanted the 5 instead of 3 to show from it, just so happened to not work out. Gonna have another look at the game tonight.

Havent read the whole thread but I'm sure Best has been mentioned, what was up with his throwing?

captbarnacles

Ireland by >7 points

I know I'm in a small minority but I'm really not too upset about that result. I don't think we were winning Six Nations eitherways and Grand Slam, Triple Crown were gone so why not experiment. I would have gone further and left Jackson on until the end. If we use the rest of these matches to develop players and build a better team in the future no-one will care that we had a poor finish in this years six nations. Other nations do this!

SebBerkovich

Ireland by >7 points

captbarnacles wrote: »

I know I'm in a small minority but I'm really not too upset about that result. I don't think we were winning Six Nations eitherways and Grand Slam, Triple Crown were gone so why not experiment. I would have gone further and left Jackson on until the end. If we use the rest of these matches to develop players and build a better team in the future no-one will care that we had a poor finish in this years six nations. Other nations do this!

Having seen what ROG had to offer when he came on, i would agree...


should have been madigan at 10 from the start though

.ak

Princess Petulia Pissy Pants wrote: »

Wouldn't a right footed kicker normally favour the left side? To me it didn't seem like it was Jackson's call, we had them on the backfoot almost from the start and I think we wanted the 5 instead of 3 to show from it, just so happened to not work out. Gonna have another look at the game tonight.

Havent read the whole thread but I'm sure Best has been mentioned, what was up with his throwing?

TBH I'm not sure, but literally every pen we got on the left side of the pitch he kicked to the corner, then once we got a pen on the right he took a shot at goals, we then got another pen on the left side and once again it was kicked to the corner.

KERSPLAT!

.ak wrote: »

TBH I'm not sure, but literally every pen we got on the left side of the pitch he kicked to the corner, then once we got a pen on the right he took a shot at goals, we then got another pen on the left side and once again it was kicked to the corner.

Yeah your right it does seem strange. It doesn't make sense to me. I don't play 10 myself but in any sport it always seems easier for someone to kick from the left if they are right footed and vice versa for a left footed player. Easier to draw a ball in

P.Walnuts

Ireland by >7 points

.ak wrote: »

TBH I'm not sure, but literally every pen we got on the left side of the pitch he kicked to the corner, then once we got a pen on the right he took a shot at goals, we then got another pen on the left side and once again it was kicked to the corner.

Surely this in indicative of the lack of leadership on the pitch.

Heaslip had a fine game IMO, but we were rudderless out there. People can blame Kidney for this is they want, but lets be honest decisions on the pitch are up to the captain to make.

clsmooth

Princess Petulia Pissy Pants wrote: »

Yeah your right it does seem strange. It doesn't make sense to me. I don't play 10 myself but in any sport it always seems easier for someone to kick from the left if they are right footed and vice versa for a left footed player. Easier to draw a ball in

Well you can see where you're kicking in your periphery and your body is more open as opposed to kicking across you're body. They say its similar in snooker.

.ak

P.Walnuts wrote: »

Surely this in indicative of the lack of leadership on the pitch.

Heaslip had a fine game IMO, but we were rudderless out there. People can blame Kidney for this is they want, but lets be honest decisions on the pitch are up to the captain to make.

I don't understand how you're getting to that? Why would Heaslip say for him to kick to the corner ONLY if we get a penalty on the left side of the pitch? If we get one on the right we kick for goal? Don't know how you're reaching that conclusion tbh.

P.Walnuts

Ireland by >7 points

.ak wrote: »

I don't understand how you're getting to that? Why would Heaslip say for him to kick to the corner ONLY if we get a penalty on the left side of the pitch? If we get one on the right we kick for goal? Don't know how you're reaching that conclusion tbh.

Sorry I kind of misread your post, or at least the context.

We chose to kick to the corner early from very kickable positions, yet later chose to kick at goal from a much more difficult angles. Just made no sense.

Our on pitch decision making yesterday was abject.

.ak

P.Walnuts wrote: »

Sorry I kind of misread your post, or at least the context.

We chose to kick to the corner early from very kickable positions, yet later chose to kick at goal from a much more difficult angles. Just made no sense.

Our on pitch decision making yesterday was abject.

Yeah, but when we decline some pens for goal and take on others when they're in different positions on the pitch I would be inclined to believe PJ advised Heaslip he wasn't confident with certain kicks in certain parts of the field.

ScissorPaperRock

"It’s probably the biggest game he’s played in, pressure-wise and atmosphere-wise. That’s more to do with it than anything. He missed a couple of kicks but if I had passed to Craig we would have won anyway. You can’t go blaming him."

You have to respect Marshall's attitude; taking some of the heat off Jackson and willing to draw attention to his own errors


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2013/0225/1224330477592.html

P.Walnuts

Ireland by >7 points

.ak wrote: »

Yeah, but when we decline some pens for goal and take on others when they're in different positions on the pitch I would be inclined to believe PJ advised Heaslip he wasn't confident with certain kicks in certain parts of the field.

I don't know about that, why would he be less comfortable kicking (as a right footed kicker) closer in on the left hand side, rather than further out on the right hand side? Doesn't make sense to me.

Heaslip gets alot of unwarranted criticism on here sometimes, but I think he was responsible for the decisions yesterday.

Look at Robshaw though, live and learn and all that.

bilston

Just watching it again and I swear that in the melee after Gilroys try Hogg sticks his head on the head of Earls. Not a proper headbutt but it looks pretty poor. Shame as Hogg is a great player but looks to have a bit of an arsey side to his game which he could without. Anyone else see this? Maybe I'm over egging it? But if you can, watch it again and have a look for yourseleves.

CatFromHue

bilston wrote: »

Just watching it again and I swear that in the melee after Gilroys try Hogg sticks his head on the head of Earls. Not a proper headbutt but it looks pretty poor. Shame as Hogg is a great player but looks to have a bit of an arsey side to his game which he could without. Anyone else see this? Maybe I'm over egging it? But if you can, watch it again and have a look for yourseleves.

The camera didn't get a great view of it but yeah I think it happened.

The ref spoke to him about getting involved when the melee broke up.

stephen_n

P.Walnuts wrote: »

Surely this in indicative of the lack of leadership on the pitch.

Heaslip had a fine game IMO, but we were rudderless out there. People can blame Kidney for this is they want, but lets be honest decisions on the pitch are up to the captain to make.

The kickers would have a lot of say in determining shots on goal, clearly later in the game if your chasing it and need more than 3 points the captain will dictate but you would often see BOD or POC checking with O'Gara/Sexton do they feel comfortable with a shot on goal, it would be fair to assume with that pattern of kicks that Jackson didn't feel comfortable on that side.

rrpc

Princess Petulia Pissy Pants wrote: »

Havent read the whole thread but I'm sure Best has been mentioned, what was up with his throwing?

Big Jim Hamilton.

clsmooth

stephen_n wrote: »

The kickers would have a lot of say in determining shots on goal, clearly later in the game if your chasing it and need more than 3 points the captain will dictate but you would often see BOD or POC checking with O'Gara/Sexton do they feel comfortable with a shot on goal, it would be fair to assume with that pattern of kicks that Jackson didn't feel comfortable on that side.

Or a predetermined tactic like when we played Wales in the RWC?

little173

Watching the Eng game with Clive Woodward providing some analysis was very good and relevant for Ireland in this match. He talked about world class teams not conceding penalties inside their own half but having the skill and mental discipline to defend effectively at the breakdowm, trust the defensive system and force the opposition into an error.

In this game, like vs England, Ireland seemed to be unable to do this. The SOB lunge comes to mind, the scots player was certainly holding on which I guess he felt agreaved by but just lost discipline, gives away the points. England just dont give up important penalties in the important areas which is why they are top of the table right now, it doesnt really matter that they dont make line breaks or kick away a lot of ball

P.Walnuts

Ireland by >7 points

On the SOB thing, I think he thought the ball was out....although once he was off his feet he couldn't play it anyway right? Bizzare bit of play really

.ak

P.Walnuts wrote: »

On the SOB thing, I think he thought the ball was out....although once he was off his feet he couldn't play it anyway right? Bizzare bit of play really

For me it looked like the ball popped out of the ruck, and was open. It would be akin to diving on a loose ball. However Barnes was missing knocks on and squeeze balls all day, so it was a bit silly for SOB to assume for Barnes to be on the same wavelength.

P.Walnuts

Ireland by >7 points

.ak wrote: »

For me it looked like the ball popped out of the ruck, and was open. It would be akin to diving on a loose ball. However Barnes was missing knocks on and squeeze balls all day, so it was a bit silly for SOB to assume for Barnes to be on the same wavelength.

Yep I thought it was out too...

On the legal side of things, if SOB was on his feet he could dive on it no problem...but if he was on the ground he couldn't...or does off oyur feet not matter once the ball is no longer in ruck?

.ak

P.Walnuts wrote: »

Yep I thought it was out too...

On the legal side of things, if SOB was on his feet he could dive on it no problem...but if he was on the ground he couldn't...or does off oyur feet not matter once the ball is no longer in ruck?

The bolded bit is correct.

jacothelad

Princess Petulia Pissy Pants wrote: »

Wouldn't a right footed kicker normally favour the left side? To me it didn't seem like it was Jackson's call, we had them on the backfoot almost from the start and I think we wanted the 5 instead of 3 to show from it, just so happened to not work out. Gonna have another look at the game tonight.

Havent read the whole thread but I'm sure Best has been mentioned, what was up with his throwing?

Right about the kicking. As for Best's throwing, one was way off the straight and we lost 3 others out of 15. The throws were straight, hard and fast but let's face it, if you are up against two 6'10" line out sopecialist locks who have been coached properly and you have 6'5" locks who do whatever comes in to their head, the caller has to be a moron if he tries to compete with them directly. Having locks who aren't good in the line out isn't Best's fault, having a caller who is as dense as basalt isn't Best's fault. Having players who can't catch isn't Best's fault although a hooker is an easy target for lazy thinkers and unobservant critics like Hook.

little173

P.Walnuts wrote: »

Yep I thought it was out too...

On the legal side of things, if SOB was on his feet he could dive on it no problem...but if he was on the ground he couldn't...or does off oyur feet not matter once the ball is no longer in ruck?

I think it was marginal I agree - the problem was he was alredy off his feet in the ruck as his knee was down and then he lunged forward to grab the ball. High risk and poor decision making - same with Kearney/Doc on the other penalty and Heaslip with his slow release.

captbarnacles

Ireland by >7 points

16.4 OTHER RUCK OFFENCES
(e) A player must not fall on or over a ball as it is coming out of a ruck.
Sanction: Penalty kick

I guess it depends on when it is "finished coming out of the ruck"

jacothelad

.ak wrote: »

TBH I'm not sure, but literally every pen we got on the left side of the pitch he kicked to the corner, then once we got a pen on the right he took a shot at goals, we then got another pen on the left side and once again it was kicked to the corner.

As a right footed kicker he kicks well from the left side of the pitch. The calls were made by Heaslip. A 21 year old in his first game doesn't get to call the shots. Jackson should have been given the opportunity to kick at goal from the easy side but the captain made huge errors in denying him those chances.

.ak

jacothelad wrote: »

He kicks well from the left side of the pitch. The calls were made by Heaslip. A 21 year old in his first game doesn't get top call the shots.

Fair enough, then why did he take the kicks on the right side of the pitch when available?

EDIT: Also, I'm not saying he called the shots, but Heaslip would certainly be asking him if he was comfortable with taking them. Range, difficulty etc.

Otacon

P.Walnuts wrote: »

if SOB was on his feet he could dive on it no problem...but if he was on the ground he couldn't...

.ak wrote: »

The bolded bit is correct.

Actually, when Maitland and Earls went for a high ball at one stage, Earls got knocked onto his back by a knee. However, while on the ground, he then grabbed Maitland's leg to stop him. Was that not illegal too?

.ak

Otacon wrote: »

Actually, when Maitland and Earls went for a high ball at one stage, Earls got knocked onto his back by a knee. However, while on the ground, he then grabbed Maitland's leg to stop him. Was that not illegal too?

Actually not sure, I would assume that's okay. How many times have we seen people miss tackles then grabbing ankles?

19543261

Ireland by >7 points

ScissorPaperRoc wrote: »

You have to respect Marshall's attitude; taking some of the heat off Jackson and willing to draw attention to his own errors


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2013/0225/1224330477592.html

Yeah, watching them play together really emphasised for me how important it is to have a relationship like that between two players.

I think it got to the point where I was playing it up in my head a bit, too - Jackson got isolated a little and Marshal got stuck in there all heroically, the ferocity /obviously/ coming from Marshal not wanting Jackson to be the one to loose posession ;p There was another point where Jackson kicked the ball up and I thought he put far too much distance on it, but BOD and someone else just werent going to let it happen and put in a some storming chase after it!

Outside of my head, I actually do think there would have been a strong comradery in supporting Jackson, and in some ways I'm sure it galvanised some parts of play.

Otacon

.ak wrote: »

Actually not sure, I would assume that's okay. How many times have we seen people miss tackles then grabbing ankles?

But are you allowed to play when you are on the ground? Fair enough, if you go for the ankle if you are falling or something, I just thought as Earls was on the ground, he was 'out of the game'.

jacothelad

.ak wrote: »

Fair enough, then why did he take the kicks on the right side of the pitch when available?

EDIT: Also, I'm not saying he called the shots, but Heaslip would certainly be asking him if he was comfortable with taking them. Range, difficulty etc.

You must have seen Jackson kicking for Ulster. He has started 13 games this season and kicked in 11 and has scored 116 points. He doesn't have a problem with range either. He is however too inconsistent to be a front line international goal kicker while he is coached by Neil Doak.

irishbucsfan

Ireland by >7 points

.ak wrote: »

Actually not sure, I would assume that's okay. How many times have we seen people miss tackles then grabbing ankles?

It's illegal but it'd be harsh to call.

.ak

jacothelad wrote: »

You must have seen Jackson kicking for Ulster. He has started 13 games this season and kicked in 11 and has scored 116 points.

I have. Not sure what you're getting at though. I think he's a decent kicker, don't have a problem with that. I'm just wondering why on the day we kicked to corner ONLY when we got penalties on the left side of the pitch, and then on the RIGHT side in the exact same position we kicked to goal.

If it was Heaslip, fair enough, but I can't see why he'd say 'corner on this side, but now we're on the right side, posts, and now we're back on the left, corner'. Seems strange and would suggest the kicker wasn't happy with those pens on the left side.

jacothelad

.ak wrote: »

I have. Not sure what you're getting at though. I think he's a decent kicker, don't have a problem with that. I'm just wondering why on the day we kicked to corner ONLY when we got penalties on the left side of the pitch, and then on the RIGHT side in the exact same position we kicked to goal.

If it was Heaslip, fair enough, but I can't see why he'd say 'corner on this side, but now we're on the right side, posts, and now we're back on the left, corner'. Seems strange and would suggest the kicker wasn't happy with those pens on the left side.

That is why I think the decisions were horrendous. Kick from the easy side and don't take the chance from the wrong side for a right footed kicker.

.ak

jacothelad wrote: »

That is why I think the decisions were horrendous. Kick from the easy side and don't take the chance from the wrong side for a right footed kicker.

Yeah, surely the kicker would speak up about though wouldn't he? The kicker would know best regarding probability of success.