Milan v Barca

Rekop dog

iDave wrote: »

It was an upset but certainly not a shock.
I think the Milan players over-celebrated a little after though. Looks like the underdog status had permeated into the dressing room

Just a culture thing. This type of celebration(team running hand in hand down the pitch) happens after any big win in Italy.

iregk

Rekop dog wrote: »

I'd argue you have less understanding of the European game/football in general if you didn't see that as a huge shock.

Well you could argue anything really I suppose. That's the joys of the world.

On another note I saw a brilliant series of tweets last night discussing the conspiracy behind the game:

Barcelona throw the match -> Milan win helps Silvio get re-elected -> the already shaky economic situation in Italy goes into collapse under Silvio -> The demise of the Italian economy takes down the Spanish economy with it -> In the aftermath of an economic apocalypse Spain is a political war zone -> The country becomes segregated and regions break away leading to the rise of Catalonia independence.

An audacious plan but that's the reason Barcelona were beaten last night

LuckyLloyd

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Important to note that Barcelona probably are the best thing to ever happen to football.

Ha!

Unfortunately people will genuinely believe this too.

iregk

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Important to note that Barcelona probably are the best thing to ever happen to football.

How so?

shrewdness

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Important to note that Barcelona probably are the best thing to ever happen to football.

In your opinion.

Lennonist

This seems to happen in the CL every season now. Teams have figured out how to stop Barca; just pack the middle preventing Barca's tika taka passing game, pushing them out wide where they are less effective because they have no center forward to deliver crosses to. Spain can be stopped in this way at international level as well I would say. Barcelona need to come up with alternatives to their regular game when it is being stifled by opposing teams, otherwise they wont be winning any more Champions League titles.

Still, should be an interesting 2nd leg.

Mont

Lennonist wrote: »

This seems to happen in the CL every season now. Teams have figured out how to stop Barca; just pack the middle preventing Barca's tika taka passing game, pushing them out wide where they are less effective because they have no center forward to deliver crosses to. Spain can be stopped in this way at international level as well I would say. Barcelona need to come up with alternatives to their regular game when it is being stifled by opposing teams, otherwise they wont be winning any more Champions League titles.

Still, should be an interesting 2nd leg.

Every season?? I didnt see anyone figuring them out well enough two seasons ago or 4 seasons ago. They were knocked out last year due to sheer bad luck. Spain have won the last two international tournaments pretty easily. Teams might know what to do but knowing and doing are two totally different things.

Lets face it Barca were crap last night. It is one of the worst performances i have seen them play and i see them most weeks. They were totally ineffective with uncharacteristic sloppy passing and poor control. Milan played perfectly and defended brilliantly. Anytime Barca lose the same ol stuff gets bandied about - they have no Plan B, they lack width blah blah blah. Every team is entitled to have a bad game and that is what it was - a bad game. They cant be as bad as they were last night again and could quite easily trounce Milan in 3 weeks time. Then we can back to applauding them as the best team in the world.

This Milan side are not a great team at all, they just had a great European night as they are a massive club with a huge pedigree. Last year even dire Arsenal nearly knocked them out in the second leg after being completely hammered in Italy. And as for needing a big thump of a centre forward for Barca, give me a break. They dont need changing at all.

StephenHendry

great win for milan, barca were underpar and milan will need the 2 goal lead in the return leg. i still think barca will get the job done, it could well go to extra time

Lennonist

Mont wrote: »

Every season?? I didnt see anyone figuring them out well enough two seasons ago or 4 seasons ago. They were knocked out last year due to sheer bad luck. Spain have won the last two international tournaments pretty easily. Teams might know what to do but knowing and doing are two totally different things.

Lets face it Barca were crap last night. It is one of the worst performances i have seen them play and i see them most weeks. They were totally ineffective with uncharacteristic sloppy passing and poor control. Milan played perfectly and defended brilliantly. Anytime Barca lose the same ol stuff gets bandied about - they have no Plan B, they lack width blah blah blah. Every team is entitled to have a bad game and that is what it was - a bad game. They cant be as bad as they were last night again and could quite easily trounce Milan in 3 weeks time. Then we can back to applauding them as the best team in the world.

This Milan side are not a great team at all, they just had a great European night as they are a massive club with a huge pedigree. Last year even dire Arsenal nearly knocked them out in the second leg after being completely hammered in Italy. And as for needing a big thump of a centre forward for Barca, give me a break. They dont need changing at all.

Calm down there, I would actually like to see Barca win when my own team is out because I like their style. Are you a Barca fanboy in denial? I didn't say they need a big thump of a center forward, I said they need an alternative if they are faced with an opposition that is stifling their gameplan. Llorente, Ibra, someone like that could provide an alternative for them. In other words they need a Plan B.

There is a clear and obvious way to stop Barca; prevent them from passing through the middle and force them out to the wings where they are less effective. You don't need to be a great team to do that to Barca, you just have to work really hard and remain disciplined.

Barca wont be winning any more Champions League titles, unless they come up with alternatives to their regular style when it isn't working. Even if they managed to turn things around and get through this tie, there are others who will know exactly what to do if and when they meet them.

Optimalprimerib

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Important to note that Barcelona probably are the best thing to ever happen to football.

Thank you, I didn't watch the game due to work commitments but your input in this thread has been nothing short of entertaining. I am still trying to decide are u for real or pulling the piss.

Andersonisgod

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Ha!

Unfortunately people will genuinely believe this too.

Why aren't they? 2 Champions Leagues, 3 La Liga's, 2 World Club Championships since Guardiola and a core of players that make up the greatest national side ever. They've changed how football is played, how football is judged and have set a new standard, at a height previously never seen.

Giggsy11

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Why aren't they? 2 Champions Leagues, 3 La Liga's, 2 World Club Championships since Guardiola and a core of players that make up the greatest national side ever. They've changed how football is played, how football is judged and have set a new standard, at a height previously never seen.

Hopefully I have googled correct pic.

AugustusMinimus

Spot on Giggsy.

Its hard to underplay the influence Cryuff had on Barcelona and the entire Spanish league in general when he managed Barca in the 90s.

La Liga in the 1980s was a dark place. Was considering a very dangerous league. It was so dangerous, Maradona decided to get the hell out of there after having his leg broken by Goikoetxea (aka the Butcher of Bilbao).

Andersonisgod

Giggsy11 wrote: »

Hopefully I have googled correct pic.

Nobody is doubting the greatness of the Ajax side of that time or if the Cruyff influence at Barcelona. You could argue that this Barcelona side has been 30 years in the making, stretching back to the Dutch influence at the club and then perfected by Pep Guardiola, who had players at his disposable who had been crafted from childhood to play the Barca way.

They've taken Total Football and turned it into something even more formidable and beautiful.

Moneymaker

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Why aren't they? 2 Champions Leagues, 3 La Liga's, 2 World Club Championships since Guardiola and a core of players that make up the greatest national side ever. They've changed how football is played, how football is judged and have set a new standard, at a height previously never seen.

Yeah because the Madrid side in the 50s, Brazil in the 70s, Liverpool teams of the 80s, Milan sides of the late 80's early 90s, Man U in the late 90's-early 00's were rubbish and didn't define an era or how to play football at all.

For the love of christ tone down the Barca drool, it's kind of embarrasing.

jmayo

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Actually the way you seem to rate Pique is a bit ridiculous so obviously it is going to be jumped on. He is hardly some youth player trying to find his feet, or some journeyman who just happens to have found himself at the heart of the Barcelona and Spanish defence. He is one of the finest centre backs in world football and has been for a very long time. This is a guy who has been at the heart of 3 La Liga, 2 Copa Del Rey, 2 Champions League's, 2 World Club Championships, 2 European Championships and a World Cup. On top of a host of individual honors (thank you Wikipedia). Hardly a coincidence, he is a top class centre back, of that there can't be any question.

Some of the best players in the world haven't won fook all.
Are you saying that all the players that have won a world cup or Euro Championship are/were better players than George Best, Paul McGrath, Liam Brady, Kenny Daglish, etc ?
FFS Djimi Traore has a CL medal.
Does that mean he was a great fullback ?

pique is lucky in that he is protected by one of the most gifted and hardest working midfields ever whereas some of his predecessors didn't have that luxury.

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Im not saying that Milan didn't execute their plan well. The only thing I am saying in this regard is that I would always rather see the team that tries to play (or bring the game to) the opposition win rather than the team who parks the bus and counter attacks. That's an opinion simply based on how I think football should be playing, nothing more sinister.

Do you even know what the "park the bus" term means, because that isn't what Milan did ?

BTW if you want all out attack and lots of scores then watch basketball.
Football is about a bit more than just having the ball and attacking.

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Important to note that Barcelona probably are the best thing to ever happen to football.

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Why aren't they? 2 Champions Leagues, 3 La Liga's, 2 World Club Championships since Guardiola and a core of players that make up the greatest national side ever. They've changed how football is played, how football is judged and have set a new standard, at a height previously never seen.

You my boy are one of the reasons some of us now relish the nights when Barca get found out.
Greatest national side ever ???
The best thing to ever happen to football ?

When did you start watching football ?
Let me guess a few years ago when this Barca side arrived with it's subsequent knock on affects on the Spanish national side.

Do a bit of research and look for other great teams that had huge bearing on the way the game evolved before come out with the tride sh**e being pedalled by some who only started watching the game a few years ago.

For starters check out the Hungarian Golden team of the 50s with Puskas, Czibor, Kocsis.
Then check out the Ajax/Dutch teams of early 70s who perfected the total football started by the Hungarians.

There would be no Barca tika taka without the above.

And I am not even mentioning the other great national and club sides who may not have revolutionised the game but still contributed something special to the game.

iregk

jmayo wrote: »

And I am not even mentioning the other great national and club sides who may not have revolutionised the game but still contributed something special to the game.

Scotland. I hear ya. Added an evolutionary step to the game with the radical 4-6-0 formation, then Spain took all the credit.

Andersonisgod

jmayo wrote: »

Some of the best players in the world haven't won fook all.
Are you saying that all the players that have won a world cup or Euro Championship are/were better players than George Best, Paul McGrath, Liam Brady, Kenny Daglish, etc ?
FFS Djimi Traore has a CL medal.
Does that mean he was a great fullback ?

pique is lucky in that he is protected by one of the most gifted and hardest working midfields ever whereas some of his predecessors didn't have that luxury.



Do you even know what the "park the bus" term means, because that isn't what Milan did ?

BTW if you want all out attack and lots of scores then watch basketball.
Football is about a bit more than just having the ball and attacking.





You my boy are one of the reasons some of us now relish the nights when Barca get found out.
Greatest national side ever ???
The best thing to ever happen to football ?

When did you start watching football ?
Let me guess a few years ago when this Barca side arrived with it's subsequent knock on affects on the Spanish national side.

Do a bit of research and look for other great teams that had huge bearing on the way the game evolved before come out with the tride sh**e being pedalled by some who only started watching the game a few years ago.

For starters check out the Hungarian Golden team of the 50s with Puskas, Czibor, Kocsis.
Then check out the Ajax/Dutch teams of early 70s who perfected the total football started by the Hungarians.

There would be no Barca tika taka without the above.

And I am not even mentioning the other great national and club sides who may not have revolutionised the game but still contributed something special to the game.

Allow me to quickly run through this, ala hot knife through butter.

No of course not, but to be an integral part of a side that has not only won one, but three on the bounce would be a certain indication that you are a special footballer. What other player in the history of the game has won as much as Gerard Pique but has been an average player? You make it sound as if he is just some random lad they plucked off the street, stuck a jersey on him and told him to play, he's been a key part of Barcelona and Spain's success at the heart of the defence. While he might be lucky to have Xavi, Busquets, Iniesta and Fabregas ahead of him, all of those players are lucky to have Pique behind them.

Read the reaction to the game in the newspapers across Europe, they were certainly very defensive tactics on display from Milan last night, a consensus practically everyone agrees with.

Did I say I want all out attack? Please show me that quote. I did say I'd rather a team that tries to play. that tales the game to the opposition. That isn't all out attack, that's simply a side that has in ingrained in them to play the right way.

What national side is greater? Euro 2008, World Cup 2010, Euro 2012 and all in a most admirable fashion, Euro 2012 even without a striker.

Why can't this Barcelona side be considered the greatest team ever? In it's ranks is, arguably, the greatest footballer ever in Lionel Messi and arguably two of the greatest midfielders ever in Xavi and Iniesta. That's not to mention a sublime supporting cast like Busquets, Fabregas, Pedro, Villa, Puyol, Valdes, Alves, Pique ect. It's a team that has swept all before them at club level and done it in a manner never seen before.

Actually I have read "Inverting the Pyramid" which must be one of the best football books ever written and gives quite a good insight into the impact all of those teams had on how the modern game has developed. As much as all of those teams changed the game, Barcelona have changed it too. With their aggressive pressing, their heavy possession based game, their willingness to opt for smaller players over the bigger athletes which was the norm, their false nine, their freedom in rotation. Make no mistake about it, in 20, 30 or 50 years time, they will talk about this Barcelona team in the same way they speak of Brazil 1970, Hungary 1950 or the great Ajax side. It's hardly a shocking statement, nor is it that much of a leap to say that this Barcelona side, this generation of Messi, Xavi, Iniesta ect. are the greatest ever, they prove it week after week.

Andersonisgod

Moneymaker wrote: »

Yeah because the Madrid side in the 50s, Brazil in the 70s, Liverpool teams of the 80s, Milan sides of the late 80's early 90s, Man U in the late 90's-early 00's were rubbish and didn't define an era or how to play football at all.

For the love of christ tone down the Barca drool, it's kind of embarrasing.

Who said that they didn't define an era? However Barcelona do more than define an era. Only a select few sides can truly say they changed the way football is played, viewed, coached and judged. Barcelona are one oft he very few sides who can say such a thing.

Mars Bar

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Who said that they didn't define an era? However Barcelona do more than define an era. Only a select few sides can truly say they changed the way football is played, viewed, coached and judged. Barcelona are one oft he very few sides who can say such a thing.

But they didn't. They have just taken an ethos that the greatest teams before them did. They've just taken the time and effort to work on it slowly up to the last couple of seasons where they have peaked as their work pays off.

Andersonisgod

Mars Bar wrote: »

But they didn't. They have just taken an ethos that the greatest teams before them did. They've just taken the time and effort to work on it slowly up to the last couple of seasons where they have peaked as their work pays off.

Im sorry but I don't agree. You say they've taken an ethos developed by the greatest teams before them and while I would absolutely agree, and it's been well documented, that the Dutch influence of Cruyff and Rinus Michels has been an integral part of the philosophy of Barcelona's football and their La Masia academy. Of course lot of teams have contributed to football in general, Im not trying to argue that Barcelona have created football from dust. The introduction of pressing, the rotation of positions between players, the idea of working the ball around the pitch rather than going right for goal, arguably all part of a natural development of the game as the years went by but no none can be solely credited to Barcelona, nor am I saying that they should be.

However no team has ever notched up the kind of possession figures that Barcelona have on a match to match basis. The pack pressing high up the pitch was hardly a regular occurrence in football. While small players were hardly an unheard of thing I'd wager that no top side has ever had an average height as small as this Barcelona team and the influence that has had in teams around the world looking to follow the Barcelona model and sign smaller, technically gifted players over big athletes. Playing with a false 9, holding midfielder dropping into the backline, while not unheard of, to be done on such a regular basis by such a high profile side still is significant.

While a lot of the foundations were laid in the Cruyff/Michels time, Guardiola came in with his own twists on the concepts already at the club. The result is what we see now every week, tiki taka, total football taken to the extreme. So yes, I would argue that Barcelona have changed football, of course they have, they have changed how the game is played, they how changed how it is judged, they have set a whole new standard which all others must aim towards. They are a great team, in my opinion, the greatest team.

764dak

Mont wrote: »

Spain have won the last two international tournaments pretty easily.

Spain barely won the World Cup.

mitosis

Andersonisgod wrote: »

. They are a great team, in my opinion, the greatest team.

Football is not decided by possession. 65% possession is worth sod all if you only shoot on target once in an hour and a half.

Barcelona are great, no doubt, but not as great as Milan 89-90, for example, or Il Gran Torino - the greatest club side ever.

Andersonisgod

mitosis wrote: »

Football is not decided by possession. 65% possession is worth sod all if you only shoot on target once in an hour and a half.

Barcelona are great, no doubt, but not as great as Milan 89-90, for example, or Il Gran Torino - the greatest club side ever.

Why? I've given loads of reasons why Barcelona are the greatest club side ever. Why are Milan 89-90 the greatest club team ever?

mitosis

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Why? I've given loads of reasons why Barcelona are the greatest club side ever. Why are Milan 89-90 the greatest club team ever?

Barcelona are great, no doubt, but not as great as Milan 89-90, for example, or Il Gran Torino - the greatest club side ever.

smileyj1987

Andersonisgod wrote: »

They are a great team, in my opinion, the greatest team.

They are the greatest team of the noughties , its hard to say who the greatest club side ever because there have been a good few who could lay claims to this . Ac Milan of the early 90's Manchester United late 90's , Liverpool of the late 70's early 80's , Ajax of the 70's and the Madrid team of the 50's . They where all awesome teams so its hard to say who the best are outright .
Right now all they are the greatest team on the planet and have been for the last few years . How long they will last its hard to see so let's just enjoy them while we can .

Rekop dog

Why do people keep putting late 90's United in the same category as the all time great teams?They won one CL title where Bayern dominated the final. Very good team but doing other brilliant teams a disservice including them in the list.

Blatter

Rekop dog wrote: »

Why do people keep putting late 90's United in the same category as the all time great teams?They won one CL title where Bayern dominated the final. Very good team but doing other brilliant teams a disservice including them in the list.

I agree with your sentiment that they shouldn't be lumped in with the greats but Bayern dominating that final probably had more to do with United missing their entire first choice CM through suspension, Scholes and Keane rather than being a superior side at the time.

Rekop dog

Blatter wrote: »

I agree with your sentiment that they shouldn't be lumped in with the greats but Bayern dominating that final probably had more to do with United missing their entire first choice CM through suspension, Scholes and Keane rather than being a superior side at the time.

There wouldn't have been much between them at full strength, Bayern went on to prove their pedigree by winning it a couple of years later. But Madrid were by far the most dominate team of that period winning it three times in a five year period, so United weren't even the best team at that time not to mind being included as one of the greatest sides ever.

Dcully

As much as i love watching Barca when they are in full flow and creating chances i equally hate watching them when faced with a solid defence.
Always looking for the perfect goal, many times lastnight i was thinking just take a pop, Iniesta was the only one to have a go from any sort of range and that was just once.
All well and good when plan A works but they dont seem to have a plan B just like when they played Chelsea last year.
Fair play to Milan, i thought they were excellent their not so young midfield was outstanding.

adox

Didnt super attacking, the second coming of the messiah, Barcelona, have fewer shots than ultra defensive, park the bus, Stoke last night?

MagicIRL

adox wrote: »

Didnt super attacking, the second coming of the messiah, Barcelona, have fewer shots than ultra defensive, park the bus, Stoke last night?

In English please?

CR 7

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Important to note that Barcelona probably are the best thing to ever happen to football.

Andersonisgod

CR 7 wrote: »

The irony is that your username and profile pic are of Ronaldo, a player hardly a stranger to feigning injury.

Moneymaker

Rekop dog wrote: »

There wouldn't have been much between them at full strength, Bayern went on to prove their pedigree by winning it a couple of years later. But Madrid were by far the most dominate team of that period winning it three times in a five year period, so United weren't even the best team at that time not to mind being included as one of the greatest sides ever.

Fair shout. That Madrid side was outstanding.

jmayo

Andersonisgod wrote: »

No of course not, but to be an integral part of a side that has not only won one, but three on the bounce would be a certain indication that you are a special footballer. What other player in the history of the game has won as much as Gerard Pique but has been an average player? You make it sound as if he is just some random lad they plucked off the street, stuck a jersey on him and told him to play, he's been a key part of Barcelona and Spain's success at the heart of the defence. While he might be lucky to have Xavi, Busquets, Iniesta and Fabregas ahead of him, all of those players are lucky to have Pique behind them.

Ah ffs can you not get it through your head that Barca don't have good actual defensive centre halfs, maybe apart from Puyol.
They actually don't need them until they run into a team like Milan, Inter or Chelsea who defend, but then actually use the ball when they manage to get it on the odd occassion and have class forwarders who can punish cr** defenders .

As an example how many other teams would have the luxury of having Mascherano as a centre half ?

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Read the reaction to the game in the newspapers across Europe, they were certainly very defensive tactics on display from Milan last night, a consensus practically everyone agrees with.

No one is disgreeing, they were defensive.
Should they have left themsleves wide open to one of the best central midfield passing teams in the world and the current best player in the world ?
But when Milan got the ball they used it and actually managed to open up Barca.
If they were just playing the so called "park the bus" stuff they would have just humped the ball up the field and hope for the best.
And they definetly wouldn't have gotten people forward into the box like the three guys that created the second goal.

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Did I say I want all out attack? Please show me that quote. I did say I'd rather a team that tries to play. that tales the game to the opposition. That isn't all out attack, that's simply a side that has in ingrained in them to play the right way.

Ahh FFS Milan did play.
Ah forget it you have barca and it appears all their players on a pedestal and everyone else appears to be inferior in your eyes.
BTW who said it is the right way to play ?
YOU ?
Is it the right way to play to try and walk the ball into the goal, not take shots, not use a proper centre forward who wingers can whip crosses into ?

Andersonisgod wrote: »

What national side is greater? Euro 2008, World Cup 2010, Euro 2012 and all in a most admirable fashion, Euro 2012 even without a striker.

How many goals did Spain score in those wins (don#'t count Irish match) ?
They often stiffled opposition and often just won 1-0
What about West Germany ?
1972 Euro Champs
1974 WC champs
1976 Euro finalists lost on penalties

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Why can't this Barcelona side be considered the greatest team ever? In it's ranks is, arguably, the greatest footballer ever in Lionel Messi and arguably two of the greatest midfielders ever in Xavi and Iniesta.
That's not to mention a sublime supporting cast like Busquets, Fabregas, Pedro, Villa, Puyol, Valdes, Alves, Pique ect. It's a team that has swept all before them at club level and done it in a manner never seen before.

Messi is the greatest player at the moment but IMHO no way is he the greatest player ever.
At least not yet.
Compared to previous great players he has huge advantages that they never enjoyed.
The likes of Pele, Maradona, Puskas, Di Stefono, Best, Cruyff were not protected like today.
Those players had lunatic defenders trying their best to not alone injure them but end their careers. In some cases they actually were getting away with GBH.
Check out how Belgium and Italy marked Maradona in the 82 WC.
Gentile later admitted that he should have been sent off many times over.
Check out how he was marked and challenged when he played for Barca.
Check out how Pele had lumps kicked out of him in 66 WC by Hungary and Portugal.

Has Messi ever had to endure that type of treatment ?
No he hasn't because nowadays what passes for a tackle is like a fondle to what happened years ago.
Thus Messi can play more freely in an enviroment where he isn't worried about a Goikoetxea breaking his ankles or a Joao Morais trying to chop his legs off from behind.
Also if you compare Maradona to Messi, Maradona almost single handed dragged teams to titles.
He didn't have, as you actually admit, some of the best playes of their generation around him.

Valdes ?????
Pedro ????
Ahh FFS you are now tearing the ar** out of it.

I suppose you reckon that the Barca water boy is also the best in the world. :rolleyes:

No one is denying this Barca side is the best of this generation, but claiming they are best ever is being disrespectful to all those great teams that came before and actually laid the foundations for this team.

And you claiming that because they are so dominant means that all their players are thus the best is frankly idiotic and shows you can't actually see or be bothered seeing all other teams and their players.

carlop

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Read the reaction to the game in the newspapers across Europe, they were certainly very defensive tactics on display from Milan last night, a consensus practically everyone agrees with.

Did I say I want all out attack? Please show me that quote. I did say I'd rather a team that tries to play. that tales the game to the opposition. That isn't all out attack, that's simply a side that has in ingrained in them to play the right way.

I should probably let a sleeping thread lie but this idea of expecting teams to play in a certain way drives me mental.

Let me qualify my post by saying that I have huge respect for Barcelona and if forced to choose between them or Real Madrid I would go for the former. I also agree that they are probably the greatest club side in history, although it's certainly open for debate.

Living in Spain, I unfortunately have to endure Spanish commentary, something which makes Clive Tyldsley sound like Switzerland. People may have seen this mentioned on twitter on Tuesday night, but Albert Luque's commentary for Malaga-Porto was ridiculous. Everything he said was along the lines of 'Come on Isco, you can do this,' or 'Let's go lads, now's our chance,' any illusion of impartiality thrown out the window.

This is worse when the big two or national team play. Everytime a foreign team is playing Barca at some point during the game the commentator will break into a soliloquy on the sad state of football in England/Italy/wherever due to the fact that the team has set itself up to defensively counter what they are always willing to describe as the greatest attack in history.

They seem to actually take offence to teams that don't turn up, play football for 20 minutes and then lube up and take a pounding for 70, allowing the viewer to fawn over the brilliance of this Spanish generation. If they can cut to Alonso, Contador or Nadal in the crowd even better!

Why the fcuk would any team try to outplay Barcelona in a football match or try to put up possession stats in the high 40s when this has been repeatedly proven to fail time and time again? And more importantly, why should they be expected to?

I grew up hating Milan and liking Barca, but for this reason (along with the pleasure in seeing an upset) I was delighted that Milan won on Wednesday.

wadacrack

jmayo wrote: »

Ah ffs can you not get it through your head that Barca don't have good actual defensive centre halfs, maybe apart from Puyol.
They actually don't need them until they run into a team like Milan, Inter or Chelsea who defend, but then actually use the ball when they manage to get it on the odd occassion and have class forwarders who can punish cr** defenders .

As an example how many other teams would have the luxury of having Mascherano as a centre half ?



No one is disgreeing, they were defensive.
Should they have left themsleves wide open to one of the best central midfield passing teams in the world and the current best player in the world ?
But when Milan got the ball they used it and actually managed to open up Barca.
If they were just playing the so called "park the bus" stuff they would have just humped the ball up the field and hope for the best.
And they definetly wouldn't have gotten people forward into the box like the three guys that created the second goal.



Ahh FFS Milan did play.
Ah forget it you have barca and it appears all their players on a pedestal and everyone else appears to be inferior in your eyes.
BTW who said it is the right way to play ?
YOU ?
Is it the right way to play to try and walk the ball into the goal, not take shots, not use a proper centre forward who wingers can whip crosses into ?



How many goals did Spain score in those wins (don#'t count Irish match) ?
They often stiffled opposition and often just won 1-0
What about West Germany ?
1972 Euro Champs
1974 WC champs
1976 Euro finalists lost on penalties



Messi is the greatest player at the moment but IMHO no way is he the greatest player ever.
At least not yet.
Compared to previous great players he has huge advantages that they never enjoyed.
The likes of Pele, Maradona, Puskas, Di Stefono, Best, Cruyff were not protected like today.
Those players had lunatic defenders trying their best to not alone injure them but end their careers. In some cases they actually were getting away with GBH.
Check out how Belgium and Italy marked Maradona in the 82 WC.
Gentile later admitted that he should have been sent off many times over.
Check out how he was marked and challenged when he played for Barca.
Check out how Pele had lumps kicked out of him in 66 WC by Hungary and Portugal.

Has Messi ever had to endure that type of treatment ?
No he hasn't because nowadays what passes for a tackle is like a fondle to what happened years ago.
Thus Messi can play more freely in an enviroment where he isn't worried about a Goikoetxea breaking his ankles or a Joao Morais trying to chop his legs off from behind.
Also if you compare Maradona to Messi, Maradona almost single handed dragged teams to titles.
He didn't have, as you actually admit, some of the best playes of their generation around him.

Valdes ?????
Pedro ????
Ahh FFS you are now tearing the ar** out of it.

I suppose you reckon that the Barca water boy is also the best in the world. :rolleyes:

No one is denying this Barca side is the best of this generation, but claiming they are best ever is being disrespectful to all those great teams that came before and actually laid the foundations for this team.

And you claiming that because they are so dominant means that all their players are thus the best is frankly idiotic and shows you can't actually see or be bothered seeing all other teams and their players.

lol being disrespectful. Every person is gonna have an opinion on the greatest sides and players of all time. It is very difficult to compare different generations as football has evolved in many ways. Much more money is involved players are now much more athletic than 50 years ago. its almost like a different game from 20 yaers ago which makes it difficlut to compare. However i do think Barca have been the best taem of the last 5 yaers but their invincibility is waning

LuckyLloyd

Real Madrid at the turn of the century: 3 CLs out of 5
Liverpool 1977 - 1985: 4 CLs out of 8; runners up once
Milan 2003 - 2007: 2 CLs out of 5; runners up once
Milan 1988 - 1995: 3 CLs out of 7; runners up twice

Barcelona 2005 - 2012: 3 CLs out of 7;

Changed the way football is played? Have Utd changed their approach during this spell? No. Real? No. Bayern Munich? No.

They're just one of the great teams. Some other team will come along in a decade or two and knock your socks off (if we're around to see it).

eagle eye

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Real Madrid at the turn of the century: 3 CLs out of 5
Liverpool 1977 - 1985: 4 CLs out of 8; runners up once
Milan 2003 - 2007: 2 CLs out of 5; runners up once
Milan 1988 - 1995: 3 CLs out of 7; runners up twice

Barcelona 2005 - 2012: 3 CLs out of 7;

Changed the way football is played? Have Utd changed their approach during this spell? Yes. Real? No. Bayern Munich? No.

They're just one of the great teams. Some other team will come along in a decade or two and knock your socks off (if we're around to see it).

United have definitely changed their approach in recent seasons. Just look at the change with the full backs who are getting into the box regularly now. 4-2-3-1 is the preferred formation now and it was 4-4-2 up to recently.

Blatter

eagle eye wrote: »

United have definitely changed their approach in recent seasons. Just look at the change with the full backs who are getting into the box regularly now. 4-2-3-1 is the preferred formation now and it was 4-4-2 up to recently.

It's not a change in approach that was influenced by Barca though, which is the point Lloyd was making.

eagle eye

Blatter wrote: »

It's not a change in approach that was influenced by Barca though, which is the point Lloyd was making.

I think it is. They have always struggled against Barca and I think getting owned in the CL final a couple of years ago made Ferguson look at changing things.

We don't know that for sure but its since then that Ferguson has started changing things at United.

Blatter

eagle eye wrote: »

I think it is. They have always struggled against Barca and I think getting owned in the CL final a couple of years ago made Ferguson look at changing things.

We don't know that for sure but its since then that Ferguson has started changing things at United.

Not really. He had changed things prior to meeting Barca in '09, he had been trying out the defensive, counter attacking 4-3-3 for years before hand in different games.

Also the 4-4-1-1 was used a lot before as well. In 02/03 the first choice side at the time had Scholes playing off van Nistelrooy.

dfx-

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Real Madrid at the turn of the century: 3 CLs out of 5
Liverpool 1977 - 1985: 4 CLs out of 8; runners up once
Milan 2003 - 2007: 2 CLs out of 5; runners up once
Milan 1988 - 1995: 3 CLs out of 7; runners up twice

Barcelona 2005 - 2012: 3 CLs out of 7;

Changed the way football is played? Have Utd changed their approach during this spell? No. Real? No. Bayern Munich? No.

They're just one of the great teams. Some other team will come along in a decade or two and knock your socks off (if we're around to see it).

They generally don't do well in February either. Sure you can't be considered a great team if you don't play well in February.

They've five/six CL semi finals in a row..and five/six league championships including three in a row and two in a row on separate occasions since 2004, losing another on head-to-head. And all six possible competitions won for the 08/09 season. Nothing can ever overcome winning every possible competition. Across now three/four managers.

Barcelona win plenty too.

Andersonisgod

jmayo wrote: »

Ah ffs can you not get it through your head that Barca don't have good actual defensive centre halfs, maybe apart from Puyol.
They actually don't need them until they run into a team like Milan, Inter or Chelsea who defend, but then actually use the ball when they manage to get it on the odd occassion and have class forwarders who can punish cr** defenders .

As an example how many other teams would have the luxury of having Mascherano as a centre half ?



No one is disgreeing, they were defensive.
Should they have left themsleves wide open to one of the best central midfield passing teams in the world and the current best player in the world ?
But when Milan got the ball they used it and actually managed to open up Barca.
If they were just playing the so called "park the bus" stuff they would have just humped the ball up the field and hope for the best.
And they definetly wouldn't have gotten people forward into the box like the three guys that created the second goal.



Ahh FFS Milan did play.
Ah forget it you have barca and it appears all their players on a pedestal and everyone else appears to be inferior in your eyes.
BTW who said it is the right way to play ?
YOU ?
Is it the right way to play to try and walk the ball into the goal, not take shots, not use a proper centre forward who wingers can whip crosses into ?



How many goals did Spain score in those wins (don#'t count Irish match) ?
They often stiffled opposition and often just won 1-0
What about West Germany ?
1972 Euro Champs
1974 WC champs
1976 Euro finalists lost on penalties



Messi is the greatest player at the moment but IMHO no way is he the greatest player ever.
At least not yet.
Compared to previous great players he has huge advantages that they never enjoyed.
The likes of Pele, Maradona, Puskas, Di Stefono, Best, Cruyff were not protected like today.
Those players had lunatic defenders trying their best to not alone injure them but end their careers. In some cases they actually were getting away with GBH.
Check out how Belgium and Italy marked Maradona in the 82 WC.
Gentile later admitted that he should have been sent off many times over.
Check out how he was marked and challenged when he played for Barca.
Check out how Pele had lumps kicked out of him in 66 WC by Hungary and Portugal.

Has Messi ever had to endure that type of treatment ?
No he hasn't because nowadays what passes for a tackle is like a fondle to what happened years ago.
Thus Messi can play more freely in an enviroment where he isn't worried about a Goikoetxea breaking his ankles or a Joao Morais trying to chop his legs off from behind.
Also if you compare Maradona to Messi, Maradona almost single handed dragged teams to titles.
He didn't have, as you actually admit, some of the best playes of their generation around him.

Valdes ?????
Pedro ????
Ahh FFS you are now tearing the ar** out of it.

I suppose you reckon that the Barca water boy is also the best in the world. :rolleyes:

No one is denying this Barca side is the best of this generation, but claiming they are best ever is being disrespectful to all those great teams that came before and actually laid the foundations for this team.

And you claiming that because they are so dominant means that all their players are thus the best is frankly idiotic and shows you can't actually see or be bothered seeing all other teams and their players.

Right. I'll begin. First point, Barcelona don't have centre backs. Wrong. They do have centre backs, however these centre backs play in a different way than is the norm in Europe. They play high up the pitch, they occasionally split to allow Busquets to operate as a third centre back. They have the freedom to carry the ball out from the back. Despite all of that, they are centre backs and their primary job is to stop the opposition scoring. Funny you should question Pique's ability as a centre back the season after Euro 2012, a tournament in which Spain played as deep a block as they have since 2008.

Mascherano understands closing down space, of pressing the opposition in midfield areas and has the pace to recover in behind him. He has done a fine job at centre back for Barcelona.

Over 2 legs Chelsea scored 3 goals against Barcelona. Did they park the bus?

You mean keeping the ball, working angles, intricate football which requires optimum technical ability and skill to produce isn't the right way to play?

Why would the amount of goals they scored matter? They've won three major tournaments in a row, they've done it in astounding fashion, their latest they even did without a striker. Would you bet against them winning the World Cup? Very good, however West Germany didn't win 3 in a row.

lol what a ridiculous reasoning as to why he isn't the best. That's simply a circumstance of the era those players played in. I could quite easily argue that those players were not as fit as Messi, not as nimble or athletic as Messi who has benefited from developments in sport science. That's every bit as much a circumstance of time as your example. I would also argue that those players you list (with the possible exception of Maradonna) would have played against far less defenders than Messi does on a weekly basis, given that teams back then played with far more attackers than defenders, I would even argue that some of them played at a time when pressing the ball didn't even occur. So yes while Messi is given protection by referees (as all skillful players should be) he also must deal with 10 men behind the ball and aggressive pressing, something none of those players would have played against.

Whats wrong with Valdes? I'd have him in my top 5 keepers in the world right now. Pedro is a wonderful team player, offering great balance to the Barcelona side and has been an important player for Spain.

Why is it disrespectful? Someone has to be the best, why can't it be this Barcelona team?

Every tournament they conquer, every game they win, every goal meticulously scored is a hammer to the heart of those who would encourage anti-football. This Barcelona side is the very representation of all that is good in the game.

Andersonisgod

carlop wrote: »

I should probably let a sleeping thread lie but this idea of expecting teams to play in a certain way drives me mental.

Let me qualify my post by saying that I have huge respect for Barcelona and if forced to choose between them or Real Madrid I would go for the former. I also agree that they are probably the greatest club side in history, although it's certainly open for debate.

Living in Spain, I unfortunately have to endure Spanish commentary, something which makes Clive Tyldsley sound like Switzerland. People may have seen this mentioned on twitter on Tuesday night, but Albert Luque's commentary for Malaga-Porto was ridiculous. Everything he said was along the lines of 'Come on Isco, you can do this,' or 'Let's go lads, now's our chance,' any illusion of impartiality thrown out the window.

This is worse when the big two or national team play. Everytime a foreign team is playing Barca at some point during the game the commentator will break into a soliloquy on the sad state of football in England/Italy/wherever due to the fact that the team has set itself up to defensively counter what they are always willing to describe as the greatest attack in history.

They seem to actually take offence to teams that don't turn up, play football for 20 minutes and then lube up and take a pounding for 70, allowing the viewer to fawn over the brilliance of this Spanish generation. If they can cut to Alonso, Contador or Nadal in the crowd even better!

Why the fcuk would any team try to outplay Barcelona in a football match or try to put up possession stats in the high 40s when this has been repeatedly proven to fail time and time again? And more importantly, why should they be expected to?

I grew up hating Milan and liking Barca, but for this reason (along with the pleasure in seeing an upset) I was delighted that Milan won on Wednesday.

I agree with their sentiment that it is a shame that we don't see more teams trying to play. These big teams who have spent huge money to assemble their squads sitting back and playing counter attacking football. This Barcelona team represents an ideal, a philosophy, one which I believe is the correct one in football. Their style of play is admirable, it brings with it risks but they have reaped the rewards. Why shouldn't their fellow countrymen be proud of some of the greatest sporting heroes their country has ever produced?

Blatter

Andersonisgod wrote: »

I agree with their sentiment that it is a shame that we don't see more teams trying to play. These big teams who have spent huge money to assemble their squads sitting back and playing counter attacking football. This Barcelona team represents an ideal, a philosophy, one which I believe is the correct one in football. Their style of play is admirable, it brings with it risks but they have reaped the rewards. Why shouldn't their fellow countrymen be proud of some of the greatest sporting heroes their country has ever produced?

You're a Chelsea fan, right?

Here's a question; In the semi final of the CL last season would you have preferred your club to attack Barca head on by playing the game the 'right way' or actually give themselves a chance of winning the tie by playing the way they did?

Andersonisgod

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Real Madrid at the turn of the century: 3 CLs out of 5
Liverpool 1977 - 1985: 4 CLs out of 8; runners up once
Milan 2003 - 2007: 2 CLs out of 5; runners up once
Milan 1988 - 1995: 3 CLs out of 7; runners up twice

Barcelona 2005 - 2012: 3 CLs out of 7;

Changed the way football is played? Have Utd changed their approach during this spell? No. Real? No. Bayern Munich? No.

They're just one of the great teams. Some other team will come along in a decade or two and knock your socks off (if we're around to see it).

Real Madrid have been forced to up their game considerably since the rise of Barcelona. All teams must raise their standards since the emergence of this Barcelona team. The greater importance put on possession is evident in any top European league, the greater success of smaller playmakers is another consequence of Barcelona.

Since 2008-2009 it's 3 La Liga's, 2 Champions League's, 2 Copa Del Rey's, 2 World Club Championships and it looks like a 4th La Liga is on the way. Also I wouldn't rule them out of winning the Champions League this season.

castletownman

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Right. I'll begin. First point, Barcelona don't have centre backs. Wrong. They do have centre backs, however these centre backs play in a different way than is the norm in Europe. They play high up the pitch, they occasionally split to allow Busquets to operate as a third centre back. They have the freedom to carry the ball out from the back. Despite all of that, they are centre backs and their primary job is to stop the opposition scoring. Funny you should question Pique's ability as a centre back the season after Euro 2012, a tournament in which Spain played as deep a block as they have since 2008.

Mascherano understands closing down space, of pressing the opposition in midfield areas and has the pace to recover in behind him. He has done a fine job at centre back for Barcelona.

Over 2 legs Chelsea scored 3 goals against Barcelona. Did they park the bus?

You mean keeping the ball, working angles, intricate football which requires optimum technical ability and skill to produce isn't the right way to play?

Why would the amount of goals they scored matter? They've won three major tournaments in a row, they've done it in astounding fashion, their latest they even did without a striker. Would you bet against them winning the World Cup? Very good, however West Germany didn't win 3 in a row.

lol what a ridiculous reasoning as to why he isn't the best. That's simply a circumstance of the era those players played in. I could quite easily argue that those players were not as fit as Messi, not as nimble or athletic as Messi who has benefited from developments in sport science. That's every bit as much a circumstance of time as your example. I would also argue that those players you list (with the possible exception of Maradonna) would have played against far less defenders than Messi does on a weekly basis, given that teams back then played with far more attackers than defenders, I would even argue that some of them played at a time when pressing the ball didn't even occur. So yes while Messi is given protection by referees (as all skillful players should be) he also must deal with 10 men behind the ball and aggressive pressing, something none of those players would have played against.

Whats wrong with Valdes? I'd have him in my top 5 keepers in the world right now. Pedro is a wonderful team player, offering great balance to the Barcelona side and has been an important player for Spain.

Why is it disrespectful? Someone has to be the best, why can't it be this Barcelona team?

Every tournament they conquer, every game they win, every goal meticulously scored is a hammer to the heart of those who would encourage anti-football. This Barcelona side is the very representation of all that is good in the game.

I've just copped it. You ARE Graham Hunter. With that realisation I'm out.

Andersonisgod

Blatter wrote: »

You're a Chelsea fan, right?

Here's a question; In the semi final of the CL last season would you have preferred your club to attack Barca head on by playing the game the 'right way' or actually give themselves a chance of winning the tie by playing the way they did?

To be honest my view of both games and indeed that entire Champions League were completely distorted by my (slightly unhealthy) love of Didier Drogba. Seeing Drogba (my all time favourite player) single handedly drag a team to a tournament which had been so painful to Chelsea the previous years and to Drogba himself was almost a vindication, a really wonderful sporting triumph.