Petsafe Wireless Containment system

ISDW

siralan wrote: »

To anyone who thinks a collar is in anyway cruel, try taking your dog off the road 5 mins after its been crossed by a lorry. I have no embarrassment in saying it was probably one of the saddest moments I ever experienced a few years ago. Hence our decision to put a collar on our dog now. We all heard many stories of dogs rambling and killing sheep or getting shot by farmers protecting their sheep.

And most of us have also heard the stories of the large amount of dogs that end up in pounds still wearing the collars. Or of the dogs shot in a field of sheep, still wearing their electric collar. I had a call from a distraught woman a couple of years ago, both of her huskies had electric collars and the local farmer brought their bodies back to her, they had been shot in his field full of sheep. She wanted to adopt another husky, and was putting fencing up instead of the collars, she was inconsolable.

Nody

siralan wrote: »

To anyone who thinks a collar is in anyway cruel, try taking your dog off the road 5 mins after its been crossed by a lorry. I have no embarrassment in saying it was probably one of the saddest moments I ever experienced a few years ago. Hence our decision to put a collar on our dog now. We all heard many stories of dogs rambling and killing sheep or getting shot by farmers protecting their sheep.

How about being a responsible owner and actually train your dog and fence in the area instead of relying on a insecure, crude and cruel tool trying to do the job for you?

DBB

Nody, we can all make our point without casting aspersions on one's dog owning capabilities.
Let's keep it civil, please.
Do not reply to this post on-thread.
Thanks,
DBB

TooManyDogs

Yep back in my ignorant days I also had these collars and 2 would always break out. So that made it only 50% effective, now I have a proper fence, no more problem

The Bishop Basher

I've seen them used effectively with no adverse effects on the dogs whatsoever. I've also seen them used where they just had no effect at all and as such were useless. I agree with the poster above who says it depends on the breed and the temperament of the dog.

While I broadly agree with not using pain to teach dogs I also think we have taken some of these theory's too far in this PC world. I've raised many dogs over the years and in the good old days I house trained them by shoving their nose in it and giving them a smack. They were still all happy healthy dogs and I had a fantastic lifelong relationship with all of them. I know better now and use different methods but I do often wonder have we taken some of it too far. Even humans learn what to avoid through painful stimuli. I've often let my kids do something daft where I know the outcome will teach them a life long lesson. It's how we learn.

I also know the heartache of picking your dead pet up off the road. I saw it happen to my own and thank god no one was hurt. Fences are great and should be a first line of defence but it's not always practical for everyone and I have yet to own a dog that won't find a way through sooner or later.

Anyway different strokes for different folks. Just my 2 cents.

andreac

Swanner wrote: »

Fences are great and should be a first line of defence but it's not always practical for everyone and I have yet to own a dog that won't find a way through sooner or later.

Anyway different strokes for different folks. Just my 2 cents.

If its not practical, or the basic thing you can provide for your dog, ie repsonsible, safe containment, then you shouldnt get a dog, end of.

People are too quick to take the easy way out for themselves and look for quick, easy options to save them time and money, which for most of the time, means the poor dog is the one that always suffers for it

snoman

posters who use the phrase 'end of' are not in the business of exchanging opinions, only of imposing them.

The Bishop Basher

andreac wrote: »

If its not practical, or the basic thing you can provide for your dog, ie repsonsible, safe containment, then you shouldnt get a dog, end of.

People are too quick to take the easy way out for themselves and look for quick, easy options to save them time and money, which for most of the time, means the poor dog is the one that always suffers for it

I would say the basic things I provide for my dogs are food, shelter and love so we differ on that. I also have fencing installed and have a safe environment for my dogs to enjoy. Unfortunatley however I don't live in a perfect world. All sorts of things happen around my fence. Wild animals burrow in and out. Other people come in and out and can leave gates open which is how a previous dog was killed, and dogs, being dogs, can and will on occasion find a way out. It's what they do.

I haven't seen anyone looking for an easy or cheap way out of anything on this thread. Opinions can and will differ on certain topics. That's ok. It doesn't however give any poster a monopoly on what's right and wrong.

andreac

If you get a dog you are responsible for its well being and safety and that means providing adequate, responsible and humane methods of containment which does not include giving your dog electric shocks.

When i say end of, i mean you should ensure that you can keep your dog safe by resonsible means and one that doesnt inflict pain on it. An electric shock collar is not one of these and how anyone can actual use one on their beloved pets doesnt deserve one in the first place, in my opinion.
Would you shock you children with collars for running outside of the garden when they arent suppsoed to go that far etc etc? No, so why would you think its ok to do it on a defenceless animal and see and hear them cry in pain when they are shocked.

andreac

CJhaughey wrote: »

OP You would be better off asking in the Hunting forum, there are a lot of dog owners there that happily use these with working dogs and have no issues, this forum is populated by many who anthropomorphise their animals and have difficulties with those that don't.

Why do think its ok to give your dog an electric shock and inflict pain on it?

snoman

I defend absolutely your right to have your opinion, to express it and to defend it. Indeed, broadly speaking, I agree with you. I also feel that these forums work best on the basis of people expressing both sides of the argument and allowing others to make up their own minds. There are certain phrases that just mean 'end of discussion'.

Whilst there is discussion there is hope of change.

andreac

But snoman, when a pets welfare comes into it, and someone wants to use a piece of equipment that intentionally inflicts pain and hurts a dog, i really dont understand how someone can defend these items, i really dont.

The Bishop Basher

andreac wrote: »

Would you shock you children with collars for running outside of the garden when they arent suppsoed to go that far etc etc? No, so why would you think its ok to do it on a defenceless animal and see and hear them cry in pain when they are shocked.

But we're not talking about children. We're talking about dogs. I made the comparison in a previous post on the basis that what's good enough for my kids is good enough for my dogs. That doesn't work the other way round though.

I have never seen a dog yelp in pain from one of these systems. I have seen them recoil from the fence in the same way a cow or horse will recoil from an electric fence. The same way my child will recoil when they touch something hot.

I suppose where we differ is that some people consider this cruelty. I don't. I just think a sense of perspective is required here.

andreac

Have you even watched the video that someone posted on this thread when people are using the collars? Please watch it and tell me that the dogs are not in pain...

Just because you havent seen a dog yourself yelp in pain doesnt mean others dont yelp in pain. Its a shock, how could it be any way pleasant?

There are no need for these things when there are plenty of other safe and humane ways to contain your dog. They are a lazy way out for the dog owner, not for the poor dogs though.

DBB

CJhaughey wrote: »

OP You would be better off asking in the Hunting forum, there are a lot of dog owners there that happily use these with working dogs and have no issues, this forum is populated by many who anthropomorphise their animals and have difficulties with those that don't.

CJhaughey, do not come into this forum again if your sole aim is to scorn the users of the forum. Consider this a final warning.
Do not reply to this post on thread.
Thanks,
DBB

snoman

andreac wrote: »

But snoman, when a pets welfare comes into it, and someone wants to use a piece of equipment that intentionally inflicts pain and hurts a dog, i really dont understand how someone can defend these items, i really dont.

The problem with pet welfare is that it is an extremely emotive subject. Experienced, seasoned contributers to these forums can have strong and, sometimes, explosive responses to a query that is posted. In my opinion people can be influenced and learn in this forum (I have), but only if they remain on it. If a new OP gets an agressive response then you lose them, if you can engage them in discussion you can sway them.

Sorry, I know this is completly off subject.

2 stroke

snoman wrote: »

The problem with pet welfare is that it is an extremely emotive subject. Experienced, seasoned contributers to these forums can have strong and, sometimes, explosive responses to a query that is posted. In my opinion people can be influenced and learn in this forum (I have), but only if they remain on it. If a new OP gets an agressive response then you lose them, if you can engage them in discussion you can sway them.

Sorry, I know this is completly off subject.

I use the wired system and find it brilliant, however I train a dog to its territory before using the collar, the property is also fenced, but I worry about people leaving the gate open.
One important thing, esp if using the wired system, your property has to be big enough, mine has a warning distance of 8 feet, which is 16 feet off the width of the garden, when you add up both sides, it wouldn't leave much room for a dog in your average housing estate garden, couldn't blame him for leaving.

The Bishop Basher

andreac wrote: »

Have you even watched the video that someone posted on this thread when people are using the collars? Please watch it and tell me that the dogs are not in pain...

Just because you havent seen a dog yourself yelp in pain doesnt mean others dont yelp in pain. Its a shock, how could it be any way pleasant?

There are no need for these things when there are plenty of other safe and humane ways to contain your dog. They are a lazy way out for the dog owner, not for the poor dogs though.

Yes. I saw a bunch of humans being dramatic for their friends and for the camera. If they didn't make it look dramatic it wouldn't be entertainment and there wouldn't be much point posting it. It's not exactly proof of anything.

I have also watched the numerous videos of people using these collars to successfully train happy and healthy dogs. The difference being I have looked at them objectively.

I'm not saying one is right and one is wrong. I'm saying we should view these topics with a little perspective and an open mind.

andreac

Oh yeah, thats typical of someone who doesnt want to believe these are cruel and inflict pain on animals. They are being dramatic. Didnt look dramatic to me, they look genuinely in pain.

An open mind when it comes to animal cruelty?? There should only be one view of it and that its wrong.

God i feel sorry for anyones pet who's owner uses these on them, and thats the last i have to say now in this thread, im out.

borderlinemeath

2 stroke wrote: »

I use the wired system and find it brilliant, however I train a dog to its territory before using the collar, the property is also fenced, but I worry about people leaving the gate open.
One important thing, esp if using the wired system, your property has to be big enough, mine has a warning distance of 8 feet, which is 16 feet off the width of the garden, when you add up both sides, it wouldn't leave much room for a dog in your average housing estate garden, couldn't blame him for leaving.

No matter how well you think you might train a dog - the risk is always there that the prey on the other side of the fence is worth the pain. Problem is, what's the incentive to get back in? None.

There's far too much risk involved using an electric fence, risk that the dog will take the pain and break through the fence, risk that they are clever enough to wear down the battery and go through pain free, risk that they get a shock and they don't know what it is and they lash out and bite the nearest person/animal, risk that it will make them so nervous of entering and exiting their own gate without associating it with the collar.

The Bishop Basher

andreac wrote: »

Oh yeah, thats typical of someone who doesnt want to believe these are cruel and inflict pain on animals. They are being dramatic. Didnt look dramatic to me, they look genuinely in pain.

No. It's someone taking an objective view of a video designed for entertainment.

andreac wrote: »

An open mind when it comes to animal cruelty?? There should only be one view of it and that its wrong.

Agreed.

andreac wrote: »

God i feel sorry for anyones pet who's owner uses these on them, and thats the last i have to say now in this thread, im out.

Fair enough. We can agree to disagree.

borderlinemeath wrote: »

There's far too much risk involved using an electric fence, risk that the dog will take the pain and break through the fence, risk that they are clever enough to wear down the battery and go through pain free, risk that they get a shock and they don't know what it is and they lash out and bite the nearest person/animal, risk that it will make them so nervous of entering and exiting their own gate without associating it with the collar.

Plenty of well put, rational and non emotive reasons there for not using one.

snoman

To go back to the beginning. I think I would build a dog enclosure that would be smaller than the garden boundary for when the dog/s are on their own, and only let them out into the wider garden under supervision. I never really allow my two out 'by themselves'. I would not use the the electric coller system because I cannot see that they are reliable (My boy has high prey drive and I'm pretty sure would go straight through it), and anyway I have an ethical opposition to them.

looking_around

I use the electric fence collars. For some dogs it doesn't work, or maybe it's who's teaching them. My partner has a husky and some large lab cross. Both dogs know the fence boundary perfectly well, the husky actually pushes it to the limit of fast beeps and not a step further.

They are not afraid of the garden or collars and are happy dogs.

Against other posters about pain, I have gotten shocked by the collars myself. to see just how bad they are, there are different settings, there's even a setting of just beeping, no shocks. Also remember to test the shocks both on direct skin and through a jumper. The Husky has a really think coat, the cross not so much. And yes coat thickness makes a difference.

It has completely stopped the dogs running out on to the road. And we have used them for about 4/5 years now.

When I moved in with partner, I got a v.small/weak collar for my Pom cross. Again, I tested the collar myself. The shock was no more than a light pinch. Like tapping a childs hand and saying no. Want me to youtube just how "painful" they are?.

Apart from that, all 3 dogs have the collars on loosely. In fact, the lab cross, doesn't even need a collar. Will not leave the garden on his own at all. (And they have had many tempting circumstances.)

My parents also use these shock collars for 2 sheep dogs, they got the wired fence less than half price. Try building a secure boundary around 1 and half acres for that price!

DBB

I hope I can contribute to this thread in a way that will give the advocates of shock-collars pause for thought.

For those who say they know X dog who is fine and happy etc with the radio collar on, I can give you an example of at least one more dog who is not.
One of the problems with these threads is that someone always knows an exception, someone will always tell you about their Great Auntie Matilda's dog who wore a shock collar/choke chain/prong collar etc and the dog was fine. Someone always knows someone who uses Alpha Rolls, dominance, and pack leadership approaches which work (or, at least, appear to work).
In threads where a poster asks what is "X" breed like around children, and is told they're generally not good around children, there's always one poster who's Great Auntie Matilda had a dog of that breed who ADORED children. In one fell swoop, such posters are utterly denouncing what has been proven, scientifically, because they know one, or a few dogs out of millions, who are the exception, and they base their entire opinion one just this tiny, unrepresentative sample.
But this anecdotal, individual experience just does not cut the mustard, on either side of the argument, and looking at the Big Picture, should not be used to draw any conclusions about the rights and wrongs of using certain gear, or using certain approaches to training. Is it right for anyone to wax lyrical about a certain piece of gear, extolling its virtues, when their experience of it is limited to only a handful of dogs? Of course not.

Individual experiences are interesting, but they are not representative, and they certainly should not be used by a wider audience to base their judgement on whether, in this case, they are addressing animal welfare issues sufficiently, or not.

Yes, animal welfare is emotive, but it is also a science, and it is measurable. With dogs, it is a growing science, one that has really expanded in the past 10 years or so. It is this research that has made enlightened trainers (and owners) review what they were at, acknowledge that the anecdotal evidence they'd been basing their methods on was misguided, and start to utilise what we now understand, based on evidence-based research, about how dogs learn, how reinforcement works, how punishment works, and how harmful the fallout from punishment/aversion training can be.

Unfortunately, a lot of owners haven't really caught up with this research. Why? Because by and large, they are being educated by unqualified people on the TV, unqualified quacks in real-life, or by companies with vested interests, who themselves have not brought their own education up to date, and are not aware of advances made in our knowledge of behaviour, and consequently, welfare. This ignorance on the part of people who place themselves in the position of "educator" is inexcusable: they continue to use aversive training, despite there being at least one, usually more, ethical, non-punitive answer to the problem at hand.

So, back to shock collars. I have posted on this before, and I went to a fair bit of trouble to find what the scientific literature says: not anecdotal stuff now, but evidence-based, peer-reviewed research. The same level of research which we all trust when it comes to human health and welfare: I say this, because for some reason, some dog owners can be very quick to denounce what the science is telling us. I don't know why.. maybe it doesn't suit them, maybe because it goes against what the uneducated quacks have been telling them for years. Yet the same people will loyally accept what the medical research is telling us.. it's an odd phenomenon. When it comes to animals, especially dogs and horses, everyone's an expert!

In my travels through the research, I came across a review paper which encapsulates a huge amount of the research done to date on the effects of shock collars, and this has saved me having to link to a whole pile of abstracts (and I found quite a few). I also found some reports prepared for seriously respected professional animal welfare organisations.
I have failed to find any research in favour of shock-collars by the way. The only literature I can find in support of shock collars, and which downplays the proven drop in welfare of dogs who wear them, is not scientific research, and is from the companies that make and/or sell shock collars.

I'm sorry for the length of this post, but this topic comes up so, so often, and always ends up going the same way, that I felt it was time to try to explain to users of shock collars why animal welfare advocates, of which there are many on this forum (all of whom have different ways of expressing themselves:o), become so hot and bothered by posts in support of a piece of gear that is very contentious and proven to negatively affect animal welfare. I hope that those who don't understand this response, will find a way to understand it now.
To that end, I'll invite readers to take a little while out of their day to read the following links, and perhaps do some of their own research following on from this.

http://www.rspca.org.uk/ImageLocator/LocateAsset?asset=document&assetId=1232713013325&mode=prd

Also: findings of a report for the Companion Animal Welfare Council (CAWC), produced by the wonderful dog behavioural scientist Prof. Danny Mills et al in Lincoln University:
http://www.companionanimalpsychology.com/2012/10/cawc-report-on-shock-collars.html

looking_around

Well, I still feel it's important to say, I've had no negative experience with shock collars, even a friends dog, who stays here once and awhile, knows that when we say "bed" and point at the dog house, he's to stay in the garden and not go through the front gate.

It's not like I use negative reinforcement for everything, but we leave the dogs out while at work, and the shock collars(it's really worth emphasizing that it's only necessary that they only beep now). Has allowed the dogs to roam the garden/not be locked in. And for us to feel safe that they won't walk out/chase after stuff.

And it's worked a treat. but like I said on my last post, it probably depends on who's training them and how they're trained.

ISDW

looking_around wrote: »

Well, I still feel it's important to say, I've had no negative experience with shock collars, even a friends dog, who stays here once and awhile, knows that when we say "bed" and point at the dog house, he's to stay in the garden and not go through the front gate.

It's not like I use negative reinforcement for everything, but we leave the dogs out while at work, and the shock collars(it's really worth emphasizing that it's only necessary that they only beep now). Has allowed the dogs to roam the garden/not be locked in. And for us to feel safe that they won't walk out/chase after stuff.

And it's worked a treat. but like I said on my last post, it probably depends on who's training them and how they're trained.

As it won't stop someone coming into your garden and stealing your dogs, I really hope that you don't regret leaving them outside like that.

kylith

looking_around wrote: »

And it's worked a treat. but like I said on my last post, it probably depends on who's training them and how they're trained.

Not to mention breed, upbringing, temperament, and environmental factors.

It kind of reminds me of the 'letting dogs roam' argument. Everyone says 'my dog knows not to go onto the road' right up until the day the dog does, and gets killed. Everyone will say 'my dog knows not to go through the e-fence', right up until the day the dog does.

borderlinemeath

My dogs know not to go out onto the road. They're trained not to leave the property - the only time they know it's ok to leave is when they have their leads on and we're with them.

Do I trust them? Not a chance. A few years back when we only had Coco a friend of ours called to the house. When he left, the gates didn't close behind him (or we didn't press the remote properly). It was dark so we didn't notice. Shortly afterwards I let Coco out to go to the toilet, a few minutes later I got a call from my neighbour saying Coco had called around to his house! He was sitting down watching TV when she scratched at the door and she was standing their wagging her tail when he opened it! Now, she knows our neighbour very well and knows his house (he looks after them between both houses when we go on hols) so she decided that because the opportunity presented itself that she would pay him a little visit!

When I'm there they won't go through it, but if I'm not - who knows? I don't want to run the risk of scraping them off the road. There's only so much training and trust you can put in a dog and I just would not take the risk to just rely on a pain/shock inflicting system to do the job that gates and fencing do perfectly well.

DBB

looking_around wrote: »

but like I said on my last post, it probably depends on who's training them and how they're trained.

And whilst I agree that a fair amount of radio fence failures are directly connected to the dog not having gone through the recommended training protocol, again for every one of these, I can show you one, at least one, who was comprehensively trained to the radio collar. Indeed, there are a number of posters on this forum who used to use them, who are skilled trainers, and they'll tell you of the failures they've had when just the right circumstances presented themselves. I feel it's disingenuous to try to blame radio fence failure on training or lack thereof. Again, another example of anecdotal experience of a tiny number of dogs being held to apply to all.
In many cases, the dogs were reliably contained for some time, but one day, just one day the right set of circumstances happened along, resulting in a dead, injured, or lost dog. These are all risks which are negligible, even non-existent, when dogs are contained with a proper, physical boundary. The latter also negates the proven ethical concerns regarding the use of shock collars.

The Sweeper

There's a video on youtube by Scottish Akitas or somesuch, and the fella walking the akita is demonstrating the increased control he has with a remote control shock collar.

All I can think of when I watch it is if that dog saw something it wanted - small furry animal, another dog, whatever - he could be pressing that button until he was blue in the face and all he would do is make his dog go harder at whatever it was going for. Walking on deserted roads and empty fields, he can let the dog off leash and when it's at a distance and won't return when called, he can shock it to get its attention and it'll return to him.

Fact is the dog still isn't paying attention to him, he doesn't have the eye contact at a distance you need if you're controlling your dog properly, and I'm genuinely disturbed by the dog's continued insistence on not looking at him. That dog doesn't rate his owner and no amount of electrocuting it is going to make a difference.