Is multiculturalism wanted??

Nodin

Blackbush1905 wrote: »

BTW nodin back on topic, what do you think of romanian and bulgarian immigration into the republic?

Given there's little work, I doubt there'll be a vast amount of it.

Paramite Pie

SirTallaghtban wrote: »

Native Britons are a minority in London. Could be Dublin in 20 odd years.

Would you be happy with becoming a minority in your own land?

In 1596 Queen Elizabeth I became concerned with the increasing number of black people in England so she ordered that all black people be deported. She had to repeat the order in 1601, ordering her subjects to deliver up their Negroes and blackamoores

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/pathways/blackhistory/early_times/elizabeth.htm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18903391

England (like many European countries) has a long history of multiculturalism that built up over hundreds of years. This was also prior to the African slave trade so these black people probably arrived as sailors. Diminishing birthrates among white people and higher birthrates among other groups led to the massive population shift in London. Obviously England has serious problems regarding race but it ain't the same here.

Ireland only had a very small number of black people in the 1600s. Interracial marriage was not frowned upon at that time in Europe so who knows what's in your genes?:P

First of all, according to the census' taken in 2012, there are nearly 500,000 non-nationals in Ireland. Roughly 250,000 of those are British, and only 1.5% are black.

Also having spent a few months on the dole I didn't spot many foreigners claiming (nowhere near as much as urban myths claim!).

I'm well aware that a country can only accept so many people before it collapses and I agree with more stringent immigration control but why do people always imply that immigrants are all coloured when most non-nationals are white and come from the exotic locales of the UK.

(I'm not bashing our UK neighbours, just pointing out the over reaction of Irish people to coloured immigrants (and yes I know white is a colour too:P).

Blackbush1905

Nodin wrote: »

You seem to be missing my point.

What point exactly? i could not care less what people think of this country!! I like it and hate it in equal measures and thats good enough for me.

Nodin

Blackbush1905 wrote: »

What point exactly? i could not care less what people think of this country!! I like it and hate it in equal measures and thats good enough for me.

My point is that - in a similar manner to judging all residents of NI by McCrae and Fraser - you're judging Poles by these few that were near lisburn.

Blackbush1905

Nodin wrote: »

My point is that - in a similar manner to judging all residents of NI by McCrae and Fraser - you're judging Poles by these few that were near lisburn.

I'm not judging anyone, i'd rather live with a thousand jam rolls than spend 5 minutes with ANY Free P crackpot bore. I'm saying if they're staying here in those conditions rather than going back to their home country where their roots, family, friends are then there's something here that attracts them rather than jobs, work etc.

Nodin

Blackbush1905 wrote: »

I'm not judging anyone, i'd rather live with a thousand jam rolls than spend 5 minutes with ANY Free P crackpot bore. I'm saying if they're staying here in those conditions rather than going back to their home country where their roots, family, friends are then there's something here that attracts them rather than jobs, work etc.

Well, logically they aren't getting whatever it is you think they're after, because they're living in crap conditions....secondly, as its an isolated incident, its not really indicative of anything.

Blackbush1905

Nodin wrote: »

My point is that - in a similar manner to judging all residents of NI by McCrae and Fraser - you're judging Poles by these few that were near lisburn.

Just out of interest why is it when southerners think of northern ireland the people they first think of is firebrand free presbo **** like mccrae? and other such like pricks, he isn't a name in anyones head up here but brought up on a mainly southern forum, my theory is that this is the view alot of people have of "the north", makes it easy to point and say they're the bigots, load of bollocks!! its says more about alot of clueless know it alls down south who present themselves as experts on NI and its troubles by throwing about names of nomark "the earths flat" dicks than it does about your average northern irish person. It honestly comes across alot of the time as something that was taught or passed on to you maybe through school because its all very similar, you can tell a southern "nationalist" or an irish american rant straight away, but anyway where just hear to spoil your fun, tell ya not to drink on a sunday and take those six counties you dont have a clue or give a **** about off ya!!!

I'm willie mcrea and i'm an audi 5000!!

Nodin

Blackbush1905 wrote: »

Just out of(....)audi 5000!!

Well some southerners might because they employ the same "logic" towards the North as you do towards Poles.

Blackbush1905

Nodin wrote: »

Well some southerners might because they employ the same "logic" towards the North as you do towards Poles.

Aye, and there's been no animosity towards poles down south!!!

truth is you were schooled by catholic fundamentalist nuns and priests, as someone on a recent forum said "the nuns told us it was green white and gold, probably because they didn't like the thought of orange/protestant", sound familiar?

Thank **** i went to a secular primary school- not so bad for a country full of catholic hating religious bigots, and also an integrated secondary school in the middle of a loyalist area.

Is it not time use got rid of europe dropped the anti brit grudges and gave us back the occupied 26?

0066ad

Nodin wrote: »

You've some source for this?

You asked for sources, he gave you sources?

Provided the sources that you asked, your like oh **** there is sources, what
can I say now??? Oh yeah I got it they are stuck between a rock and a hard
place. The same as anybody would do.

What can I do now he got me with the source I didn't think was there??????

I know i got it, lets pick out the two most bigoted people in Northern Ireland
who happen to be in the news right now and say do you want people to
judge Northern Ireland based on just these two.

Anything to fit your own agenda, hey Nodin?

Nodin

0066ad wrote: »

You asked for (......)hey Nodin?

You seem to be unable to grasp the point as well....

Nodin

Blackbush1905 wrote: »

Aye, and there's *(..........)anti brit grudges and gave us back the occupied 26?

Whats any of that to do with the OP?

gallag

Few tents popping up about belfast now, bottom of newtownards road, apparently just a scam to get up the housing list. Also hardly a shop or set of traffic lights without roma gypsies begging out side or selling roses/pick pocketing at night. But I suppose I should just accept my country being turned into a slum and look forward to a new surge in the numbers lest I be branded a racist.

gallag

How do the Chinese do it? Nearly every city in the world has a large Chinese community and they integrate really well, a Chinese area is welcoming and the people never seem to create resentment to their presence, they seem a hard working and friendly bunch. Compare with, say roma gypsies, very few seek gainful employment, high crime, begging, cant walk past a bin without emptying it over the street and they create a hostile unwelcoming presence in the area they settle. I wonder how we are perceived over seas? Do we integrate? Do locals feel intimidated by our presence?

AlekSmart

gallag wrote: »

How do the Chinese do it? Nearly every city in the world has a large Chinese community and they integrate really well, a Chinese area is welcoming and the people never seem to create resentment to their presence, they seem a hard working and friendly bunch. Compare with, say roma gypsies, very few seek gainful employment, high crime, begging, cant walk past a bin without emptying it over the street and they create a hostile unwelcoming presence in the area they settle. I wonder how we are perceived over seas? Do we integrate? Do locals feel intimidated by our presence?

I'd imagine you'll be needing sources for these....;)

Nodin

gallag wrote: »

How do the Chinese do it? Nearly every city in the world has a large Chinese community and they integrate really well, a Chinese area is welcoming and the people never seem to create resentment to their presence, they seem a hard working and friendly bunch. Compare with, say roma gypsies, very few seek gainful employment, high crime, begging, cant walk past a bin without emptying it over the street and they create a hostile unwelcoming presence in the area they settle. I wonder how we are perceived over seas? Do we integrate? Do locals feel intimidated by our presence?

Check America in particular
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinophobia
plus
http://www.salon.com/2010/08/17/why_catholics_should_thank_anti_catholics/

woodoo

Blackbush1905 wrote: »

Just out of interest why is it when southerners think of northern ireland the people they first think of is firebrand free presbo **** like mccrae? and other such like pricks, he isn't a name in anyones head up here but brought up on a mainly southern forum, my theory is that this is the view alot of people have of "the north", makes it easy to point and say they're the bigots, load of bollocks!! its says more about alot of clueless know it alls down south who present themselves as experts on NI and its troubles by throwing about names of nomark "the earths flat" dicks than it does about your average northern irish person. It honestly comes across alot of the time as something that was taught or passed on to you maybe through school because its all very similar, you can tell a southern "nationalist" or an irish american rant straight away, but anyway where just hear to spoil your fun, tell ya not to drink on a sunday and take those six counties you dont have a clue or give a **** about off ya!!!

I'm willie mcrea and i'm an audi 5000!!

Willie mccrea was on our screens for years and he sticks in the memory as one of the most unlikable people i have ever seen. He had all the bad points of a complete bigot but no redeeming features he had no charisma, wasn't funny or entertaining etc. He banged on and on about republican terrorists then shares a platform with Billy Wright. This hypocrisy didn't go unnoticed down here.

laoch na mona

gallag wrote: »

Few tents popping up about belfast now, bottom of newtownards road, apparently just a scam to get up the housing list. Also hardly a shop or set of traffic lights without roma gypsies begging out side or selling roses/pick pocketing at night. But I suppose I should just accept my country being turned into a slum and look forward to a new surge in the numbers lest I be branded a racist.

no you should challenge a political system which is so exploitative that people have to squat in camps to get a house and where workers are viewed as a disposable commodity to serve the means of profit. Immigrants are not the problem those who happily exploit them are

gallag

laoch na mona wrote: »

no you should challenge a political system which is so exploitative that people have to squat in camps to get a house and where workers are viewed as a disposable commodity to serve the means of profit. Immigrants are not the problem those who happily exploit them are

Where will the houses come from? Will I soon be paying more taxes to house any European that fancies a free house? How about we challenge a political system that is still allowing uncontrolled emigration when there is already massive unemployment, hospital waiting lists and housing shortages, the only people benefiting from that is mega corps being able to keep wages down.

Pherekydes

gallag wrote: »

How about we challenge a political system that is still allowing uncontrolled emigration...

What are you proposing? Some sort of police state to prevent people going abroad?

laoch na mona

gallag wrote: »

the only people benefiting from that is mega corps being able to keep wages down.

then reach out to the migrant workers get them to unionise. workers blaming hardships on immigrants suits the big companies as it prevents solidarity. they didn't take your job the company simply found a cheaper means of production its a system where profit is all that matters means companies inevitably find cheaper labour

Nodin

gallag wrote: »

Where will the houses come from? Will I soon be paying more taxes to house any European that fancies a free house? How about we challenge a political system that is still allowing uncontrolled emigration when there is already massive unemployment, hospital waiting lists and housing shortages, the only people benefiting from that is mega corps being able to keep wages down.

Yes, you're doomed to be swept away by the vast hordes advancing as we speak. Any male taller than a cart axle will be killed.

crockholm

Would it be possible to talk about peoples gripes and fears about immigration without being facetious?

Nodin

crockholm wrote: »

Would it be possible to talk about peoples gripes and fears about immigration without being facetious?

...when they're not so unrealistic and hysterical as to be facetious, yes, it is.

gallag

Nodin wrote: »

Yes, you're doomed to be swept away by the vast hordes advancing as we speak. Any male taller than a cart axle will be killed.

I wish I could sarcastically wipe away the truth but alas even the government are worried now. Can you really not see the problem? The UK and ireland are already stretched, running a deficit to be paid by children yet to be born, unemployment high and the only jobs being made are for 16hrs on min wage to suite cheep European labour house sharing. The health service cant cope, the prison service has been stretched our countries are going down fast and letting another million unskilled Romanians and bulgarians in will factually make things worse. Its maths not racism.

Nodin

gallag wrote: »

I wish I could sarcastically wipe away the truth but alas even the government are worried now. Can you really not see the problem? The UK and ireland are already stretched, running a deficit to be paid by children yet to be born, unemployment high and the only jobs being made are for 16hrs on min wage to suite cheep European labour house sharing. The health service cant cope, the prison service has been stretched our countries are going down fast and letting another million unskilled Romanians and bulgarians in will factually make things worse. Its maths not racism.

For starters, I never accused you of racism in regard to the last post. The rest of your post strikes me as full of wild speculation, hysteria and nonsense, tbh.

laoch na mona

gallag wrote: »

the only jobs being made are for 16hrs on min wage to suite cheep European labour house sharing..

That is the nature of the beast its all about profit stopping immigration won't change that surely you can see that if we helped workers organise they couldn't be exploited by companies looking for cheap labour.

gallag

Nodin wrote: »

For starters, I never accused you of racism in regard to the last post. The rest of your post strikes me as full of wild speculation, hysteria and nonsense, tbh.

What is speculation? The housing shortage?
What is hysteria? The unemployment? The stretched healt service? The prolific growth of part time low paid jobs? The debt unborn children have? Whats the nonsense? The fact that we are expecting a lot of migrants from Romania and Bulgaria to come here and stretch us more, why do you think our governments are now panicking about it?

crockholm

Saying it will be a trickle jst reminds me of the Govt. 10 years ago vis-a vis central/eastern/baltic europeans. If we do get the maths wrong about the numbers again, what then? Be philosophical about it?

crockholm

laoch na mona wrote: »

That is the nature of the beast its all about profit stopping immigration won't change that surely you can see that if we helped workers organise they couldn't be exploited by companies looking for cheap labour.

Part of me agrees with your post,I don't want to see another "race to the bottom", but then, I really have had woeful experiences with 2 different unions,and I would prefer to stay outside them, very conflicted:(

gallag

laoch na mona wrote: »

That is the nature of the beast its all about profit stopping immigration won't change that surely you can see that if we helped workers organise they couldn't be exploited by companies looking for cheap labour.

Its supply and demand, whats the point in workers organising if there are more people than jobs? How would letting another million unskilled workers in help in any way?

A company used to post a job and if the position did not get filled the compensation for doing that job would rise until the post was filled, thats how rates of pay grow, now with a unlimited supply of cheep labour rates will/have stagnated and the rich will get richer.

Explane to me how more immigrants is the answer? Surely now is the time to control unskilled immigration. I am not saying kick people out but lets close the doors now to people who have little chance of finding employment and will just be stretching the housing/benefits system further.

Nodin

gallag wrote: »

What is speculation? The housing shortage?
What is hysteria? The unemployment? The stretched healt service? The prolific growth of part time low paid jobs? The debt unborn children have? Whats the nonsense? The fact that we are expecting a lot of migrants from Romania and Bulgaria to come here and stretch us more, why do you think our governments are now panicking about it?

Theres no housing shortage down here. I have to say the "stretched health service" is a new one.

You haven't proven that there is a "prolific growth of part time low paid jobs" let alone that its connected to free movement within the EU. And as you can't arrive and claim here, its unlikely that we'll attract vast numbers of Romanians and Bulgarians.

I'd imagine the "panic" in the Tory party is due more to pandering to UKIP defecting voters than anything else.

crockholm

Nodin wrote: »

Theres no housing shortage down here. I have to say the "stretched health service" is a new one.

You haven't proven that there is a "prolific growth of part time low paid jobs" let alone that its connected to free movement within the EU. And as you can't arrive and claim here, its unlikely that we'll attract vast numbers of Romanians and Bulgarians.

I'd imagine the "panic" in the Tory party is due more to pandering to UKIP defecting voters than anything else.

Germany also is looking to veto R&B into the Schengen area by 2014.

laoch na mona

gallag wrote: »

Its supply and demand, whats the point in workers organising if there are more people than jobs? How would letting another million unskilled workers in help in any way?

A company used to post a job and if the position did not get filled the compensation for doing that job would rise until the post was filled, thats how rates of pay grow, now with a unlimited supply of cheep labour rates will/have stagnated and the rich will get richer.

Explane to me how more immigrants is the answer? Surely now is the time to control unskilled immigration. I am not saying kick people out but lets close the doors now to people who have little chance of finding employment and will just be stretching the housing/benefits system further.

the rich get richer due to exploitng workers if workers don't allow themselves to be exploited immigration is no longer a problem as its not a influx of cheap labour. Now if we us international bodies to pressure companies into introducing world wide standards then there is no need to immigrate to find work if there is suitable work in their countries.

in short exploitation and low wages created immigration and they are exploited again when they reach a new country

again they are not the problem they are a symptom

Nodin

crockholm wrote: »

Germany also is looking to veto R&B into the Schengen area by 2014.

....we aren't in the Schengen agreement either, as far as I know and we have free movement.....

crockholm

laoch na mona wrote: »

the rich get richer due to exploitng workers if workers don't allow themselves to be exploited immigration is no longer a problem as its not a influx of cheap labour. Now if we us international bodies to pressure companies into introducing world wide standards then there is no need to immigrate to find work if there is suitable work in their countries.

in short exploitation and low wages created immigration and they are exploited again when they reach a new country

again they are not the problem they are a symptom

OKBut which is a more plausible outcome, the Govt doing that,and they come here to the phantom jobs. OR, the Govt don't do that,and they come here for the phantom jobs?

crockholm

Nodin wrote: »

....we aren't in the Schengen agreement either, as far as I know and we have free movement.....

By law, we have to show our passports at airports,borders etc, Schengen countries don't. Next time you're on the continent,have a look,you should see 2 seperate areas, schengen and non-schengen

gallag

laoch na mona wrote: »

the rich get richer due to exploitng workers if workers don't allow themselves to be exploited immigration is no longer a problem as its not a influx of cheap labour. Now if we us international bodies to pressure companies into introducing world wide standards then there is no need to immigrate to find work if there is suitable work in their countries.

in short exploitation and low wages created immigration and they are exploited again when they reach a new country

again they are not the problem they are a symptom

I don't disagree, but letting more in at this point is not going to help, it will only make an already overstretched system worse. I also think the issues of company's posting billions profits every quarter and paying the board more than the rest of the staff combined needs addressing.

woodoo

This is the utopia we are all after.. open the gates and let them in.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2290480/Romanian-migrants-blamed-rise-crime-German-town-Duisburg.html

Death and Taxes

woodoo wrote: »

This is the utopia we are all after.. open the gates and let them in.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2290480/Romanian-migrants-blamed-rise-crime-German-town-Duisburg.html

The "Habitual Residency" condition attached to SW payments make such an occurance here extremly unlikely.

AlekSmart

WileyCoyote wrote: »

The "Habitual Residency" condition attached to SW payments make such an occurance here extremly unlikely.

Phew...thank heavens for that so......

http://www.flac.ie/download/pdf/habitual_residence_condition_guide_final.pdf

Mind you,as the Mail article points out,loopholes abound,particularly in the area of self-employment,but,of course the significant players in this "Industry" have already made their plans based upon this.

Never happen here I suppose...?

Different arrangements apply to nationals from
Romania and Bulgaria, as the State is currently applying
transitional measures to these two new EU Member
States.

These measures limit access to the workplace
and mean that Bulgarians and Romanians can only take
up insurable employment if they hold a valid work
permit or if, prior to 1 January 2007 when both
countries acceded to the EU, they were working in the
State on a valid work permit which was valid for at least
12 months or working on an immigration Stamp 4 for at
least 12 months.

Romanian and Bulgarian nationals may also become self-employed since 1 January 2007.

In both these circumstances, the claimant is working
legally in the State and therefore does not have to
satisfy the Habitual Residence Condition for family
benefits.

Romanian or Bulgarian nationals will have to
satisfy the HRC if they do not fall into one of the
categories mentioned above.

I predict a busy year ahead as the "Transitional Measures" come to an end....;)

Grayson

woodoo wrote: »

This is the utopia we are all after.. open the gates and let them in.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2290480/Romanian-migrants-blamed-rise-crime-German-town-Duisburg.html

What's that got to do with multiculturalism?

Love that story by the way. It sounds just like anti jewish stories from the 30's.

Two doors away, single mother-of-four Maria Marin, 35, also has hopes of moving to Britain. She moved to Duisburg with her brother and sister and their families and pays £400 a month rent for her three-bedroom flat. As she talks, she shows off a set of gleaming gold teeth

crockholm

Grayson wrote: »

What's that got to do with multiculturalism?

Love that story by the way. It sounds just like anti jewish stories from the 30's.

It's following on from the discussion thathad been going on in the previous pages,have a look, if you're interested.


So, if i am skeptical of allowing more access to Ireland for Romanian and Bulgarian citizens,in this economic era, you are inferring that holding a similar position is akin to being supportive of NSDAP.

good attempt to stifle an opponent.

MAR86

gallag wrote: »

What is speculation? The housing shortage?
What is hysteria? The unemployment? The stretched healt service? The prolific growth of part time low paid jobs? The debt unborn children have? Whats the nonsense? The fact that we are expecting a lot of migrants from Romania and Bulgaria to come here and stretch us more, why do you think our governments are now panicking about it?

Why are you expecting the Romanians and Bulgarians only now? Did you know that the work restrictions were lifter in July 2012? Did you notice any massive influx in the last 8 months?

woodoo

Grayson wrote: »

What's that got to do with multiculturalism?

Love that story by the way. It sounds just like anti jewish stories from the 30's.

People like you are a worry grayson.. let everyone and worry about the consequences later. You leftie liberals will reap what you sow some day when all this immigration goes wrong.

We don't need these people, why would we want them. Do we owe them a home? There isn't even enough work for our own people.

twinQuins

Sky is still falling, eh? Let me know when it finally does come crashing down.

I won't hold my breath.

Herb Powell

If you can't see something wrong with that article, then.................I don't even know

Paramite Pie

Blackbush1905 wrote: »

Just out of interest why is it when southerners think of northern ireland the people they first think of is firebrand free presbo **** like mccrae? and other such like pricks, he isn't a name in anyones head up here but brought up on a mainly southern forum, my theory is that this is the view alot of people have of "the north", makes it easy to point and say they're the bigots, load of bollocks!! its says more about alot of clueless know it alls down south who present themselves as experts on NI and its troubles by throwing about names of nomark "the earths flat" dicks than it does about your average northern irish person.

People in the North have just as many misconceptions about 'The South'.

When I was in Belfast, I met some lad who was convinced that we couldn't legally buy condoms down South.... I struggled to convince him otherwise. Obviously not representative of the entire populace but it still stuck out.

I'm pretty sure alot of people still think we don't eat meat on Fridays or any of that jazz. We have a few 'ol ones who are devout but that's about it.

We're not oppressed by priests & nuns like many people claim and that's coming from an atheist.

You also blatantly generalized all southerners. Yes there are ignorant people down here but people on any forum will always have stronger opinions than the average joe.

Blackbush1905 wrote: »

truth is you were schooled by catholic fundamentalist nuns and priests, as someone on a recent forum said "the nuns told us it was green white and gold, probably because they didn't like the thought of orange/protestant", sound familiar?

Very few Catholic schools these days have priests or nuns as teachers. Even the principal in my Catholic school wasn't a priest even though there were still 3 priests teaching there (outta 26 teachers)

While the 'green white and gold' was inherently disgraceful I was taught the truth in secondary school in history class but the topic had never come up in my school prior to that. But yes some people were taught that crap.

I'm not sure how much of that still goes on... but I also learned in school that so many prominent leading members of Irish independence were Protestant. Even our first President Douglas Hyde was Protestant. Not sure how the Nationalists tell that:)

old hippy

woodoo wrote: »

People like you are a worry grayson.. let everyone and worry about the consequences later. You leftie liberals will reap what you sow some day when all this immigration goes wrong.

We don't need these people, why would we want them. Do we owe them a home? There isn't even enough work for our own people.

What, exactly, are you wishing upon us, woodoo? Will you be there, laughing and pointing when such nameless horrors are visited on us?

The world gets smaller every day. Sadly, some peoples outlook and views seem to equally dimnish in accordance.

AlekSmart

old hippy wrote: »

The world gets smaller every day. Sadly, some peoples outlook and views seem to equally dimnish in accordance.

Funnily enough,I believe the opposite to be the case.

Certainly in the West at least,we are no longer prepared to simply accept that attaching a "Multicultural" tag to something automatically grants it immunity from scrutiny.

This wider field of view is very recent and quite possibly represents the only way to avoid religious zealots imposing their insanity upon us unbelievers.