Is multiculturalism wanted??

woodoo

Sonics2k wrote: »

Right now we have a lot of Irish moving to Australia, Canada and the USA due to mostly economic issues, just like in the 80s. Hell, the reason I was born in London is because my mother had to move their during that depression.

And they will be happy to integrate well. They will not segregate themselves like for example muslims.

woodoo

southsiderosie wrote: »

Your OP says it is about multiculturalism, which is a very specific policy approach to dealing with a multicultural population. .

I should have named the thread 'white flight in london'. I regret that now.

dr.bollocko

SirTallaghtban wrote: »

What was Dublins foreign born population 15 years ago? A per cent or two.
What was Dublins foreign born population according to the last census? 25-30%

Irelands foreign born pop. was 17 per cent iirc.

One of the highest in the world. The equivalent of the US letting in circa 60 million immigrants in just over a decade.

So.. We're all doomed then?

Sonics2k

woodoo wrote: »

And they will be happy to integrate well. They will not segregate themselves like for example muslims.

Bollocks.

The majority of Muslims are happy to integrate with other societies, just like anyone else is.

Any Muslim I have ever known has been going along with life exactly as normal, they just follow a different religious code.

Now, if you're claiming some nonsense like they all want their own laws enforced in other countries, then you're wrong.

With that said, I do not agree with an average countries laws being altered to suit the religious/cultural laws of another society, especially if it will lower the civil rights of a group of people.

SirTallaghtban

For anyone interested in watching part of the Primetime show on white flight in Dublin, paste another case of 'white flight' into Youtube.

johnty56

I think alot of the people posting on this thread haven't got a notion what they are talking about.
All they do is associate the whole issue with skin colour.
At first glance many of the areas that have seen a decline in what is termed white British appear to be areas with very large Asian populations. By that I mean Indian/ Pakistani/ Bangladeshi etc.. In areas like this it is actually possible to spend a day on a main street and hear very little English being spoken.

I would love to know the figures for the amount of black British people who have also left these areas... its not an issue of skin colour.. its an issue of finding yourself in an area that has become so predominantly different from the culture you are from that it feels alien and you are not comfortable. As other posters have noted, the practicalities of finding shops etc that cater to your cultural norms also becomes an issue. When there is immigration on the sheer scale that the UK has had there are bound to be practical issues.

Immigrants arrive in such numbers that they have no chance to adapt to British culture, and in fact don't need to. That is not multi anything, nor is it necessarily beneficial. What it is is displacement.

I am not saying that is good or bad.

Lou.m

SirTallaghtban wrote: »

On an individual level, no.

But as a collective, I think that we, in Europe, most certainly shall.

Large urban areas in Europe are becoming no go areas (tower hamlets, malmo, parts of brussels, paris etc. etc.) for the native populace.

And its only going to go one way.

I disagree with you.

The French and the Germans do not mind black people or Asians..they simply want people who immigrate to be secular and adopt a sense of national identity.

It is not multiculturalism..or many races that is the issue...it is that they want to forge an identity that unites them.

They don't want Turkish living in German...they want Turkish Germans who are proud to be German and feel a part of Germany.


And that is what NON racist Germans want too.

Johro

woodoo wrote: »

Maybe they are racist maybe they aren't but if more people were giving the thumbs up to their posts then that is a worry? Anyone that read that article could press the agree or disagree button. Why were most people agreeing with those top rated comments. I don't think these feelings can be swept under the carpet.

No but they can be seen for what they are, sometimes racist, mostly uninformed, and whipped up by a media that just loves conflict, in times of financial hardship.
Also factor in that the British government are quite happy to have this kind of debate going on because it deflects the blame from where it should really be aimed at and gets them votes when they promise to be 'tough on immigration'. It's like this all over Europe and it stinks.

Push Pop

ProudDUB wrote: »

I used to live in a what would be considered a very multicultural part of a major US city. I loved it...the cheap rents, the proximity to down town, the fabulous food, the funky ethnic boutiques, the wonderful people that were so fresh faced and excited about being in America, The Land Of Opportunity, the atmosphere and over all buzz made it a great place to live.

However, there was a flip side to that too. Over the years that I lived there, there was a massive influx of poorly educated, non English speaking immigrants into the area (from South America mainly) that flooded the local school system. It just couldn't cope with the numbers involved or build schools fast enough. When a couple of the factories that drew the migrant workers there in the first place closed, things got a lot worse. This manifested itself in anti social problems and a tolerance of a gang culture that made me begin to think about moving out.

I wound up staying. It was ok for me, I didn't have kids. I didn't have to worry about my child getting into trouble on the way to and from school, or getting involved with gangs. I also didn't have to worry about the quality of their education, due to their being 45 odd kids in classes, or the lessons having to be taught at a snails pace due to the high numbers of kids in the classes who spoke limited English.

I know people, good people (both white, Asian and African American) who moved away from the area because they wanted their kids to have access to lets face it, better schools and a less threatening social environment. Does that make them racist? I don't think that it does. It is a lot more complicated than that.

It's also not a race thing to me. It is an economic thing. If you have money, regardless of your race, you want to live in a "nice" area with "good" schools. How many rappers who grew up in the 'hood still live there? How many coloured sports stars, actors, musicians etc etc who grew up on a socially deprived council estate still live in one? Very few imo. They all live in McMansions in GenteelsVille. Are they all being racist too by moving away?

I'm in a very similar situation as you are and I'm assuming you are in LA. You are correct that it's not racial but rather a developed world vs developing world culture clash. I've seen nice areas block by block having US citizens having to move because their house prices are plummeting, crime escalating and gang activity. Its called white flight but that has a racial overtone that makes the PC Brigade pee a little in their pants.
Seeing California going down the drain, dragged down to 3rd world standards in many respects is very sad.

Ireland has nothing to worry about in a multicultural sense because there is a very strong dominant culture and a very narrowly defined sense of Irishness which is remarkably hard to assimilate into if you are not Irish. Must be hell if you are not Irish though and trying to assimilate.

Multiculturalism is not wanted because it generally does not benefit the host state as it can create ghettos and a hell of alot more government dependents. It boils down to the ever increasingly dominant left becoming too altruistic while overlooking the harsh reality of economics.

southsiderosie

woodoo wrote: »

And they will be happy to integrate well. They will not segregate themselves like for example muslims.

Or the Irish?

I suggest you do some reading on how Irish Catholics who moved to the US were viewed by their 'fellow Americans' in the late 19th and early 20th century. Catholics in general were seen by the Protestant majority as being impossible to integrate - it was assumed that their loyalty would always be to the Pope, rather than the Constitution. These views held until well into the 1960s, despite the fact that mass European migration to the US essentially ended with the advent of WWI. And the arguments put forth against Catholics then are the exact same as those used against Muslims today.

Collective amnesia is at the root of a lot of problems in this world.

Johro

What most of you who have a problem with multiculturalism actually have a problem with is a lack of integration, which is a problem. If that's not it, you're a xenophobe, unfortunately.

philologos

SirTallaghtban wrote: »

What was Dublins foreign born population 15 years ago? A per cent or two.
What was Dublins foreign born population according to the last census? 25-30%

Irelands foreign born pop. was 17 per cent iirc.

One of the highest in the world. The equivalent of the US letting in circa 60 million immigrants in just over a decade.

The US is a country prerequisited on immigration. It is a nation where migrants from all over the world came.

Why does it matter that there are more people from outside the State in Ireland? The reason what you are saying is objectionable is that you're implying almost that it is negative to have other ethnic groups in the country.

woodoo

Sonics2k wrote: »

Bollocks.

The majority of Muslims are happy to integrate with other societies, just like anyone else is.

.

Do they, do they marry as many non muslims as muslims, do they live among as many non muslims as muslims,

SirTallaghtban

Lou.m wrote: »

I disagree with you.

The French and the Germans do not mind black people or Asians..they simply want people who immigrate to be secular and adopt a sense of national identity.

It is not multiculturalism..or many races that is the issue...it is that they want to forge an identity that unites them.

Explain then why Marie La Pen polled so well, why the French national team is divided amongst ethnic lines, why the ethnic French have stopped supporting the multiracial nation team and please explain the growth of the newly formed group called generation identitaire.

If thats your best example of a multicultural success story, then count me out.

Looks like a nation about to enter ethnic conflict. Balkanisation.

woodoo

johnty56 wrote: »

Immigrants arrive in such numbers that they have no chance to adapt to British culture, and in fact don't need to. That is not multi anything, nor is it necessarily beneficial. What it is is displacement.
.

That is exactly the problem

philologos

woodoo wrote: »

And they will be happy to integrate well. They will not segregate themselves like for example muslims.

You really haven't a clue what you're talking about do you?

SirTallaghtban

philologos wrote: »

The US is a country prerequisited on immigration. It is a nation where migrants from all over the world came.

Why does it matter that there are more people from outside the State in Ireland? The reason what you are saying is objectionable is that you're implying almost that it is negative to have other ethnic groups in the country.

Do you believe in immigration controls? Do you believe that ethnic groups deserve a piece of this earth to call their own?

I do.

Sonics2k

woodoo wrote: »

Do they, do they marry as many non muslims as muslims, do they live among as many non muslims as muslims,

Shock horror, people marrying someone they'd have something in common with! Those absolute heathens.

I suppose I'm as bad for going out with a white girl who's agnostic.

woodoo

philologos wrote: »

You really haven't a clue what you're talking about do you?

Explain what you think i don't get?

Johro

dr.bollocko wrote: »

So.. We're all doomed then?

Sharia law is imminent, didn't ya know.

woodoo

Sonics2k wrote: »

Shock horror, people marrying someone they'd have something in common with! Those absolute heathens.

I suppose I'm as bad for going out with a white girl who's agnostic.

Deal with the issue alot of white londoners seem to be having with their city today. There is clearly a problem, you may want to gloss over it with smartarsery but there is a problem.

Nodin

SirTallaghtban wrote: »

Explain then why Marie La Pen polled so well, why the French national team is divided amongst ethnic lines, why the ethnic French have stopped supporting the multiracial nation team and please explain the growth of the newly formed group called generation identitaire.

If thats your best example of a multicultural success story, then count me out.

Looks like a nation about to enter ethnic conflict. Balkanisation.

The French don't - nor ever have - supported, endorsed or practiced multiculturalism. It is and always has been an integrationist model.

(Could somebody design a macro bot thing to post that correction for me....I'm getting RSI at this stage)

Sonics2k

woodoo wrote: »

Deal with the issue alot of white londoners seem to be having with their city today. There is clearly a problem, you may want to gloss over it with smartarsery but there is a problem.

If you want I can ask my white Londoner girlfriend? Or my white Londoner friends? I already said I was born there, go there and have family there.

None of them have a problem with it.

Johro

Sonics2k wrote: »

Shock horror, people marrying someone they'd have something in common with! Those absolute heathens.

I suppose I'm as bad for going out with a white girl who's agnostic.

You'll go to hell. Or not.

woodoo

Sonics2k wrote: »

If you want I can ask my white Londoner girlfriend? Or my white Londoner friends? I already said I was born there, go there and have family there.

None of them have a problem with it.

all is rosy then

SirTallaghtban

Nodin wrote: »

The French don't - nor ever have - supported, endorsed or practiced multiculturalism. It is and always has been an integrationist model.

(Could somebody design a macro bot thing to post that correction for me....I'm getting RSI at this stage)

I never claimed that they did. France and Germany should have paid repatriation money to its post ww2 guest workers. They assumed that they would leave off their own back.

All these problems could have been easily avoided.

Lou.m

I have to say....this thread confuses me....so is Paul Mcgragh Irish??

Phil Lynnott???

Etc.....are these people not going to be Irish???

I mean if an influx of Americans came would be having this conversation.

If it is a matter of 'culture' well that will be Irish in a Generation....and we are pretty globalized anyway.

We will not have ghettos of a certain race in the same way you do in other countries ...we are a very small close knit country.

So we can't really. America and Britain are much bigger sprawling countries.


And Ireland does not have that many....and with our history we can't complain. We are still doing it today. People migration is natural. It has been around for centuries you will never halt it. It is actually healthy genetically and I believe culturally.

There is not even that much in Ireland. To be concerned about the future as in 'Black people MIGHT come and live here' is a bizarre phobia.


Besides currently we have some of the tightest immigration laws in the EU for non EU citizens as i understand it.

It is much easier for people to immigrate to Britain than here or Belgium or Luxembourg.

We don't really need to worry about too many people wanting to come here. It is nicely balanced by people wanting to leave. And that is nothing to do with the people coming in.

But lets face it in recent years....we need people willing to take jobs that Irish people would rather immigrate than do on a long term basis. Irish people do not want to wait on table for ten years...they would rather leave. And immigrate elsewhere...they do not want the obs and careers on offer and do not like longterm prospects and don't want to wait for them. Can you imagine Ireland during the downturn if there was no immigration or had been none over the last few years. It would be even MORE of a ghost town.

Johro

Yeah my gf has an Irish mother and Yemeni father. Oh the horror.

SirTallaghtban

Sonics2k wrote: »

If you want I can ask my white Londoner girlfriend? Or my white Londoner friends? I already said I was born there, go there and have family there.

None of them have a problem with it.

They may not, but an awful lot of Londoners evidently do. They have voted with their feet.

mikemac1

woodoo wrote: »

I was reading through a piece on white flight from London on the BBC

Primetime did a piece on Dublin 15 a few years back.

Around the time they ran out of school places in Balbriggan.
Lack of planning in Ireland??? :pac:

I'm going to be flamed alive for linking to that youtube channel, I know, I know.
Ignore the channel, I'm just using it to put up RTÉ Primetime

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzNy0F4pwJ8

SirTallaghtban

Lou.m wrote: »

I have to say....this thread confuses me....so is Paul Mcgragh Irish??

Phil Lynnott???

Both born in the UK. That makes them native britons to some on this thread.7

philologos

woodoo wrote: »

Explain what you think i don't get?

The reality. Tarring all Muslims with the same brush is daft.

I have a number of very good friends who are Muslims and a number of whom take their Islam very seriously, a number of them don't at all and are probably about as secular as your average Londoner.

There are a minority who do intentionally isolate themselves from others, particularly women from non-Muslim men. However there are a number of differing groups who do this not exclusively those Muslims.

Johro

woodoo wrote: »

Deal with the issue alot of white londoners seem to be having with their city today. There is clearly a problem, you may want to gloss over it with smartarsery but there is a problem.

No there isn't. There is a small minded loud mouthed minority. Sure you'll find plenty of anti-multicultural stuff in internet debate but those are people who feel the need to post about it. Many don't. In any debate like that you'll get the polar opposite and most vehement opinions that don't necessarily describe the public mood.

SirTallaghtban

Less of this Ireland has a tiny immigrant population nonsense. It doesnt. It has one of the highest in the world. Nearly six times the global average.

Only 3 per cent of the global population are immigrants. Irelands foreign born population is 17 per cent of our population!

Lou.m

SirTallaghtban wrote: »

Explain then why Marie La Pen polled so well, why the French national team is divided amongst ethnic lines, why the ethnic French have stopped supporting the multiracial nation team and please explain the growth of the newly formed group called generation identitaire.

If thats your best example of a multicultural success story, then count me out.

Looks like a nation about to enter ethnic conflict. Balkanisation.

:-) Explain why she lost?????

She polled well did she....erm no ....

Football has always had it's scum....there is no excuse for that...it is a racist game always has been long before immigration.

You are revealing your true colors.

You are echoing the extremes of neo nazis. To avoid being called one.

Next you will lsay..oh I do not agree with these people...but I can see why they feel this way.

When you really mean you like La Pen and want football teams to be 'ethnically clean'

Looks like a nation about to enter ethnic conflict. Balkanisation.

That is the stupidest thing I have heard on this thread.


If anything France has become more united and more global resenting the idea of nationality especially under Hollande. Look at what happened to Depardieu cheered when he said he was immigrating to Belgium and handing in his pass port to become a Belgian citizen. The Govt tried to say he was anti-patriotic..anti-french..they were lambasted ..

The people you speak of are the Scum normal French people hate.

Sonics2k

Sonics2k wrote: »

Bollocks.

The majority of Muslims are happy to integrate with other societies, just like anyone else is.

Any Muslim I have ever known has been going along with life exactly as normal, they just follow a different religious code.

Now, if you're claiming some nonsense like they all want their own laws enforced in other countries, then you're wrong.

With that said, I do not agree with an average countries laws being altered to suit the religious/cultural laws of another society, especially if it will lower the civil rights of a group of people.

Bollix. There are huge numbers of areas in different cities where Muslims don't interact with any other religions. I've been in areas of London where I was stared at and had comments made to me because I wasn't in Muslim dress. I personally know quite a few people who want alcohol banned and who tell random women to cover up. I lived in an area which was very mixed and I couldn't even buy any pork products because all the shops were run by Muslims. I'm not a Muslim-hating Daily Mail reader. Some of my best friends are Muslims, but let's not pretend that there isn't a very real issue in some of the inner cities.

SirTallaghtban

Johro wrote: »

No there isn't. There is a small minded loud mouthed minority. Sure you'll find plenty of anti-multicultural stuff in internet debate but those are people who feel the need to post about it. Many don't, especially those who go 'meh...'. In any debate like that you'll get the polar opposite and most vehement opinions that don't necessarily describe the public mood.

65% of brits polled in a recent ipsos survey agreed with the statement "there are too many immigrants in our country".

The same for each and every EU member state.

But yeah, convince yourself that its only people on the internet whom are anti mass immigration from non European countries. Alls rosy, honest!

southsiderosie

SirTallaghtban wrote: »

What was Dublins foreign born population 15 years ago? A per cent or two.
What was Dublins foreign born population according to the last census? 25-30%

Irelands foreign born pop. was 17 per cent iirc.

One of the highest in the world. The equivalent of the US letting in circa 60 million immigrants in just over a decade.

Where are you getting your figures from? According to the CSO:

For the entire country in 2011:
non-Irish nationals: 544,357
Total population: 4,525,281
Non-Irish nationals as % of the total population: 12%
The foreign-born population in 2002 was 5.8%

And for Dublin in 2011:
non-Irish nationals: 195,496
Total population: 1,248,107
Non-Irish nationals as % of the total population: 15.6%

Lou.m

SirTallaghtban wrote: »

Less of this Ireland has a tiny immigrant population nonsense. It doesnt. It has one of the highest in the world. Nearly six times the global average.

Only 3 per cent of the global population are immigrants. Irelands foreign born population is 17 per cent of our population!

Good....the stronger the population the less acceptable racism becomes.

So we all become brown...YAY

Lou.m

southsiderosie wrote: »

Where are you getting your figures from? According to the CSO:

For the entire country in 2011:
non-Irish nationals: 544,357
Total population: 4,525,281
Non-Irish nationals as % of the total population: 12%
The foreign-born population in 2002 was 5.8%

And for Dublin in 2011:
non-Irish nationals: 195,496
Total population: 1,248,107
Non-Irish nationals as % of the total population: 15.6%

I say we all inter marry and get rid of this issue once and for all....a race of gorgeous people ...then we immigrate the **** out of this wet little rock.

southsiderosie

SirTallaghtban wrote: »

Less of this Ireland has a tiny immigrant population nonsense. It doesnt. It has one of the highest in the world. Nearly six times the global average.

Only 3 per cent of the global population are immigrants. Irelands foreign born population is 17 per cent of our population!

Not only are your figures wrong, this is a stupid comparison. You can't compare Ireland to the rest of the world - you need to compare it to other highly developed Western countries, namely Western Europe, the US, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand. From that vantage point, Ireland isn't unusual - it has just finally caught up to the rest of the Western OECD countries. Same with Spain - like Ireland, it was an economic backwater until relatively recently, and it underwent a larger and more rapid influx of immigrants over the last 15-20 years than Ireland, even controlling for the population.

SirTallaghtban

Lou.m wrote: »

Good....the stronger the population the less acceptable racism becomes.

So we all become brown...YAY

Are you for real? Kill off whitey to end racism?

I am actually terrified that people like you are allowed to roam free.

SirTallaghtban

southsiderosie wrote: »

Not only are your figures wrong, this is a stupid comparison. You can't compare Ireland to the rest of the world - you need to compare it to other highly developed Western countries, namely Western Europe, the US, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand. From that vantage point, Ireland isn't unusual - it has just finally caught up to the rest of the Western OECD countries. Same with Spain - like Ireland, it was an economic backwater until relatively recently, and it underwent a larger and more rapid influx of immigrants over the last 15-20 years than Ireland, even controlling for the population.

You have been comparing ireland and her people with the rest of the world in the majority of your posts on this thread. Bit rich, that.

My figures are from the last census.

woodoo

Lou.m wrote: »

I say we all inter marry and get rid of this issue once and for all....a race of gorgeous people ...then we immigrate the **** out of this wet little rock.

I would love to see what people would look like if all the major races in the world were integrated. A computer generated estimate would be nice to see.

SirTallaghtban

Lou.m wrote: »

I say we all inter marry and get rid of this issue once and for all....a race of gorgeous people ...then we immigrate the **** out of this wet little rock.

Off you pop. May I suggest africa, east asia or the middle east?

Remember to tell them that they are too black or brown.

Or is it only native Europeans you want to mix out of existence?

Johro

SirTallaghtban wrote: »

65% of brits polled in a recent ipsos survey agreed with the statement "there are too many immigrants in our country".

The same for each and every EU member state.

But yeah, convince yourself that its only people on the internet whom are anti mass immigration from non European countries. Alls rosy, honest!

If you're anti-immigration, why are you only anti non EU immigration??
This issue of multiculturalism is only becoming more confused on here really.
Thinly veiled xenophobe thread.

southsiderosie

Hailee Wailing Microcomputer wrote: »

Bollix. There are huge numbers of areas in different cities where Muslims don't interact with any other religions. I've been in areas of London where I was stared at and had comments made to me because I wasn't in Muslim dress. I personally know quite a few people who want alcohol banned and who tell random women to cover up. I lived in an area which was very mixed and I couldn't even buy any pork products because all the shops were run by Muslims. I'm not a Muslim-hating Daily Mail reader. Some of my best friends are Muslims, but let's not pretend that there isn't a very real issue in some of the inner cities.

This is where I think multiculturalism as a policy has failed: people may have the right to do their own thing, but they don't have the right to impose that on others.

That said, I think this is a problem with religious conservatives everywhere: there has been a great deal of tension between the ultra-Orthodox and reform/secular Jews in Israel, and there have also been big fights between the ultra-Orthodox and young, white hipsters in Brooklyn. Most of these involve issues of women not 'covering up' (on the bus in Israel, and on the bike path in Brooklyn).

If people want to have halal butchers or whatever then fine, but that is a private matter. However, people should not be able to impose their private values on the public, and this is a key challenge for liberal societies.

periodictable

Azure_sky wrote: »

Not wanting multi-cultural is not racism, it's xeno-phobia.

Rubbish. You have no idea what xenophobia means-considering you have hyphenated the word, that might be a good starting point from which to figure out what the word means.
I have no fear of foreigners. As for multiculturalism, I have no problem with different cultures in this country, but I won't countenance neighborhoods with street names in arabic or hindi, or being made to feel unwelcome in any part of this island because I'm the wrong color.
You want to come here, get with the program and become as Irish as the Irish themselves.

AeoNGriM

wprathead wrote: »

these threads always end well

Maybe if you made a positive contribution to the discussion instead of posting negative comments it wouldn't go downhill in a hurry?

Just a thought......

southsiderosie

SirTallaghtban wrote: »

You have been comparing ireland and her people with the rest of the world in the majority of your posts on this thread. Bit rich, that.

My figures are from the last census.

No, I've compared Ireland with Europe and the US. But thanks for mis-representing my posts.

Oh, and I have linked to the CSO 2011 census figures. If you have some alternative data, then please post it. Otherwise, stop making things up.