Can you appeal a DART fine if you fall asleep?

sorkyporky

i got on a dart at sydney parade to sandymount but fell asleep, when i woke up i just decided to wait till i got to sutton and get off, i didn't see much harm. But anyways the guy came around and gave me a 100 euro fine. Also when he gave me the slip, he didn't write my name,address,date,location,amount paid,unpaid fare or received by. All he did was tick the box with 100euro next to it, nothing else. Can i appeal on this?

Valetta

You can appeal any fine.

Probably won't win though.

goingnowhere

sorkyporky wrote: »

i just decided to wait till i got to sutton

You can appeal but you have broken the law and as you made a decision to over travel on whatever ticket you had, its a clear case of avoiding payment of the fare.

Pay fine and move on.

pointsman

Used to work for the rpu myself...So I'll sum this up quickly....

You got on a Sydney going to Sandy...And fell asleep? That's virtually impossible given the fact its only a couple of minutes of a journey....With regards to waiting to Sutton you should have alighted at the next stop after Sandymount or at the nearest oppourtunity you had to leave the train. If you had done this, you would have come under the rule of overcarried and given a bye ball.

Sutton's a different story all together. If it was I doing the check and you told me that, I would assume your chancing your arm. How could you defend the image? To conclude, the fine hasn't been filled in properly. All boxes and fields should have been completed by the checker. You could appeal this on the grounds that it wasn't carried out properly and therefore becomes invalid. I was always taught on the job to fill out all parts. Have IE got your details? If not, I'd forget about it personally....Thank god I'm not in rpu anymore!

corktina

doesn't look good does it (especially when you use a brand new ID on here.

circadian

Surely there should be an option to square up the cost of the extra fare. What happens if you get on a train expecting to get off somewhere but you get a call for a change of plans and need to continue? Do you get off at the destination you intended and buy a new ticket to continue your journey?

I agree with pointsman. If they don't have your details then you could probably ignore it since the inspector clearly didn't give a toss.

Peregrinus

circadian wrote: »

Surely there should be an option to square up the cost of the extra fare. What happens if you get on a train expecting to get off somewhere but you get a call for a change of plans and need to continue? Do you get off at the destination you intended and buy a new ticket to continue your journey?

The rule is, you're supposed to have a ticket for your journey before you start your journey. You can't make your journey, and then buy a ticket at the end. And you can see good common-sense practical reasons why there should be such a rule. If you're on a train when you decide to go to Sutton and you don't have a ticket to Sutton, you need to get off the train and buy a ticket to Sutton.

Sorkyporky might get off because there aren't proper records, due to the failure to complete the form. But on the merits of the case, no. He made a journey for which he didn't have a ticket. It wasn't the journey he originally intended to make, but so what? And whether he extended his originally-intended journey because he fell asleep, or because he got a phone call which caused him to change his mind and make a different journey, it's all the same.

bikeman1

How on earth can you fall asleep between Sydney Parade and Sandymount??

It is a journey of about 90 seconds. This thread is a joke, I wouldnt bother replying to this anymore.

Cookie_Monster

I have yet another BS reason for fare evasion, can you guys on boards justify it for me?

Mr Simpson

OP, tbh it sounds like you chanced your arm and got caught. The journey time is between 90 seconds and 2 minutes. Barely time to sit down, let alone fall asleep. Pay the fine and move on. Appeal it if you want, but I highly doubt you'll get away with it

Losty Dublin

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I have yet another BS reason for fare evasion, can you guys on boards justify it for me?

Go on, we can all do with a good laugh of a Friday

Victor

sorkyporky wrote: »

i just decided to wait till i got to sutton and get off, i didn't see much harm.

This is the killer. You've no excuse for doing this.

P_1

What's the position on falling asleep on a slightly longer journey and missing your stop?

I remember a few occasions where I fell asleep on the train going out to Balbriggan and fell asleep, only to wake up somewhere north of Balbriggan, would I have been liable to be fined in that case?

ProudDUB

P_1 wrote: »

What's the position on falling asleep on a slightly longer journey and missing your stop?

There is no position on falling asleep and missing your stop. If you don't have a valid ticket, you are liable for a fine. End of story. If they let every one off with the falling asleep excuse, we'd all be doing it, and no one would bother paying the full fare to their destination, even if in some cases the excuse is true.

P_1

ProudDUB wrote: »

There is no position on falling asleep and missing your stop. If you don't have a valid ticket, you are liable for a fine. End of story. If they let every one off with the falling asleep excuse, we'd all be doing it, and no one would bother paying the full fare to their destination, even if in some cases the excuse is true.

Really? I suppose it could be an easy enough appeal though.

"Please check the CCTV footage, in it you should hopefully see that I fell asleep and woke up in a slight panic as the train was at X, I hope that this would indicate that I did not intend to travel an extra half hour out of my way without paying" etc

nino1

P_1 wrote: »

Really? I suppose it could be an easy enough appeal though.

"Please check the CCTV footage, in it you should hopefully see that I fell asleep and woke up in a slight panic as the train was at X, I hope that this would indicate that I did not intend to travel an extra half hour out of my way without paying" etc

You really think they would go to the effort of checking CCTV and judging whether somebody looked in a panic or not?!!
Why would they?
The rules are simple, no ticket, pay a fine.

P_1

nino1 wrote: »

You really think they would go to the effort of checking CCTV and judging whether somebody looked in a panic or not?!!
Why would they?
The rules are simple, no ticket, pay a fine.

Well to get technical you are entitled to

a - request to view any recordings made of you under data protection
b - travel from a to b via c even if c is beyond point b

partyatmygaff

pointsman wrote: »

Sutton's a different story all together. If it was I doing the check and you told me that, I would assume your chancing your arm. How could you defend the image? To conclude, the fine hasn't been filled in properly. All boxes and fields should have been completed by the checker. You could appeal this on the grounds that it wasn't carried out properly and therefore becomes invalid. I was always taught on the job to fill out all parts. Have IE got your details? If not, I'd forget about it personally....Thank god I'm not in rpu anymore!

Will they actually annul a fine if the inspector didn't fill out the notice properly?

ProudDUB

P_1 wrote: »

Really? I suppose it could be an easy enough appeal though.

"Please check the CCTV footage, in it you should hopefully see that I fell asleep and woke up in a slight panic as the train was at X, I hope that this would indicate that I did not intend to travel an extra half hour out of my way without paying" etc

Don't be silly. If that worked, what is to stop everyone from pretending to nod off & wake up in a panic when they realized they missed their stop? I don't think you'd need to be Meryl Streep or Daniel Day Lewis to pull that one off !

circadian

There should be fare adjustment available at every station. Almost every major city I've visited has had this on their metro systems.

Losty Dublin

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Will they actually annul a fine if the inspector didn't fill out the notice properly?

Unless it's substantially wrong (totally incorrect stations, dates or information, say) then it's very unlikely to be annulled.

P_1

ProudDUB wrote: »

Don't be silly. If that worked, what is to stop everyone from pretending to nod off & wake up in a panic when they realized they missed their stop? I don't think you'd need to be Meryl Streep or Daniel Day Lewis to pull that one off !

I think you may have gotten me wrong. I'm talking about people who make genuine mistakes not people who set out to defraud the system.

What I was asking was if there was anything built into the system to account for people who make genuine mistakes

partyatmygaff

P_1 wrote: »

What I was asking was if there was anything built into the system to account for people who make genuine mistakes

As it stands, it seems they're more interested in receiving easy lump sums of €100 rather than actually protecting revenue streams. A pretty short-sighted and foolish way of dealing with things if you ask me.

Fair enough if they take a hardline approach against people who go out of their way to defraud them or people who trespass or vandalise their trains.

But all that said, I don't see how accusing customers of fraud and then asking them for €100 is going to be of much help to them. Generally speaking, honest people who feel they've been treated poorly become those who speak out the loudest against them. Irritating, being antagonistic and making "enemies" out of your customers is rarely a good idea and that's something that Irish Rail don't seem grasp from the stories i've heard. Even people who could well have avoided any hassle and went out of their way to be honest have been treated like scum and fined by Irish Rail.

corktina

how do you tell genuine mistakes from deliberate fraud?

P_1

corktina wrote: »

how do you tell genuine mistakes from deliberate fraud?

Common sense I guess.

Losty Dublin

P_1 wrote: »

Common sense I guess.

Is this common sense lark meant to apply to just staff or the passengers as well?

P_1

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Is this common sense lark meant to apply to just staff or the passengers as well?

Both to be honest

corktina

P_1 wrote: »

Common sense I guess.

please elaborate!

partyatmygaff

corktina wrote: »

how do you tell genuine mistakes from deliberate fraud?

When it's patently clear that it's a mistake and the customer is not trying to commit fraud. For example... someone who cannot buy a ticket at their starting point who gets fined when they attempt to buy a ticket at their destination or the huge plethora of problems revolving around the redundant student travelcard.

A good "track record" (If you'll excuse the pun :P), the circumstances and the nature of the issue. For example, a customer who uses a particular train regularly and is well known to the staff serving the line who makes a slight oversight or mistake (especially mistakes that do not lead to any loss of revenue for Irish Rail) should not be treated as a scumbag trying to defraud the system. They should be sensible about these things and deal with each case in the context of the circumstances and the customer's previous dealings with the company.

A company who treat their customers like scumbags and look for any excuse to try and penalise them with a complete disregard for whether or not a penalty is just or warranted is ridiculously short-sighted and shows a complete lack of strategy. I don't see the business sense in gaining €100 at the expense of losing the loyalty of a regular customer who not only becomes liable to change over to another service at any minute but will probably go out of their way to badmouth the company at every opportunity they get.

P_1

corktina wrote: »

please elaborate!

Sorry was posting from the phone last time so please excuse the short reply.

I guess common sense would mean:

If you usually travel between station X and station Y and can prove this by showing that you live or work near those stations then a mistake on your part could be explained by that.

If you're taking the piss and trying to get a freebie then you have no excuses.

hfallada

If they didnt fill in your name,address etc. but just have you a slip how are they going to contact you about the fine.

If you don't get a letter in post didn't pay it. Just appeal if you do. You don't have anything to lose