Paid Parking for all Staff & Students

OmegaRed10

I believe there are plans for several further car park closures over the summer too - the car park between Heath Sciences and the old Student Centre is being turned into green space, the Observatory car park is being turned into tennis courts and the church car park has been turned into a vehicle compound

Raphael

As I understand it, the list of charges circulating is based on the ones mentioned in the survey, and the results to that survey were an awful lot of "Ehhh.. Permits?" According to the May 2013 update (http://www.ucd.ie/building/code/commuting/docs/current_status_of_car_parking.pdf)

"The charging model is likely to include a number of variables rather than just the hourly rate to address issues highlighted through the consultation process."

Read: Permits. Though I'm disappointed no information came out from the meeting.

Also of note is the fact that they (apparently) got told by the NTA that unless they scrapped free parking, they wouldn't get planning permission for the multi-story, meaning the campus would fall down from the 3600 spaces it's capped at to 2000. And given how bad things are now...

Tayto2000

Hah the tennis courts were originally at the Observatory years ago before going to beside Belfield House, that's funny to hear they're going back there!

The Health Sciences car park becoming green space is dependent on the first multi storey being built beside the student centre I would have thought... Wouldn't be out of character for UCD to take away the spaces before building the multistorey though.

€2.50 a day is pretty good compared to most car parks in town. Don't forget they're also under pressure from the NTA to reduce car numbers coming in. Probably not going to help with the park and riders unless there's a way to identify staff and students, I'd be happy to combine €2.50 a day with a bus ticket if I was working in the city centre. Thinking about it, there must be a way to differentiate to allow visitors to be charged the higher rate. Registered number plates and ANPR perhaps...

I'd guess it'll end up going the way Sam says, they're trying to put this through while students are away. I'd bet on a deal with staff and shunting the financial burden onto students and visitors. That said, this is assuming the staff and/or unions can put up enough resistance. As I've said previously, the GA obviously feel confident in pushing this one through, the near total lack of engagement with the unions is pretty good evidence of this.

@Rapael: The list circulating was allegedly given to the unions by UCD management afaik although it does look like one of the early draft funding models from the series of presentations on the subject previously. The unions refused to take part in the consultation phase as it would constitute tacit acceptance of the charging for parking premise. Take with salt for now I guess.

Raphael

If they're proposing different visitor/student rates, they must have a way of differentiating in mind. Else it's pointless.

I imagine what we'll see is free to cheap permits for staff, and maybe cheap to reasonable permits for students. Which sounds perfectly reasonable.

Sam the Sham

Tayto2000 wrote: »

I'd guess it'll end up going the way Sam says, they're trying to put this through while students are away. I'd bet on a deal with staff and shunting the financial burden onto students and visitors. That said, this is assuming the staff and/or unions can put up enough resistance. As I've said previously, the GA obviously feel confident in pushing this one through, the near total lack of engagement with the unions is pretty good evidence of this.

Actually, the GA aren't pushing it through. Management are. The GA are just their willing lickspittle, as they are in all such matters. And now the GA have apparently grown a pair and told management to engage with the unions. We'll see what this means.

Staff anger about this (coming on the heels of the coming pay cut and/or increased work hours in Haddington Road) is pretty much white hot IMO. The fact that all three campus unions are united in opposition also indicates to me that they are not going to back down and will be accommodated. And that's because they are right: not only is this a change in their conditions of employment, it's totally regressive in that lower-paid staff will be paying a higher proportion of their income for parking than will higher-paid staff.

The path of least resistance is clearly to give staff annual permits. The part of the May 2013 document that quotes the NTA says only this: "In the absence of car parking demand management (eg paid parking, parking permits)..." The "e.g." is important here: these are examples of demand management. They are not synonyms for it. So to give staff parking permits for free is to "manage demand," especially if it is accompanied by charging students.

And this is the key: demand has to be managed. Everyone knows that. The question is how one goes about managing demand. UCD management's idea is that demand will be managed in the following way: those who can afford to pay will get parking and those who cannot can go pound sand. If these means that bankers using the campus as a park and ride lot are accommodated while secretaries who work for UCD are not, well, so be it. It's not a fair way of managing demand even if it is the way that raises the most revenue (which is the real idea here).

By the way, Eamonn Ceannt's original letter (attached to the OP in this thread) is a masterpiece of misdirection. The second paragraph reads as follows:

The Governing Authority has decided that with the development of the new [commuting] facilities, the current parking arrangements will cease. Paid parking for staff and students is being introduced to both the Belfield and Blackrock Campuses to fund the facilities from next September. The Governing Authority has also decided that staff and students will be treated equally and therefore the base parking charge will be 50 cents an hour.

Read it carefully and ask yourself: what does it say that the GA decided? Only the first and last sentences refer to what the GA decided. Namely:

1) that the current parking arrangements will cease, and
2) that staff and students will be treated equally.

The second sentence is a classic example of abuse of the passive voice. Paid parking "is being introduced . . . to fund the facilities." It doesn't say who is introducing it but inattentive readers might be led to believe that it is the GA. In fact, the unspecified agent of this action is not the GA but UCD management: they are the ones who are introducing paid parking. But they want you to think their hands were tied by the GA. The last sentence also contains passive voice ("the base charge will be...") but, again, the decision about parking charges isn't ascribed to the GA.

Of course, it's hard to know what the GA may or may not have said given that, thanks to Hugh Brady's regime, they no longer publish official minutes. Think about that one for a minute: the governing authority of a public institution funded mostly by taxpayer money doesn't feel the need to communicate to the public the official minutes of its meetings. But I digress...

Rad!

If workers are parking in UCD and bussing or walking on to their work destinations, what does this tell you?

It suggests to me that free parking is not considered a natural right of employment in many workplaces, especially not in large institutions.

Personally, I think we already have too much space allocated to car parking in UCD.

NU8

Has there been any change to the plan to introduce paid parking in Blackrock? I understand the need to do something with the parking situation in Belfield but Smurfit has an oversupply of spaces. On what grounds would they be introducing paid parking there?

asdf1234

Rad! wrote: »

If workers are parking in UCD and bussing or walking on to their work destinations, what does this tell you?

It suggests to me that free parking is not considered a natural right of employment in many workplaces, especially not in large institutions.

Personally, I think we already have too much space allocated to car parking in UCD.

It "tells" you that driving in towards the centre of the capital city of a country at rush hour is generally not advisable, but then again it shouldn't need to tell you that unless you're a half wit.

And when you say you "think" we already have too much space allocated to car parking in UCD, what do you mean by "think"? Do you mean you are basing your presumption on a careful analysis of the population, taking into account factors such as distance traveled, property prices in the area being prohibitive or otherwise towards staff living locally, and the current levels and origins of public transport available versus daily travel trends amongst the university populace? Or did you just mean you plucked a notion out of your hole and went with it?

Tayto2000

Really? Anytime I've been to Blackrock it's been full except for pay and display. I heard they have a worse park and ride problem than Belfield becaus eof the Dart station going pay and display...

NU8

Tayto2000 wrote: »

Really? Anytime I've been to Blackrock it's been full except for pay and display. I heard they have a worse park and ride problem than Belfield becaus eof the Dart station going pay and display...

I'm only really in at 9 in the morning or 3 or so in the evening but I've never had any problem at all. The odd occasions when I have come in at other times have been fine too. Don't think park and riders are a huge issue but I might be wrong.

bbuzz

I was in Blackrock 6 days a week up until last month and I've never seen the whole place full. It does get busy when there's an exam on though.

Park and ride doesn't seem to be too much of an issue either; people who park and ride will park all the way down at the end of the main car park near the gate and it's 5-10 cars max (it's pretty clear since that end of the car park is virtually always empty).

I'd say it would be too much of a revenue raising opportunity not to charge for parking in Smurfit though.

On another note, I heard that U-Cards would be used to pay for parking: so if you use your U-Card it's 50c/hr, if you use coins its more expensive.

NU8

bbuzz wrote: »

I was in Blackrock 6 days a week up until last month and I've never seen the whole place full. It does get busy when there's an exam on though.

Park and ride doesn't seem to be too much of an issue either; people who park and ride will park all the way down at the end of the main car park near the gate and it's 5-10 cars max (it's pretty clear since that end of the car park is virtually always empty).

I'd say it would be too much of a revenue raising opportunity not to charge for parking in Smurfit though.

Couldn't agree more. It really annoys me that they're using the lack of parking in Belfield as an excuse to rip off Smurfit students for no good reason.

ironclaw

Given the relative little expense of an ANPR system and SISWeb, I don't understand why they can't do annual permits. Then just give 75% of the car parks to permit holders. You could even add to the permit issue a system based on distance to UCD, car pool commitments etc. Wouldn't be overly hard to implement but I suppose the chance of hard cash is just too good to pass up.

eoin2nc

When I start work in September I wont be supplied with a parking space, and if I wish to park elsewhere I will have to pay for it. Why should employees in UCD be any different?

n2o

eoin2nc wrote: »

When I start work in September I wont be supplied with a parking space, and if I wish to park elsewhere I will have to pay for it. Why should employees in UCD be any different?

Because when you start working in September it won't be part of your T&C's of employment. However, if you've had free parking since the sixties then it becomes a de facto T&C. Any change to T&C's is an industrial relations matter.

ironclaw

n2o wrote: »

Because when you start working in September it won't be part of your T&C's of employment. However, if you've had free parking since the sixties then it becomes a de facto T&C. Any change to T&C's is an industrial relations matter.

I don't think anything becomes a de facto T&C unless its actually in your terms of contract. All parking in UCD is 'at one's own risk' so its a convenience for staff, not a contractual arrangement.

Either way, paying for parking is lunacy. I'll be glad to be out of UCD soon enough, the air of "money machine" that it is makes me despise the place.

asdf1234

eoin2nc wrote: »

When I start work in September I wont be supplied with a parking space, and if I wish to park elsewhere I will have to pay for it. Why should employees in UCD be any different?

Are your new employers charging you for parking? Whats that? No they're not? Everything you're saying is irrelevant? Oh right, thanks for sharing anyway.

n2o

ironclaw wrote: »

I don't think anything becomes a de facto T&C unless its actually in your terms of contract. All parking in UCD is 'at one's own risk' so its a convenience for staff, not a contractual arrangement.

Either way, paying for parking is lunacy. I'll be glad to be out of UCD soon enough, the air of "money machine" that it is makes me despise the place.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/contracts_of_employment/contract_of_employment.html

In addition, custom and practice in a particular workplace may form part of a contract. An example would be a particular level of overtime pay for employees.

That will be the argument anyway.

Iwannahurl

ironclaw wrote: »

paying for parking is lunacy.

UCD has obviously done a poor job of educating both staff and students about the economics of parking.

Clark Kerr was right about parking for the faculty, except that these days (in Ireland anyway) it's not only the staff but the students who expect to be provided with parking as some sort of basic right.

ironclaw

Iwannahurl wrote: »

UCD has obviously done a poor job of educating both staff and students about the economics of parking.

Clark Kerr was right about parking for the faculty, except that these days (in Ireland anyway) it's not only the staff but the students who expect to be provided with parking as some sort of basic right.

While I appreciate the insight, America is not a good case study in my opinion. It has a car culture far beyond what we have here. Public transport is not only not considered, its barely ever utilised by those other than in the lower end of the socio-economic segment (No insult implied to those that do) Owning a car is a social statement and from experience in the States its not uncommon for someone not know what bus / train to take, as they wouldn't even considered it. Ireland greatly differs in this respect as all walks of society, at least in Dublin, would consider public transport. The cost of which is the biggest driving force against its use.

From my standpoint, I'd be happy to pay a reasonable permit (i.e. €100 per year) and get decent parking facilities in return without those parking and riding into town. All walks of student contribute to the UCD family in various ways and I feel the least the college could do is not attempt a €300+ extortion of those where public transport is not a viable option. UCD could lead the way with car pooling initiatives etc if they were so inclined. But they arn't, its all about the money in my opinion.

asdf1234

Iwannahurl wrote: »

UCD has obviously done a poor job of educating both staff and students about the economics of parking.

Clark Kerr was right about parking for the faculty, except that these days (in Ireland anyway) it's not only the staff but the students who expect to be provided with parking as some sort of basic right.

UCLA has a parking space to student ratio of approximately 1:2 and a subsidised public transport network providing unlimited use of public transport (including metro), whereas UCD has a planned parking space to student ratio of approximately 1:10 and has seen several of its public transport links suffer significant reductions in service over the past few years.

Tayto2000

USA is not great for a direct comparison but the factors at play are definitely common to both situations. It's not necessary to go beyond Ireland and the UK to find places that have at least addressed the issue if not solved it.

In that paper, Prof Shoup refers to the two main methods of managing parking: "The political approach relies on administrative rules that allocate parking according to status and need, while the economic approach relies on markets." The problem we have here is that neither approach has been applied here yet beyond basic parking level controls ie clamping. Using an adminstrative system like permits/barriers/anpr registration before looking at charging would have at least shown the benefits that could be achieved by introducing a bit of fairness to the arrangement as well as getting an actual read on the park and ride situation. Other colleges have already implemented similar systems.

Raphael

As a matter of interest, does anyone else think this might be the current plan:

1) Announce paid parking, no permits.
2) Induce mass protest and anger
3) Make a statement along the lines of "After consultation with unions and yadayada, we'll be bringing permits in alongside pay parking for staff and/or students"
4) Watch as the unions and protestors clap themselves on the back and everyone's really happy with their permits, even though they're now paying for what was free parking.

It's the exact same shell game that's been played before with the registration fee, so they're well familiar with the trick.

RayCarley

I don't believe this has been posted, but this is the final report about parking: http://www.ucd.ie/building/code/commuting/docs/final_report_20_jun_2013.pdf

ironclaw

Iwannahurl wrote: »

No question on distance travelled. Why?

Without being funny, I doubt many people actually know how far (distance) they travel to and from in the morning. 'Sure i was in traffic for 40 mins' etc. I know people that 'commute' as close as Stillorgan and Foxrock to UCD. Hence why I think permits should be introduced on a sliding scale based on distance. The Dublin Bus network is extremely well mapped at this stage if someone wanted to work out if someone could qualify for a 'cheap' permit. Add car pooling in there and I think you have a really good permit system.

bbuzz

RayCarley wrote: »

I don't believe this has been posted, but this is the final report about parking: http://www.ucd.ie/building/code/commuting/docs/final_report_20_jun_2013.pdf

The report advises against parking charges in Blackrock (there's a few reasons listed), and says there will eventually be a multi storey car park near the main entrance (where the running track was I'm guessing).

Sam the Sham

ironclaw wrote: »

Without being funny, I doubt many people actually know how far (distance) they travel to and from in the morning. 'Sure i was in traffic for 40 mins' etc. I know people that 'commute' as close as Stillorgan and Foxrock to UCD. Hence why I think permits should be introduced on a sliding scale based on distance. The Dublin Bus network is extremely well mapped at this stage if someone wanted to work out if someone could qualify for a 'cheap' permit. Add car pooling in there and I think you have a really good permit system.

I agree. It is scandalous that no attempt was made in this report to find out where people are driving from. It might well turn out that if you cut out all of those commuting by car from within a 1 or 2-mile radius the "parking problem" would resolve itself.

The other bit of completely unjustified madness is the simple decree from on high by the GA that "staff and students must be treated equally." No rationale is given or has been given for this anywhere. It's like it was just chiseled onto a tablet by God or something. Why should that be the case? I've said it before but it bears repeating: if a student can't find parking, that student might miss a class; if a lecturer can't find parking, every student in the class misses the class.

smunchkins

They started work on putting the signs and the meters in in Richview yesterday. Apparently they will be in UCD 3-4 months doing it.

Tayto2000

That's covered in the annual commuting survey.

Hasn't really been mentioned yet, but is there any indication as to how many cars on campus belong to students living in Res? I know the car park up at Roebuck seems to have a few long term occupants during term time.

Cody Pomeray

smunchkins wrote: »

They started work on putting the signs and the meters in in Richview yesterday. Apparently they will be in UCD 3-4 months doing it.

3-4 months for signage and meters?

Reminds me of the time at least 2 IT guys spent about a month updating the software on 10 computers.