Replacing a small lawn

brokenarms

I have a grass area of around 25 square meters out back. Untidy and untrimmed after winter. The lawn was never right and quite lumpy with moss becoming a big problem .

Camera is pointing south.



I have spayed it with Fast Acting Roundup yesterday .

I hope to dig a soak pit in the center to stop the garden becoming waterlogged in winter and build a raised bed about 50cm high up the left hand side for veg.

I was hoping for some hints and tip here on time scale and methods.

I want grass that is as good as golf coarse and perfectly level. Im not into golf, I just love a neat garden.

I was thinking of using sleepers for the raised bed and filling it with topsoil.


Where do I go from here. Should I just wait for the round up to work before I start digging?

paddy147

brokenarms wrote: »

I have a grass area of around 25 square meters out back. Untidy and untrimmed after winter. The lawn was never right and quite lumpy with moss becoming a big problem .

Camera is pointing south.



I have spayed it with Fast Acting Roundup yesterday .

I hope to dig a soak pit in the center to stop the garden becoming waterlogged in winter and build a raised bed about 50cm high up the left hand side for veg.

I was hoping for some hints and tip here on time scale and methods.

I want grass that is as good as golf coarse and perfectly level. Im not into golf, I just love a neat garden.

I was thinking of using sleepers for the raised bed and filling it with topsoil.


Where do I go from here. Should I just wait for the round up to work before I start digging?

No need to break your back and dig it all up.

Hire a petrol powered turf cutter from Sam Hire or JW Hire for 35 euro for a day and it will cut the lawn up into long narrow lengths.

You will have that entire lawn cut up in an around an hour.

Then simply roll up the lawn strips and take them off to the recycling centre,or throw it into a skip that you may be getting in.:).



Simples.

brokenarms

Ahh . good idea but Im not sure it will work for me. The only access to the garden is through the front door, through the living room then kitchen.

I think if I remove old sod and soil I will have to build it up again. Lots of carrying through the house. She would go nuts.

I was thinking of a petrol rotovator to chop it up and then using a rake. Is that the way its done?

Im going to rob your black sleeper idea though. What sort of paint is that?

paddy147

brokenarms wrote: »

Ahh . good idea but Im not sure it will work for me. The only access to the garden is through the front door, through the living room then kitchen.

I think if I remove old sod and soil I will have to build it up again. Lots of carrying through the house. She would go nuts.

I was thinking of a petrol rotovator to chop it up and then using a rake. Is that the way its done?

Im going to rob your black sleeper idea though. What sort of paint is that?

Turf cutter is narrow enoigh to be wheeled through those doors.;):D

A small 5 hp rotivator wouldnt go through the grass and ground on its own though..

You would need to hand dig it 1st,and then use a rotivator on it.

The bigger 10hp rotivator would fly through it,but you wont get it through the house as its wider than a door frame.:(


The black stain is called Ridgeway...water based and safe to plants and animals.:)

2 coats of it and you are good to go.

brokenarms

I have run into a hurdle .



I want to sort out the drainage at the rear of the garden so I started digging . i was going to fill these two pits with stone to get the water down past the subsoil .

But when digging the far hole I have come across land drain pipe covered in stone already.



That is a road and path behind the headge which is a little higher. Is it possible that the road is being drained into my land . If so, is that allowed?

Or could my builder have put the drains in . But where does it lead?? Why is the rear od my garden always damp?

Im not sure how to proceed if I want to correct the problem.

redser7

How much money do you have to spend and how much time are you willing to put into it? Dont dig any more holes until you have a nailed down plan.
I wouldnt go removing the turf, it's liekly to be the best topsoil you have.

brokenarms

redser7 wrote: »

How much money do you have to spend and how much time are you willing to put into it? Dont dig any more holes until you have a nailed down plan.
I wouldnt go removing the turf, it's liekly to be the best topsoil you have.

The plan was simple.

Kill the lawn. (Done) Dig two holes and refill with stone to improve drainage .

Rotovate till and sow a new lawn.

Enjoy new grass this summer.

I was not planning on spending more than a few bags of washed stone and machine rental.

redser7

Is the grass definately dead? I would have tried improving what you have first. Treat the moss, then a heavy raking to remove the dead moss and also the thatch. Then aerate the lawn with a fork or hollow tined aerator to improve drainage and to help avoid moss returning. Then apply a topdressing of compost with seed mixed in. Followed by proper cutting and feeding. I think sometimes people go for the nuclear option when it's not necessary. I suggest you stop where you are and have a think about it before you go too far.

From the photos your lawn just looks tired and in need of some TLC and maintenance.

jimini0

brokenarms wrote: »

I have run into a hurdle .



I want to sort out the drainage at the rear of the garden so I started digging . i was going to fill these two pits with stone to get the water down past the subsoil .

But when digging the far hole I have come across land drain pipe covered in stone already.



That is a road and path behind the headge which is a little higher. Is it possible that the road is being drained into my land . If so, is that allowed?

Or could my builder have put the drains in . But where does it lead?? Why is the rear od my garden always damp?

Im not sure how to proceed if I want to correct the problem.

That pipe is more than likely coming from your sink,shower,gutters.
its piped out there in that yellow pipe(land drainage pipe) and the water is let soak away in your garden.
i have one solution for your grass problem ASTROTURF.

brokenarms

I was talking to a man who did the ground work on the site. He said the site was very wet and they installed land drain pipes but forgets where drained to.

The lawn has been sprayed with roundup and should be dead in the next week. I have been considering this for a few years now as the lawn is very lumpy and after a few years of trying to fix it with filling, it still no right.

I fancy a better quality of grass anyway and a new start. Plus building a raised bed.

I was thinking of digging deeper than the drain pipe and filling with stone . The subsoil is like rock. Im guessing having a 20 ton digger tracking over it all day in the construction period made the sub soil water tight. My garden is not flooding. It is damp and messy during winter though. I just want it a little better. I cant pipe to the gully due to a patio and the gullys go to a storm system in the estate.

brokenarms

Did a little experament to see if the land drain works.

I filled the hole with water. Full pressure from the tap took 1 hour to fill .




Took 5 mins to drain away to nothing.

I know a hose is not where near the amount rain can fall at over the whole garden, but it does indicate that the drains are in fact working. The other hole started to fill also.

So .

Im going to dig a little deeper under the land drain pipe to penetrate more of that horrible clay and replace with stone in the hope of better drainage. I cant think of another option?? Open to options.

redser7

Are you sure you need more drainage? The past year has been terrible for water, no let up, and the water table is high. There have been so many threads lately from people wanting to fix their lawns because of yellow grass, soggy soil and moss. My own lawn is generally very good but is in poor enough shape despite giving it a good work over last autumn. It's just how things are this year. Just trying to save you some heart ache!

jimini0

brokenarms wrote: »

Did a little experament to see if the land drain works.

I filled the hole with water. Full pressure from the tap took 1 hour to fill .




Took 5 mins to drain away to nothing.

I know a hose is not where near the amount rain can fall at over the whole garden, but it does indicate that the drains are in fact working. The other hole started to fill also.

So .

Im going to dig a little deeper under the land drain pipe to penetrate more of that horrible clay and replace with stone in the hope of better drainage. I cant think of another option?? Open to options.

your drainage pipe is working mighty so. your lawn is just sompact and water cant drain through the hard layers.
i had simular problem with a small patch of lawn about 10 m2.
my advice is find out have you any services under your lawn (electrical,sewer,water mains,etc) apart from that yellow pipe if there is not. Then get a big drill with a long 1 inch wide bit and get drilling, down a 12 to 15 inches. With it being a small lawn it should not take more than an hour. then get some sand and spread it out lightly on the grass so its goes into the holes you have drilled then try and sweep up the excess sand.
this is the cheapest and easiest way of doin it i found anyways. It might sound silly but it worked for mine

brokenarms

jimini0 wrote: »

your drainage pipe is working mighty so. your lawn is just sompact and water cant drain through the hard layers.
i had simular problem with a small patch of lawn about 10 m2.
my advice is find out have you any services under your lawn (electrical,sewer,water mains,etc) apart from that yellow pipe if there is not. Then get a big drill with a long 1 inch wide bit and get drilling, down a 12 to 15 inches. With it being a small lawn it should not take more than an hour. then get some sand and spread it out lightly on the grass so its goes into the holes you have drilled then try and sweep up the excess sand.
this is the cheapest and easiest way of doin it i found anyways. It might sound silly but it worked for mine

Thanks. I wonder if I could mix sand into the whole garden to make it less damp. I will be rotovating it anyways so now would be the time.

What type of sand should I use? And how much should I add. 1/4 of a ton maybe?
I have a few bags of horse manure to add as well.

Daithio12

OP there is no such thing as fast acting round up, it's a sales gimmick, roundup takes 10-14 days to work and needs the plant to be actively growing for it to uptake and translocate the weed killer, the key part is "actively growing", at the moment there is no growth, so it can't work at the moment.

Also that is a land drainage pipe and it looks and sounds like there was a good drainage system put in day one, what you can do in the future to assist drainage is to aerate/tine the lawn and spread fine sand to fill the holes after you aerate, a tining machine will punch holes through the hard pan just underneath the surface to about 6/8 inches which is perfectly adequate, no need to get down on your hands and knees and drill 12/18 inches with a 1 inch drill bit as another poster suggested.

brokenarms

Funny enough a have a 1 inch drill bit that is 24" in the shed.

I think after what I have seen that the drainage is indeed fine and I need the aerate the next lawn. But im thinking the grass would have to be established first.

Daithio. The brand name was fast acting roundup. But it did indeed have the exact same ingredients as all the other weed and grass killers. With salt added as well. I got 5 liters for 20 euro in woodies and it was the cheapest there. The moss is dieing and the grass is starting to go now as well. I have cut my grass already this year. It is growing already. So hopefully I can start soon.

WOuld it be wise to rotovate before the grass is dead? I have a few days off work. Also could you recommend a really nice grass seed. Like the type used on golf greens.

padi89

Fescue or bent grass if you want golf green look. Buy it from lawn/turf specialists not DIY stores. Just to know that type lawn takes a lot of regular maintenance and you would want to make sure your topsoil is excellent, a sandy loam type which it doesn't look like from the photos.

redser7

Sorry to be mr negative again but can you put the brakes on and buy this book and read it from cover to cover before you go any further ...
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/0903505487/ref=sr_1_1_olp?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1362046484&sr=1-1&condition=used

Luxury grade lawns take a lot of maintenance. Are you prepared to be watering that type of grass in dry weather, feeding, cutting with a really good mower frequently? Utility grade would still look great but be tougher and withstand drought and desease better.

Plus if you have moss trouble, the chances are you always will to some extent. It will break your heart putting all this effort and money into something that will never meet your expectations. I'd go middle of the road and pick up some of the Lidl mixed grass seed (fescues and rubras).

brokenarms

As my garden is only 20 meters square . I was going to buy one of these.

http://www.argos.ie/static/Product/partNumber/7304400/Trail/searchtext%3ETILLER.htm#tabrev

Got some great reviews .

I cant get a big petrol type one through the house.

redser7

Sorry but that wouldn't be suitable for breaking new ground like your lawn. Tilling is basically turning over soil that has already been cultivated. Like preparing a veg patch after winter for the new season, working in manure or compost etc. It would just bounce off your lawn

paddy147

brokenarms wrote: »

As my garden is only 20 meters square . I was going to buy one of these.

http://www.argos.ie/static/Product/partNumber/7304400/Trail/searchtext%3ETILLER.htm#tabrev

Got some great reviews .

I cant get a big petrol type one through the house.

As per my a previus post of mine on the previous page......A 6hp Honda rotivator will go through a house and throught a standard door ope.

Now unless you have tiny door opes,then you wont have a problem.

40-50 euro a day to hire one out from any builders providers/hire shop.

Hire it out on a Friday and you get to keep it till the MOnday,but you only pay for 1 day (the friday).:)


Buying that Qualcast electric tiller is pointless and a waste of money for what you want to do.

paddy147

If you want golf coarse quality smooth grass,then the key to it is soil prep.

No stones or lumps in/on the surface.The surface soil needs to be of good quality and composition,it also needs to be dead smooth and level,to lay the new grass sod or seed.

brokenarms

Went to a good garden center today with a little box of my soil.

I have a loam type soil which can be improved with sharp sand from the builders yard. But it takes years to get just right apparently.

So . a few bags of the stuff to get started . Rotovator is going to cost 35 euro a day delivered.

I was also advised that I may have the wrong type of grass for the garden which contributes to the whole damp mossy thing.

The rear of the garden is in shade and is genrally the problem area. Grass has always be crap there. There is shady grass alavable from the garden center so I will try it out.

Lawn is slow in dieing . Needs another spray and another week... I am also going to rake out the moss . I dont want to blend it into the rotovator mix.

brokenarms

Over a week on and the grass is not dead . The moss is dead and raked out. Its been raining so I dought the remaining grass will die now. 50% of it is yellow.

I want to get the grass seed sown before the end of the month. So I might have a chance of new grass this summer.

Can I rotovate the old grass or does it have to be removed?

I got some 6x40kg bags of sharp sand to add to the top and sleepers for 17 euro each in Chadwicks.

Also I was thinking of filling the bottom of my raise beds with some sod I have already dug up. I am hoping that the grass won be able to come up through 6" of compost..

redser7

Any chance of some photos? An overall one and then some closeups of the grass?
There's a cold spell on the way so whatever you do hold off on any work for the moment.
Cheers

brokenarms

This is where I started from 1 day after roundup.

This is where I am now. I have dug some sod up and piled it where the raised bed will go. What effect will the frost have? I dont intend to sow till late March early April as i dont think the seed will grow till then anyways.

paddy147

Is that an axe in the picture??


You would be much better and quicker to hire a 6hp petrol turf cutter and do all the lawn in 1 hour....(will easily fit through standard door ope)

Far less mess too.

Trust me on this.:)

If you are placing some sod down at the bottom of the raised bed,place it "upside down" at the bottom of the bed and then shovel in your soil and compost,manure and grit.

redser7

+ 1 on Paddy's post. Would just add, dont work the soil when it's wet. Wait for a dry period. They say if the muck sticks to your boots, it's too wet. When I made a raised bed I turned the sod upside down like Paddy says, but also put a few sheets thickness of wet newspaper on top as an extra barrier to grass or weeds. It will rot after a while but do the job in the meantime.

brokenarms

paddy147 wrote: »

Is that an axe in the picture??


You would be much better and quicker to hire a 6hp petrol turf cutter and do all the lawn in 1 hour....(will easily fit through standard door ope)

Far less mess too.

Trust me on this.:)

If you are placing some sod down at the bottom of the raised bed,place it "upside down" at the bottom of the bed and then shovel in your soil and compost,manure and grit.

To be honest paddy, by the time went to the hire shop, dealt with the man , paid, got it into the car and through the house, I would have it all done by hand. Took 15 mins to do the area in the back end.

My problem is dealing with the sod. Having to carry it through the house(terrice) and finding a place to dispose of it is a bit of a nightmare

I need to know if I can just rotovate the existing into the ground without it sprouting out in the new lawn.
I dont want mixed versions of grass on my finished garden. From what I have read in a book so far is that different breeds of grass will look bad.
Does it look dead enough yet?

redser7

There is great loam in the grass sods, so keep it. Turn it upside down and cover with paper, win win all round

paddy147

Can I ask you this......

If you want golf coarse quality smooth grass,and you are going to sow the grass seed....


How are you planning on getting down to the back shed and back of the garden without trampling accross and leaving foot prints in the leveled and de-stoned/smooth surface???