Future in Suckling Farming

Cultie

400 euros of a margin before fixed costs.

This would not leave much profit.

The journal always goes to gross margin as thy say this is mor comparable amongst farms than net profit I.e gross margin less fixed costs.

As I said before the lads in the better farm programme show good gross margins but have they any profit.

Gross margins will always be positive and with the journals spin along with funding from the factories and teagasc involved it keeps paper sales up, cattle up plies up for the factories and the teagasc empire going strong.

coolshannagh28

We are doing profit monitors on Friday in our beef discussion group I will report back but if its anything like last years it will be a bloodbath ,we gave up long before we got to land costs, most efficient suckler man was spending 5k of a 45k SFP to stay in business.
A range of very impressive farmers in the group some with 70+ smashing cows and deep knowledge of the requirements but mostly dependent on outside jobs or good laying hens to stay afloat.

onyerbikepat

Cultie wrote: »

400 euros of a margin before fixed costs.

This would not leave much profit.

The journal always goes to gross margin as thy say this is mor comparable amongst farms than net profit I.e gross margin less fixed costs.

As I said before the lads in the better farm programme show good gross margins but have they any profit.

Gross margins will always be positive and with the journals spin along with funding from the factories and teagasc involved it keeps paper sales up, cattle up plies up for the factories and the teagasc empire going strong.

That's exectly the way I'm thinking aswell. Nobody wants to rock the boat. This Gross Profit reporting in the Journal every week.....:mad:

rancher

Cultie wrote: »

400 euros of a margin before fixed costs.

This would not leave much profit.

The journal always goes to gross margin as thy say this is mor comparable amongst farms than net profit I.e gross margin less fixed costs.

As I said before the lads in the better farm programme show good gross margins but have they any profit.

Gross margins will always be positive and with the journals spin along with funding from the factories and teagasc involved it keeps paper sales up, cattle up plies up for the factories and the teagasc empire going strong.

Wouldn't agree, because drystock incomes are so low, a lot of them are second incomes as in part time farmers, wives working etc so these people have the opportunity of reducing tax by raising their fixed costs, I bought a new jeep and I see reiig saying the same as in putting a lot of effort into modernising the farm before he finally goes full time.
How can you compare fixed costs when you factor in things like that where as you can compare variable costs across farms
Journal has always said to aim for 1000/ha, gross margin. they wouldn't say 400 was positive,

Cultie

Has 1000 euros per hectare been achieved?

Not any have and the lads picked were on reasonably good land.

Even if you got 1000 euros per hectare, 100 acres or 40 hectares getting 40,000. Would this cover fixed costs on a full unit if the need for tax avoidance due to off farm incomes was not required?

Miname

rancher wrote: »

Wouldn't agree, because drystock incomes are so low, a lot of them are second incomes as in part time farmers, wives working etc so these people have the opportunity of reducing tax by raising their fixed costs, I bought a new jeep and I see reiig saying the same as in putting a lot of effort into modernising the farm before he finally goes full time.
How can you compare fixed costs when you factor in things like that where as you can compare variable costs across farms
Journal has always said to aim for 1000/ha, gross margin. they wouldn't say 400 was positive,

One lad in our group had just over 1600 and another just under 1800. Its possable to make money you just have work hard at it. I was the lowest in the group that year and it fairly made me realise where i was going wrong. Sorry i should mention both lads were finishing all stock.

rancher

Cultie wrote: »

Has 1000 euros per hectare been achieved?

Not any have and the lads picked were on reasonably good land.

Even if you got 1000 euros per hectare, 100 acres or 40 hectares getting 40,000. Would this cover fixed costs on a full unit if the need for tax avoidance due to off farm incomes was not required?

Surely half of it would cover fixed costs easily, probably a lot less than that

Farmer Pudsey

Loads of farmers take these profit monitors as gospel. The first thing about drystock is that over 50% of the farmers involved are working as well. if they have an anyway decent job if they make a profit they will pay about 35% of the money to revenue between Tax Prsi and USC even at the standard rate of tax and if they are at the high rate they might as well close up shop.

There fore in my opinion there are lies, damm lies, stastics and after that come profit monitors the information that is in them should be taken with a grain of salt. You see some lads that are employed in fairly ordinary jobs changing cars ever two years if the husband/wife is working they will usually have a ver good car to go to work in. These are lifestyle choices as the jeeps you see some farmers drive. Then there is the pony the daughter rides at the local Gymkana which arrive in a 3-4K box that has a shine off it. The grown up son may be driving a small van rather than a car.

A lot of what you see is wealth creation or lifestyle choices rather than drawing income that will be taxed heavily.

rancher

Miname wrote: »

One lad in our group had just over 1600 and another just under 1800. Its possable to make money you just have work hard at it. I was the lowest in the group that year and it fairly made me realise where i was going wrong. Sorry i should mention both lads were finishing all stock.

Are you sure that's not gross output, were they suckler farmers

Cultie

I cannot actually believe that.

Lets say stocked at 2lu per hectare that would basically be a cow plus follower.

400kg dw at 450cent would get 1800 euros. And with .95 calves per cow how could you have a margin of 1800 euros per hectare. Is ther no meal fertiliser or vet costs.

Only way to get this level of margin is to be intensively finishing store to beef cattle in the house and spread their margins over the hectares.

Give us even a rough break down of how you could get 1800 euros er hectare.? Sales per cow, fertiliser, meal and vet per cow included?

Miname

rancher wrote: »

Are you sure that's not gross output, were they suckler farmers

Yeh sorry thats what i should have said.

blue5000

In our group the best performers are finishing all their own calves and buying in either suck calves or weanlings to finish as well. The poor relations are the guys selling weanlings.

Cultie

rancher wrote: »

Surely half of it would cover fixed costs easily, probably a lot less than that

Not a mission. Half would not cove it. Fixed costs would be a least 30,000.

Which leaves 10,000. Sure if you rented the 100 acres out you would get that.

One thing my advisor said to was that if a lnd rental charge was included in profit monitors may as well shut up shop!

Farmer Pudsey

Cultie wrote: »

Not a mission. Half would not cove it. Fixed costs would be a least 30,000.

Which leaves 10,000. Sure if you rented the 100 acres out you would get that.

One thing my advisor said to was that if a lnd rental charge was included in profit monitors may as well shut up shop!

If you rented it out and got 10k you give anything from 3.5-6K to the tax man unless you had activelty farmed for a few years. Even then you have to be over 40 I think for leasing allowance to apply. On conacre it is fully taxed

bbam

Ah lads..
Are we saying that only part time farmers are making "lifestyle choices". The ongoing negativity towards part time farmers is quite shocking..

I'd love to truly understand what a part time farmer is anyway.. So are we just against lads who have off farm income... how about lads who hang round the farm all day dropping and collecting kids at school and their missus has the off farm income, sure they are a part time farm too as they have the off farm income.. If ye went down to the nuts and bolts of what ye are saying there aren't too many farms that don't have an off farm income of some sorts... Be it jobs drawing silage or cattle or some other little sideline..

Feck Sake lads, grow up !

Miname

Ive just under 100 acres. ive 40 cows calving 20 autumn 10 early spring 10 march (not by choice this year) culls are going out before gluts come (early autumn and march) All bulls are pushed and sold live as weanlings all heifers finished and plain r grades bought and finished along with them as butchers heifers, some sold live depending on trade. one cow per hectare isnt going to get near enough of a return for what i want out of farming. When i started to push up numbers my father said there was no way our ground could carry more no.s but im slowly pushing it out and seeing the results. The main issue i found was finding money to buy fertilizer and pay contractors and such as the year progressed but as no.s pushed i just had to be more organised, a reseeding plan is being incorporated and ive plans for another shed going up. I intend to push a gross output of a lot more than 1800 next year but i have to say my meal bills are ever increasing.
A friend of mine is running one suckler to the acre on mediocre ground, needless to say he hasnt a penny sfp. He is able to make it work.

rancher

bbam wrote: »

Ah lads..
Are we saying that only part time farmers are making "lifestyle choices". The ongoing negativity towards part time farmers is quite shocking..

I'd love to truly understand what a part time farmer is anyway.. So are we just against lads who have off farm income... how about lads who hang round the farm all day dropping and collecting kids at school and their missus has the off farm income, sure they are a part time farm too as they have the off farm income.. If ye went down to the nuts and bolts of what ye are saying there aren't too many farms that don't have an off farm income of some sorts... Be it jobs drawing silage or cattle or some other little sideline..

Feck Sake lads, grow up !

I think that's what I said in my post....part timers, working wives, etc,
Some of these are using the option to reduce taxes

onyerbikepat

Some people talking about Gross profit, some talking about Gross Output. Bit of a difference.

ZETOR_IS_BETTER

Miname wrote: »

All bulls are pushed and sold live as weanlings

I'm currently thinking over what to do with my weanling bulls in the future and was wondering what kind of average weight do you sell them at and how much meal do you feed them to get to that condition.

Miname

bulls are sold between 350-400kg the odd one a bit less. I didnt split it down to bulls and heifers but e60 per calf is what it came into last year and it was 2/3 heifers to bulls. This year im going to creep a small bit to the bulls as soon as they are eating. ive the autumn on ration now and the last ones that calved wont be getting anything for a while yet but i'm going to try and get them on it asap. it suits to have them moved earlier as the dry cows eat a lot less. ive seen a few lads push the heifers from day 1 too but they are usually selling as weanlings.

Mad4simmental

The poor relations are the guys selling weanlings.

That's good one year but not the next. Take the lads that we're getting huge prices for u grade bulls six months ago. If he kept those bulls to feed he wouldn't have been better off. We do need mr Italy exporter IMO to keep good prices for good stock.

just do it

I can't believe lads think the profit monitor doesn't have a roll. How can you improve if you don't have a handle on your figures? As the teagasc monitor its standardised it allows me to benchmark against
- last year
- the sector I'm in
- other sectors e.g. dairy.

I referred to €550/ dairy cow as it is something you can compare against. Now if you set yourself 2 goals (€400/ suckler cow & push stocking rate as much as possible e.g. 2cows/ha ) what's so wrong with that?

blue5000

just do it wrote: »

I can't believe lads think the profit monitor doesn't have a roll. How can you improve if you don't have a handle on your figures? As the teagasc monitor its standardised it allows me to benchmark against
- last year
- the sector I'm in
- other sectors e.g. dairy.

I referred to €550/ dairy cow as it is something you can compare against. Now if you set yourself 2 goals (€400/ suckler cow & push stocking rate as much as possible e.g. 2cows/ha ) what's so wrong with that?

Nothing wrong with a profit monitor, it's just the way lads fill them up:pac:. Eg merchant credit, lads might have the bill almost cleared at the beginning of the year, but at the end of last year might still owe a few thousand. So they've written a few cheques to the merchant during the year. They might put 2 cheques towards meal, 1 for hardware and one at the end of the year (when money came in) towards fertiliser. I'm not saying everyone does it that way but it could happen.

Ifac can send the figures over to teagasc, could be some inaccuracies here too. If a lad bought a load of fertiliser at the end of the year but never used it until the following year.......what year does it show up in the PM? Maybe neither year. Opening and closing stocks can get a bit blurry.

Farmer Pudsey

Profit monitors are a usefull tool yes. They show your costs one year to the next and give you an indication of cost against other farmers. However you also have to look deeper into them. Some lads are coming on here quoting them as gospel statint that all lads are losing money. They fail to look at the total picture.

Now I am not saying that farmers are making serious money however lads can be losing money on paper but still be profitable. Two of my childern do a good bit of work opn the farm. I pay them and it appeears as wages on the accounts. They use this to part fund there 3rd level education now on paper it make the accounts look horrible. However they do the work and I see no reason not to pay them proper rate. It has the benifit of being tax efficient in that they have a bit of a Tax Free Allowance that they can use. It also means that I have to find less money out of other funds to fund there college education. I also have a bit of interest due to repayments on land.Then We are have a fairly modest car CA of about 2K/year. Because the farm is of a modest scale then it makes the figure look horrible but I guess I can live with that as long as i know that there is jingle in the pocket

This is the reason Why I make the ponit that about lies, stastics and profit mopnitors. In reality we all have profitmonitors done by our accountants every year but how many read them. A few years ago I spotted an error by the accountanted, as well there software calulated different to revenue, he commented that I was one of the few farmers who ever questioned him about these issue.

visatorro

Just seen the second half of ear to the ground. What do the beef reckon of his system and opinions on suckler farming. I'm dairying myself but thought he seemed to have a good set up and grasp of things

farmer johnd

Having exited dairying in 2001 and taken up full time employment outside the farm I changed to suckling. I did not have a sufficient block of land close to farm buildings to allow for expansion. I had already built up a 30 cow suckling herd on rented land. IMO suckling is no more than an expensive hobby. It is a total non runner as a means of generating a living wage. Pride and tradition are the only reason that I persisted. But now I feel the day of the traditional continental suckler herd is coming to an end. It is a loss making enterprise being subsided by single farm payments and off farm income. Meat processors may wake up when it is too late. Their raw material will have disappeared.

onyerbikepat

There's 13 Clearance sales advertised on Donedeal in the last 30 days alone. Fellas will be fighting over the weanlings come next autumn.:D

farmer johnd

Unfortunately clearance sales are becoming a common occurrence and I can understand why. The toughest guys will hang in there hoping that things will get better. But the disastrous summer of 2012 and last springs fodder crisis have been the straw that broke the camel's back. I don't intend giving in but I'm not sure how long this can last at current market returns.

Farmer Pudsey

onyerbikepat wrote: »

There's 13 Clearance sales advertised on Donedeal in the last 30 days alone. Fellas will be fighting over the weanlings come next autumn.:D

At the end of the day any farmer/finisher can only pay so much for cattle. Fellas may be fighting over them but after a years or two losses they will exit . most traders will move to other product that offer more value.

Over the last two year we had the highes Beef prices ever. Were sucklers profitable, if not they never will be

blue5000

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

At the end of the day any farmer/finisher can only pay so much for cattle. Fellas may be fighting over them but after a years or two losses they will exit . most traders will move to other product that offer more value.

Over the last two year we had the highes Beef prices ever. Were sucklers profitable, if not they never will be

Pudsey there is a bit of a difference between profitable sucklers and profitable beef finishing.

Brown Podzol

blue5000 wrote: »

Nothing wrong with a profit monitor, it's just the way lads fill them up:pac:. Eg merchant credit, lads might have the bill almost cleared at the beginning of the year, but at the end of last year might still owe a few thousand. So they've written a few cheques to the merchant during the year. They might put 2 cheques towards meal, 1 for hardware and one at the end of the year (when money came in) towards fertiliser. I'm not saying everyone does it that way but it could happen.

Ifac can send the figures over to teagasc, could be some inaccuracies here too. If a lad bought a load of fertiliser at the end of the year but never used it until the following year.......what year does it show up in the PM? Maybe neither year. Opening and closing stocks can get a bit blurry.

I'm in dairying, only dabble a bit in bull beef, but I always find a three year rolling average of the PM to be more pertinent. Gets over to a certain extent the prepayments and accruals,carry over stocks the delayed payment of reps and SFP etc. and different marketing strategies of stock.

on the river

Suckler farming especially on small farms are not viable. with A.I , VET FEES ,Silage and machinery costs the small farmer is taking a big chunk from their SFP. The reality is without the EU grants and subsides the small farmer would be long gone. the question is how long can they hold out ?

moy83

on the river wrote: »

Suckler farming especially on small farms are not viable. with A.I , VET FEES ,Silage and machinery costs the small farmer is taking a big chunk from their SFP. The reality is without the EU grants and subsides the small farmer would be long gone. the question is how long can they hold out ?

I'm sure some suckler farmers are profitable and can continue .
Some have made a nice bit of investment in their farms and maybe quite profitable when buildings , land and slurry storage is paid for .
Others are at it regardless of profit and will continue on wether or which .
Costs are a major thing that we could tighten up on alot on some farms , there are suckler farmers around me with farms that dairy cows wouldnt pay for !

Farmer Pudsey

moy83 wrote: »

I'm sure some suckler farmers are profitable and can continue .
Some have made a nice bit of investment in their farms and maybe quite profitable when buildings , land and slurry storage is paid for .
Others are at it regardless of profit and will continue on wether or which .
Costs are a major thing that we could tighten up on alot on some farms , there are suckler farmers around me with farms that dairy cows wouldnt pay for !

and machinery

moy83

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

and machinery

I was meaning machinery , jeeps and trailers .
A lad beside us with four mud fat suckler cows and an ass in the front lawn is after buying a brand new 2 cow box . I think it was just shy of 4k . All as I can say is that the FAS scheme is a great job

coolshannagh28

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

and machinery

Pudsey I think we are fellow luddites

on the river

moy83 wrote: »

I'm sure some suckler farmers are profitable and can continue .
Some have made a nice bit of investment in their farms and maybe quite profitable when buildings , land and slurry storage is paid for .
Others are at it regardless of profit and will continue on wether or which .
Costs are a major thing that we could tighten up on alot on some farms , there are suckler farmers around me with farms that dairy cows wouldnt pay for !

what part of galway are you living ???

moy83

on the river wrote: »

what part of galway are you living ???

On the way to connemara . Where are you based

on the river

moy83 wrote: »

On the way to connemara . Where are you based

Dunmore direction . i doubt the land is good where your living. how can you make a profit ?

Username John

on the river wrote: »

Dunmore direction . i doubt the land is good where your living. how can you make a profit ?

Jesus, don't sugar coat it for him anyways...

moy83

on the river wrote: »

Dunmore direction . i doubt the land is good where your living. how can you make a profit ?

I have a job that just about makes a profit ! The father is at home farming but he is semi retired from it and not too worrid about profit from farming anymore . We have bits of everything here and what I find leaves a few quid is buying nice heifer weanlings and selling them calved . But I dont do much of that really , just when the opportunity arises .

grassroot1

With regard to machinery and new sheds etc , there has to be enough profit in suckler farming for reasonable investment, the problem is the cost of keeping the suckler cow is too high for what she can return. I am finding along with other suckler to weanling men, how long can I keep the cow on the farm with the present returns.

moy83

Username John wrote: »

Jesus, don't sugar coat it for him anyways...

I wouldnt want to be sensitive

Robson99

on the river wrote: »

Dunmore direction . i doubt the land is good where your living. how can you make a profit ?

Jasus give him a break. Its hardly the golden vale between Dunmore and Cloonfad is it

Conmaicne Mara

moy83 wrote: »

On the way to connemara . Where are you based

Wait until he get's as far as me

moy83

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Wait until he get's as far as me

We are only in the ha' penny place Con

TITANIUM.

on the river wrote: »

Dunmore direction . i doubt the land is good where your living. how can you make a profit ?

A-HOLE

on the river

TITANIUM. wrote: »

A-HOLE

what do you mean ?

TITANIUM.

on the river wrote: »

what do you mean ?

The A stands for ass!!!!!!!

on the river

TITANIUM. wrote: »

The A stands for ass!!!!!!!

whats your reason ?